Harnser Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 54 minutes ago, old'un said: I have read a fair few posts on forums against shooting, be it grouse, pheasant, wild fowling, or what we call vermin control, these people are well organised, and know how to get Joe public on their side by the using emotive language and pictures, they also have a voice in the media that we cannot match, or can we?. I’ve cut and pasted below a piece by Mark Avery (anti shooting) on how his troops should attack us. I think that their tactics of entry by the back door, will, in the next 10 or 15 years force change to shooting to a point that we are few and weak, will it be the end of shooting as we all know it today, who knows? Mark Avery I have always said that we need to divide the problem and tackle all the issues individually. Using fire to destroy peatland and upland biodiversity is probably our easiest target. Lead shot is another low hanging fruit. When we try to go straight to a ban we leave them to much wiggle room for blurring the problem. Simply chip away all of the individual activities they need- till their are none left. Good post . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 Might be a good post Hanser, but the future for the next generation of shooters worries me, the use of media, facebook, twitter, etc, are being used with great effect to paint a poor picture of us. I guess I could just say to the youngster amongst us (below 30) good luck lads and lasses, I’ve had the best years so I don’t care…..but I do and I want to see the next generation of young shooters enjoy the same freedom that I have enjoyed for the last 50 odd years, but what I/we can do, I have no idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 1 hour ago, old'un said: Might be a good post Hanser, but the future for the next generation of shooters worries me, the use of media, facebook, twitter, etc, are being used with great effect to paint a poor picture of us. I guess I could just say to the youngster amongst us (below 30) good luck lads and lasses, I’ve had the best years so I don’t care…..but I do and I want to see the next generation of young shooters enjoy the same freedom that I have enjoyed for the last 50 odd years, but what I/we can do, I have no idea? You and I have enjoyed the halcyon days of shooting . No antis ,shotgun licence bought at the post office ,farmers more than willing to let you shoot pigeons . The local farm shoot supported by the villages . The kids would turn out with a stick to beat and would get a shilling if they stayed all day . I like you are in the twilight years of my shooting career. I detest these antis with a venom and only want to see shooting carried on long after I have gone to the big hide in the sky . I just want shooters on here to try and see we’re the danger to our sport is coming from . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Harnser said: You and I have enjoyed the halcyon days of shooting . No antis ,shotgun licence bought at the post office ,farmers more than willing to let you shoot pigeons . The local farm shoot supported by the villages . The kids would turn out with a stick to beat and would get a shilling if they stayed all day . I like you are in the twilight years of my shooting career. I detest these antis with a venom and only want to see shooting carried on long after I have gone to the big hide in the sky . I just want shooters on here to try and see we’re the danger to our sport is coming from . Harnser As a couple of posters have pointed out. Good old Freud, slipping again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 On 30/12/2017 at 16:43, Harnser said: You just Carnt see it . The people who take part in this type of shooting are not the type to go out and sit in a pigeon hide in the winter or to go on the foreshore in a gale to try for a goose or a duck for the table . All they want to do is pay their money and shoot as many game birds as their money can buy . They have nothing to do with conservation or the running of the shoot . Just pay and shoot . Yes sir this is were the danger to shooting is coming from . Remember ,not to long ago the Dutch banned the rearing of game birds for shooting ,so what do the Dutch do now for shooting ,they get on a flight from Amsterdam to Norwich and pay massive amounts to shoot large numbers of immature of birds in Norfolk . Harnser I don't really get your argument. It is the same as with most things in life - if you can afford it, you do it. I would bet that a lot more people would regularly shoot on 'big bag' days if they could afford it. Many people who can only justify paying for a couple 100 bird days a year would probably shoot way more if they had the means. I don't really see the problem. Is shooting big bags of pigeons wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 It's not just the big commercial shoots, i know it's been mentioned before on this forum and no doubt many others but field basics such as, not taking your spent cartridges with you do enough damage as it is. I share one of my permissions with a couple of lads younger than me and frequently find empties. There's places where we and other members of the public walk that are littered with the same empty cases. It gives us all a bad name because to the antis one shooter is no different from the