Sadiq Khan London Mayor

[walshie]

I wonder if "remain" had won by a similar margin in the referendum it would be classed as a finite margin or crashing victory? I don't suppose the leave camp would have been crying into their lentils if that had happened. But it didn't. 

I quite enjoy seeing the remainers making absolute fools out of themselves. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by walshie

[poontang]

8 hours ago, Uilleachan said:

You must have special news that the rest of us aren't privy to. 

No special news.

It was clear to anyone paying attention that a vote to leave would mean leaving the single market and customs union. The country voted to leave. The fact that Theresa May is a **** poor negotiator doesn't change the result.

Why do you feel there should be another vote on the single market when we had one last year? 

[old man]

He is just following his own agenda and version of democracy?

Keep on agitating until you get the result personally desired?

Just imagine him with Eurocrat backing?

[Uilleachan]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The EU made it very clear from the outset, you cannot stay in the single market or customs union without free movement of people and ECJ jurisdiction.
And , if youre going to keep all that, we might as well just stay in ! I think not.
The painful grind that is the negotiations, is about tariff free trade, a thing that works better in the EU s favour, yet something they seem to want rather a lot of money for.

You say the vote was won by a finite margin?
So, what do we do, vote again until we have a bigger margin, or a reversal ?
I just count us lucky the vote is even being carried out, Greece, France and Hollands large majority votes got fully ignored, not to mention Irelands revote on the Lisbon treaty.

Two questions the answers to which are a yes and a no. 

The vote was finite, Scotland and NI voted to remain. The result was a 2% majority UK wide to leave the EU and we're leaving. However with a 2% majority and without the whole of the UK behind it the current westminster administration should be looking to a unity position, not charging on with the pick and mix approach that'll lead to the fragmentation and break up of the UK.

I didn't vote for her and nor do I agree with her on 99% of her policy, but I agree with Ruth Davidson on this, indeed you heard it here first; perhaps Ruth was reading this thread 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42236312

[das]

On 04/12/2017 at 16:45, Newbie to this said:

We voted to leave in my area of London. My area is largely working class.

I'm an actual Londoner unlike most of London which is just a load of people from god knows where, calling themselves Londoners. Living in London does not make you a Londoner, being born in London makes you a Londoner. No matter where I decide to live, I will always class myself as a Londoner.

Some people in London no doubt benefit from the EU, but the working class Londoner certainly don't. There's loads of work in London, but it's mainly cheap EU labour doing it. Which drives down wages and the increased population drives the cost of living up.

There's a reason most parts of London vote Labour!

+1

[walshie]

Unfortunately for the persistent whiners who would grab any straw to get the referendum outcome overturned, the wording of the referendum was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?"

There was nothing about individual countries or areas remaining or leaving. 

Obviously a greater percentage of the UK voted to leave. The sooner we are out and all the simpering bad losers wind their necks in, the better. 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, walshie said:

Unfortunately for the persistent whiners who would grab any straw to get the referendum outcome overturned, the wording of the referendum was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?"

There was nothing about individual countries or areas remaining or leaving. 

Obviously a greater percentage of the UK voted to leave. The sooner we are out and all the simpering bad losers wind their necks in, the better. 

Well said

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Unfortunately for the persistent whiners who would grab any straw to get the referendum outcome overturned, the wording of the referendum was "Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?"

There was nothing about individual countries or areas remaining or leaving. 

Exactly....for some reason the whinging snowflake lefties cannot get their head round that they voted as part of the union, not as a nation or otherwise.

[Rewulf]

15 hours ago, Uilleachan said:

Two questions the answers to which are a yes and a no. 

The vote was finite, Scotland and NI voted to remain. The result was a 2% majority UK wide to leave the EU and we're leaving. However with a 2% majority and without the whole of the UK behind it the current westminster administration should be looking to a unity position, not charging on with the pick and mix approach that'll lead to the fragmentation and break up of the UK.

