Roll turn over

[snow white]

Hi lads i normaly reload using crimp finnish but i have loads of once fired 20 bore cases i want to put roll turn on them tried the other day and thay did not look right think i had to much case above the shot card can somebody please tell me how much case is neaded above the shot card to make nice finnish.

                                                         Thanks for looking tony

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Tony, the rolled turn over will not be as efficient as a 6 star crimp.

[snow white]

I now that but the 20 bore cases i have dont recrimp very well i end up haveing to cut them open to get the powder and primers wads out.

Its a pain in the a..... so was thinking the way to go would be roll turn.

                          

[Old farrier]

Space of about the thickness of the card should do it 

you’re probably going to have to pack your shot up a bit anything from over powder cards to Cheerios has been used or trim the cases 

all the best 

of 

[snow white]

Cutting cases down to about 60mm as thay are 69/70mm long and will reduce the wad hight to suit will also reduce shot load from 28g to 26g just to make it all fit the case it was the roll lenght i wanted

                          Big thanks to Old Farrier.

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, snow white said:

Hi lads i normaly reload using crimp finnish but i have loads of once fired 20 bore cases i want to put roll turn on them tried the other day and thay did not look right think i had to much case above the shot card can somebody please tell me how much case is neaded above the shot card to make nice finnish.

                                                         Thanks for looking tony

I generally use up to  1/4 " but i only use hand rto's in sizes from 410 to 10 bore and also cut cases to fit

Edited December 3, 2017 by islandgun

[Walker570]

I used to have an old hand turned 12 gauge roll turner over tool and it never failed. Today I cannot get a good job done trying to roll turn over 410s with all the modern fangled stuff.  I know, it's got to be me.

[6.5x55SE]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Tony, the rolled turn over will not be as efficient as a 6 star crimp.

Why !!!!!

Only last night i loaded some 20ga Steel rather than empty 3 cases out i 3 frangible disk's on top of the shot run a blade around case took 2 disk's out a Rolled. Those 3 cartridges killed a Teal and 2 Greylag just as efficient as the star crimped cartridges

[snow white]

I have made a case trimer i can cut hundred down to size in a hour.

The reason i asked last year made some roll turn 20 and i shot a lot of nice high teal i made some more the other day and could not get turn right i was makeing them to long.

Thanks to Old Farrier and Islandgun i have just made 25 cartriges with there addvice i will try to put photos up bit later.

                                                                Tony

[islandgun]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I used to have an old hand turned 12 gauge roll turner over tool and it never failed. Today I cannot get a good job done trying to roll turn over 410s with all the modern fangled stuff.  I know, it's got to be me.

I bought a new 410 hand turner from Siarm, it works, but prefer vintage ones iv'e had from ebay, 10 20 and 12g  flavours 

[Walker570]

7 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Tony, the rolled turn over will not be as efficient as a 6 star crimp.

I go back to well before six and eight point crimps and cannot remember having any problems with rolled turnovers back then.  In fact when I was no more than six, I remember sitting up at the big pine top kitchen table and re - rolling 12 gauge cartridges for my grandfather after he had carefully opened them and swopped rice for lead. Then out to the cowsheds and lamping for him along the beams. The rice wouldn't break the tiles but marmalised the rats.   I think the six/eight point crimps are just easier to arrange in a big commercial reloading machine than having to have the machine put in a card before finishing. 

[panoma1]

Nowt wrong with a cartridge with a RTO closure! 

[bishop]

19 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Nowt wrong with a cartridge with a RTO closure! 

agreed

[figgy]

The modern frangible discs help with performance in a rolled turn over cartridge. 

[Continental Shooter]

RTO doesn't provide the same resistere as a crimp one, more so if the crimp is spinned over. The loss of pressure might not be as damaging as, potentially the loss of  speed due to the powder not burning efficiently. I am sure I've seen people pulling geese with a bow on the tube...Not entirely sure this is the way to go though. BTW this is physics. Likewise cutting down the case and just reducing the wadding will increase pressure exponentially. There are rules to follow when moving from a recipe that's made for 70mm case into a 67 or 65 case, into a 60mm....Lots of changes. Again, this is physics.  Other than that (and if like others believe in magic), everyone is free to do what they think, from gold shot...?? To 1500 bar loads...

Edited December 3, 2017 by Continental Shooter

[Feltwad]

All you need is 1/8 inch rolled turnover which can be done by removing two thirds of the crimp  or removing all the crimp and reducing the wad thickness .For a good turn over the original turnover tools are the best ,the modern ones that are fixed into a electric drill I find they are to fast and not get a good job.The best cases for a rolled turnover are the old paper cases 

Feltwad

Rolled turnover

Edited December 4, 2017 by Feltwad

[islandgun]

12 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

RTO doesn't provide the same resistere as a crimp one, more so if the crimp is spinned over. The loss of pressure might not be as damaging as, potentially the loss of  speed due to the powder not burning efficiently. I am sure I've seen people pulling geese with a bow on the tube...Not entirely sure this is the way to go though. BTW this is physics. Likewise cutting down the case and just reducing the wadding will increase pressure exponentially. There are rules to follow when moving from a recipe that's made for 70mm case into a 67 or 65 case, into a 60mm....Lots of changes. Again, this is physics.  Other than that (and if like others believe in magic), everyone is free to do what they think, from gold shot...?? To 1500 bar loads...

Right cheers..... Ive been hacking lumps off cases and wads for several years.. might have to re-think now..

 

Had a re-think, Im just cutting down 3" cases and wads to load 2-3/4" loads not using a 3" recipe in a 2-3/4 case...

Edited December 4, 2017 by islandgun

[Continental Shooter]

Or you could just reduce the powder by 0.05g for every 2 mm of tub you're cutting ? that would keep the performance of the 3" without the increase in pressure

[figgy]

Is that 0.05g grams or grains ? Just for clarity. 

[hakapiken]

2 hours ago, figgy said:

Is that 0.05g grams or grains ? Just for clarity. 

Grams

[Walker570]

Re the spinners fitted to a drill press. I agree, too fast even at the slowest pace, so I am at the moment putting together a fitment using the spinner but in a hand turned frame. Using a spare drill chuck to hold the spinner . The chuck on a rod through a couple of small bearings to a handle.  410 by the way.

[snow white]

Why would cutting the wad down increase the prssure explain please.

[figgy]

Less space for the expanding propellant gases to expand into hence increased pressure. 

Same amount of gas but in a smaller area every time you trim more off. 

[snow white]

The wads are stil sitting on over card on top of powder so where does less space come in to it buy cutting them down .

[figgy]

Still less volume to compress the wad shot colum into.