rest, regardless of wether we go on a big expensive shoot or are just looking to bag a couple pigeons for the pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 13 hours ago, motty said: I don't really get your argument. It is the same as with most things in life - if you can afford it, you do it. I would bet that a lot more people would regularly shoot on 'big bag' days if they could afford it. Many people who can only justify paying for a couple 100 bird days a year would probably shoot way more if they had the means. I don't really see the problem. Is shooting big bags of pigeons wrong? I have no desire to shoot say 400 bord days even if i had the money. I run a small shoot that we take 20birds a shoot and beat on two that shoot between 30-60 a day. Its not about numbers to me, its about being in the field enjoying the sport with other like minded people. Id rather have enough birds for freezer than waste them. But thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 34 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said: I have no desire to shoot say 400 bord days even if i had the money. I run a small shoot that we take 20birds a shoot and beat on two that shoot between 30-60 a day. Its not about numbers to me, its about being in the field enjoying the sport with other like minded people. Id rather have enough birds for freezer than waste them. But thats just me. You sound like a proper countryman who understands the values of having a good time out in the field shooting with friends . There are to many big shoots out there that are profit driven were numbers are more important than the tradition of friends having a good time out together . Well done sir . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 I went to a private guests only shoot only used by the father and son to entertain friends 650 birds 7 guns no days sold at all they shoot 3 day a week minimum. So is that better because it's not commercial than the 150-200 bird days I pay for with my friends mostly country boys and often gamekeepers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 Happy new year everyone Don’t think it’s the numbers that are the problem, like Motty said, when it comes to pigeon shooting I would think that most dedicated pigeon shooters have shot bags in excess of 500 over the years (I have) the problem I see with large commercial game shoots is waste, we may find ways to justify this waste but this is preaching to the converted, its the type of thing the anti’s will pick-up and paste all over social media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 But the daming is of all commercial shots not just large bags and certainly no mention of waste until now. I will dam any shoot big small private or comerical that wastes game but this not what people here are highlighting it's just commercial shoots at fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 2 hours ago, old'un said: Happy new year everyone Don’t think it’s the numbers that are the problem, like Motty said, when it comes to pigeon shooting I would think that most dedicated pigeon shooters have shot bags in excess of 500 over the years (I have) the problem I see with large commercial game shoots is waste, we may find ways to justify this waste but this is preaching to the converted, its the type of thing the anti’s will pick-up and paste all over social media. Pigeon shooting is Sport/pest control, pigeon are wild and their number are naturally high when big bags are harvested, this activity is mostly done for sport, not money! Grouse are wild birds too, they are harvested in season whenever there are adequate numbers by paying guns, which contributes to employment on and the upkeep of the moor In the form of a cash crop for the land owner, commercial driven game shoots release artificially high numbers of capitive bred birds to provide sport for their paying guns, it is a service provided purely for commercial profit! The difference I have tried to describe above is between artificial/commercial shooting and natural sporting shooting.........the waste from commercial shoots just adds more negativity to the argument surrounding released game and big driven days! Shooting must keep its own house in order....or sooner or later someone will do it for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Harnser said: You sound like a proper countryman who understands the values of having a good time out in the field shooting with friends . There are to many big shoots out there that are profit driven were numbers are more important than the tradition of friends having a good time out together . Well done sir . harnser Being bought up around a syndicate of people by my grandad I learnt that being out in the field enjoying the company of fellow shooters tops any size bag. Being able to put back into the countryside and see all species thrive is a great feeling, now a friend and I run a small shoot, only put 300 birds down, dont charge people to shoot it as to me its not about money. seeing young shots get their first or see mates enjoying a day ive put on is payment enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 2 hours ago, welshwarrior said: But the daming is of all commercial shots not just large bags and certainly no mention of waste until now. I will dam any shoot big small private or comerical that