I didn't vote for her and nor do I agree with her on 99% of her policy, but I agree with Ruth Davidson on this, indeed you heard it here first; perhaps Ruth was reading this thread 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42236312

The ref swing was 4 % but that doesnt matter, democracy isnt a perfect system, but thats what we have.
Sometimes with our voting system we dont get the representation we want, again, thats the way it is.
If you feel Scotland should stay in the EU, you need to get lobbying for another indy ref ,and win it this time, again a 10 % majority wanting to stay.

Lots of non EU European countries have soft borders with the EU, its not  a problem there, why should it be in Ireland ?
They have different duties, different VAT levels and completely different costs of living, no problems.
And its been that way since the EU wasnt even a thing.

So what changed ?
Nothings changed, except the EU trying to cause mischief, and to derail the Brexit process.
Do you seriously believe the EU care about the peace process, or Ireland in general ?

[Uilleachan]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The ref swing was 4 % but that doesnt matter, democracy isnt a perfect system, but thats what we have.
Sometimes with our voting system we dont get the representation we want, again, thats the way it is.
If you feel Scotland should stay in the EU, you need to get lobbying for another indy ref ,and win it this time, again a 10 % majority wanting to stay.

Lots of non EU European countries have soft borders with the EU, its not  a problem there, why should it be in Ireland ?
They have different duties, different VAT levels and completely different costs of living, no problems.
And its been that way since the EU wasnt even a thing.

So what changed ?
Nothings changed, except the EU trying to cause mischief, and to derail the Brexit process.
Do you seriously believe the EU care about the peace process, or Ireland in general ?

I'm not bothered about staying a member of the EU, and as you correctly point out we don't have to be a member of the EU to have a soft border with the EU, but we would have to be a member of EFTA, or have a similar arrangement in place, because there isn't a single border into the european block that has a soft border that doesn't have such an arrangement in place. I know as I've crossed most of them in person at some point in the last 20 years, I haven't; been to Belorussia, crossed the Finish border with Russia or crossed into the Kaliningrad enclave from either Lithuania or Poland.   

As to Scotland and another indyref, the ground work has already been done and the referendum bill has passed by majority vote, it's sat awaiting the final outcome of the brexit process.    

For my part I'm favouring the UK joining EFTA, or if that doesn't happen, an indy scotland joining EFTA. As mentioned in previous posts on this thread single market membership is the perfect compromise IMO. Sorts all the issue out, bar freedom of movement. 

[yod dropper]

On 04/12/2017 at 17:59, Uilleachan said:

A vote on Single Market & Customs Union membership, in or out yes or no.  

When Messers Cameron and Osbourne, leaders and architects of the Remain campaign told us to be under no illusions that a vote to leave the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union did they in fact mean, we will then perhaps stay in either or in fact have another vote to see if we stay in either?

Your argument is that which Clegg etc. used directly after the result but then the BBC put a montage together of both Remain and Leave camps saying that we would be leaving both.

You're asking for a second vote on something we've already voted for.

[Uilleachan]

7 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

When Messers Cameron and Osbourne, leaders and architects of the Remain campaign told us to be under no illusions that a vote to leave the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union did they in fact mean, we will then perhaps stay in either or in fact have another vote to see if we stay in either?

Your argument is that which Clegg etc. used directly after the result but then the BBC put a montage together of both Remain and Leave camps saying that we would be leaving both.

You're asking for a second vote on something we've already voted for.

Not even the leave campaign were campaigning on leaving both. I'm sure you can post links to them saying they did, and I can post links of the same people saying it's not, even Farage is on record saying leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. So from my perspective it wasn't clear at all. The ballot paper was stay in or leave the EU, nothing more or nothing less. The vote was leave and we're leaving the EU, I'm not arguing for a vote on that that is decided.

Montage et al, means nothing. A vote on single market (not the EU) membership would settle the current constitutional impasse. If you don't see the constitutional issue then it's time to open your eyes. 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Uilleachan said:

 

For my part I'm favouring the UK joining EFTA, or if that doesn't happen, an indy scotland joining EFTA. As mentioned in previous posts on this thread single market membership is the perfect compromise IMO. Sorts all the issue out, bar freedom of movement. 

All good, except for one thing.
The EU have always been absolutely emphatic , no single market without free access of people.
So unless they change their minds (Hell will freeze over first) thats not happening.
EFTA membership is a given, WTO membership is also a given.
But the EU dont want to give us anything by way of compromise, so are forcing us into hard Brexit.
They will then bleat how unreasonable we are, whilst actively trying to break us up.

They may even succeed, imagine Scotland and Wales with Hard borders that the EU have told you HAVE to have, imagine having the euro as your currency ?
Imagine the cost of living being the same as Eire, and a mountain of bailout money thrust upon you, because its crippled your economy, and not being able to get out of it because of the repayments and interest.
Wont happen ? People talk about not coming out the EU because its too risky, economy wise.
I say its too risky to stay in, when Italy collapses, and Greece defaults again, causing a banking crash, at least we wont have to bail them out ,again.

[yod dropper]

Mr Cameron saying we would leave the single market.  He was the leader of Remain, not just a supporter, responsible for the referendum, the rules and what it meant, not just some commentator.  The BBC montage may be available somewhere.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by yod dropper

[panoma1]

Well that's clear enough! Perhaps someone could now post up a clip of Cameron and Osbourne both saying we could leave the EU and stay in the Single Market? Just for balance eh! Lol!

We all know they would have said/done anything to try to prevent an out vote!

[yod dropper]

1 hour ago, Uilleachan said:

Not even the leave campaign were campaigning on leaving both. I'm sure you can post links to them saying they did, and I can post links of the same people saying it's not, even Farage is on record saying leaving the EU does not mean leaving the single market. So from my perspective it wasn't clear at all. The ballot paper was stay in or leave the EU, nothing more or nothing less. The vote was leave and we're leaving the EU, I'm not arguing for a vote on that that is decided.

Montage et al, means nothing. A vote on single market (not the EU) membership would settle the current constitutional impasse. If you don't see the constitutional issue then it's time to open your eyes. 

 

20 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Well that's clear enough! Perhaps someone could now post up a clip of Cameron and Osbourne both saying we could leave the EU and stay in the Single Market? Just for balance eh! Lol!

We all know they would have said/done anything to try to prevent an out vote!

Absolutely panoma1, it's as clear as possible so long as your eyes are open.  Uillaechan, if you don't see the constitutional issue on having a second vote on something we've clearly already voted for then I'd suggest it's time for you to open your eyes.

[Newbie to this]

Doesn't get any clearer than that!

A vote to leave means leaving the EU and the single market, as said by both Leave and Remain campaigns

Edited December 6, 2017 by Newbie to this

[ShootingEgg]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Doesn't get any clearer than that!

A vote to leave means leaving the EU and the single market, as said by both Leave and Remain campaigns

The majority of leave voters on here know this. Just the remain side dont like to accept it

[JohnfromUK]

The Single Market is not just a 'single market' - just as The Common Market was never just a 'common market'.  Both of these phrases are names chosen to hide the true nature and complexity of the organisation.

Both the Single Market and the and Common Market came with a pile of associated rules and restrictions making the whole thing a very 'restrictive' market or Cartel - and that is the whole reason that we are getting out - to be in a proper FREE market - one where we aren't tied to rules set by some overseas court of justice, where we are told who we can and can't trade with.

[walshie]

That's because the remainers can't get their heads round the idea of democracy if it doesn't suit them.

[Nial]

21 hours ago, Uilleachan said:

The vote was finite, Scotland and NI voted to remain.

Scotland and NI voted for the UK to remain (as I did here in Scotland).

There was no question about what we wanted if the UK voted out.

 

All I want out of the EU is the same sort of Free Trade Agreement that Mexico has, that would immediately solve the NI border question.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/mexico/

Edited December 6, 2017 by Nial

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Nial said:

Scotland and NI voted for the UK to remain (as I did here in Scotland).

There was no question about what we wanted if the UK voted out.

 

All I want out of the EU is the same sort of Free Trade Agreement that Mexico has, that would immediately solve the NI border question.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/mexico/

Again, ask yourself why this would be problem (Clue, its not)

Its called punishment for leaving.

[old man]

Seems to me the EU have currently adopted the same attitude over brexit with us as exhibited individually in history?

Shame we seem to have lost our backbone?