wastes game but this not what people here are highlighting it's just commercial shoots at fault. I think commercial, large bags and money go hand in hand. Its not so much a case of how we see it, but how the anti’s will use it against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uilleachan Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 42 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Pigeon shooting is Sport/pest control, pigeon are wild and their number are naturally high when big bags are harvested, this activity is mostly done for sport, not money! Grouse are wild birds too, they are harvested in season whenever there are adequate numbers by paying guns, which contributes to employment on and the upkeep of the moor In the form of a cash crop for the land owner, commercial driven game shoots release artificially high numbers of capitive bred birds to provide sport for their paying guns, it is a service provided purely for commercial profit! The difference I have tried to describe above is between artificial/commercial shooting and natural sporting shooting.........the waste from commercial shoots just adds more negativity to the argument surrounding released game and big driven days! Shooting must keep its own house in order....or sooner or later someone will do it for us! Makes sense to me. Had a post pop up on Facebook last week from the aftermath of a pheasant shoot (given the poster I suspect somewhere in East Lothian) showing a pile of birds being burnt. Perhaps posting that type of stuff on FB wasn't the wisest move, but then if that sort of thing wasn't happening there'd be no image to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, Uilleachan said: Makes sense to me. Had a post pop up on Facebook last week from the aftermath of a pheasant shoot (given the poster I suspect somewhere in East Lothian) showing a pile of birds being burnt. Perhaps posting that type of stuff on FB wasn't the wisest move, but then if that sort of thing wasn't happening there'd be no image to post. Some time back my wife who is on face book showed me a page that was full of anti comments, plus pictures, I cannot find this page now but from memory it went something like the following. 100s of thousand of young pheasants slaughtered in the name of “sport”. Shooters will tell us they are just taking natures bounty but in reality these poor birds are breed on a commercial scale in the 100s of thousands and driven to waiting, so called “sports men” who pay vast sums of money to blast them out of the sky, these birds are only a few months old and do not know the dangers that await them, these poor birds are slaughtered in the name of sport, they tell us that they have a natural life and its good healthy food that goes into the food chain, whereas in realty most are buried or dumped in what’s called “stink pits” to attract crows and foxes so they can shot them. STOP THIS SLAUGHTER AND WASTE NOW! The person who wrote this obviously has some insight into shooting, maybe a poacher turned gamekeeper? The point is, not what we think, but what Joe public thinks when they read this on social media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Just E mailed my MP John Lamont on this issue. His reply being do not worry that there are enough MPs like himself to keep the PM right on this matter. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 30/12/2017 at 12:54, Harnser said: I have Said it before and I will say it again . It’s the big commercial shoots that are going to ruin shooting for all of us. They are an abomination and far from what shooting should be . harnser While I’d agree some commercial shoots have become something they weren’t intended to be, the fact remains that if it weren’t for driven shooting ( commercial or otherwise ) none of us would be shooting. They are the only traditional established form of shooting we have in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 22 hours ago, panoma1 said: Pigeon shooting is Sport/pest control, pigeon are wild and their number are naturally high when big bags are harvested, this activity is mostly done for sport, not money! Grouse are wild birds too, they are harvested in season whenever there are adequate numbers by paying guns, which contributes to employment on and the upkeep of the moor In the form of a cash crop for the land owner, commercial driven game shoots release artificially high numbers of capitive bred birds to provide sport for their paying guns, it is a service provided purely for commercial profit! The difference I have tried to describe above is between artificial/commercial shooting and natural sporting shooting.........the waste from commercial shoots just adds more negativity to the argument surrounding released game and big driven days! Shooting must keep its own house in order....or sooner or later someone will do it for us! But you and others aren’t seeing the bigger picture. Pigeon shooting may well be pest control but if the big shoots go and all those who participated, such as the landed gentry, the aristocracy and those whom have influence in parliament cease shooting, who will stand up for you and me in government circles when scrutiny turns to us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, Scully said: But you and others aren’t seeing the bigger picture. Pigeon shooting may well be pest control but if the big shoots go and all those who participated, such as the landed gentry, the aristocracy and those whom have influence in parliament cease shooting, who will stand up for you and me in government circles when scrutiny turns to us? Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scully said: But you and others aren’t seeing the bigger picture. Pigeon shooting may well be pest control but if the big shoots go and all those who participated, such as the landed gentry, the aristocracy and those whom have influence in parliament cease shooting, who will stand up for you and me in government circles when scrutiny turns to us? And therein lies the problem, its only they (toffs) who are seen to-be shooters and not you and I, the publics perception of the shooting class. I am not against commercial shooting or the numbers, and I can see your point of view, but I think the practice that some of these shoots employ needs sorting. Edited January 2, 2018 by old'un Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 26 minutes ago, Scully said: But you and others aren’t seeing the bigger picture. Pigeon shooting may well be pest control but if the big shoots go and all those who participated, such as the landed gentry, the aristocracy and those whom have influence in parliament cease shooting, who will stand up for you and me in government circles when scrutiny turns to us? I believe I do recognise the "bigger picture" I am pro all types of shooting, I support driven game shooting, and hope all types of shooting continue, I am merely pointing out that where there is growing criticism, both real and imaginary, we must address what the public is persuaded is unacceptable....not just ignore this critism! Fieldsports are on the back foot, our enemies are very successfully increasing public anti shooting support by, not just turning our own sporting conduct against us but using propaganda, misinformation and lies to further their agenda, if we bury our heads in the sand, we risk being overwhelmed......artificially releasing many times the numbers of captive reared birds a piece of land can support, so people can kill vast numbers of birds in a day, for money! I would suggest is to the public, unacceptable and indefensible, disposing of the slain by dumping, burning or other such means adds to this indefensibility. I do not wish to see any shooting curtailed by further regulation, but if we don't address critism......despite the landed gentry, aristocracy MP's, and other supporters in high places........we surely will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Like I said, some commercial shoots have become something they perhaps didn’t intend to be, and they need to have a very close look at themselves, but for a fellow shooter to call them an ‘abomination’ is ridiculous. The lone pigeon shooter wouldn’t last five minutes without driven shooting. Driven shooting supports all manner of local amenities and people. On our last syndicate day one of the lads who works in Sainsbury’s was telling me they were selling game birds for around 20 odd quid prior to Christmas. There’s something wrong somewhere when game dealers aren’t offering more than pennies for them. The situation is that UK shooting is a victim of its own success in that it is hugely popular to the extent that the market is flooded with more produce than it can sell. Rather than simply criticising and calling it an ‘abomination’ perhaps it would be of benefit to us all if we could offer a solution to the problem. Don’t forget, despite what we think of ‘toffs’ we shooters can’t survive without driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yickdaz Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 30/12/2017 at 16:16, scotslad said: But who is the real minority? The amount of days sold now on a commercial basis, someone is taking these days. and wot about all the folk that go beating/picking up, like me they may never ever shoot a 'proper' commercial driven day, should they also be deprived?? To try and claim any moral high ground from 1 shooting sport to another ur on very dodgy ground and to be quite honest are hard to justify or prove scientifically or ecologiclly Most shooters would happily throw grouse shooting under a bus to save their own sport yet it is the only truly self sustainable type of shooting The bottom line (and has been stated many times on here by a few) is the anti view 1 bird as too many, so they pick on wot they see as the easier targets the higher value days (and lt us tear ourselves apart) any self imposed bag limits etc are only playing into their hands. If u don't like commercial days, don't go it really is that simple. Also I'm not entirely sure wot practices go on on 'big' days that don't happen on smaller days, the only difference is the drives last longer, big bag days have been going on as long as shooting has existed, and big bag days existed long before DIY or farm shoots ever came about. what about pigeons they are the most prolific wild quarry we shoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 2, 2018 Report Share Posted January 2, 2018 Driven grouse isn’t ‘truly self sustainable’; it takes considerable labour and expense to sustain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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