War on Field Sports?

[wymberley]

Could it just be that the main thrust of this debate - driven shoots - has not changed with regard to the number of birds shot, or, for that matter, the number of rabbit 'harvested' or pigeon shot. Although, I'm not too sure about the latter species - the numbers there could well be on the increase. Instead, could it be that the original consumer base has changed its habits, or in fact, no longer exists? And this is what is generating what appears to be an over supply.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Could it just be that the main thrust of this debate - driven shoots - has not changed with regard to the number of birds shot, or, for that matter, the number of rabbit 'harvested' or pigeon shot. Although, I'm not too sure about the latter species - the numbers there could well be on the increase. Instead, could it be that the original consumer base has changed its habits, or in fact, no longer exists? And this is what is generating what appears to be an over supply.

Possibly, though I think Brexit should get the blame.

It gets the blame for everything else recently!

[AYA117]

This topic has strayed from the original post, very true ! but some very valid points have been raised,If birds are raised to be shot and then they do not enter the food chain,how can anyone ever defend it,I for one cannot and never will.I have shot for over 40 years and have seen my beloved sport eroded by people only interested in money,that is not the sport that I hold so dear.

[oowee]

Even I can't blame Brexit for this . I think Wymberley is right about changing tastes. Next to me is a decent sized shoot with numbers of around 120-150 on a shoot day. It's a very rural location where you might expect residents to be close to all things country.  Despite guns and beaters taking birds there is very little interest from any neighbours in taking any and even put into trays for the farm shop it's still not easy to use them. 

[AYA117]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Even I can't blame Brexit for this . I think Wymberley is right about changing tastes. Next to me is a decent sized shoot with numbers of around 120-150 on a shoot day. It's a very rural location where you might expect residents to be close to all things country.  Despite guns and beaters taking birds there is very little interest from any neighbours in taking any and even put into trays for the farm shop it's still not easy to use them. 

Then I fear the end is near.And in traditional central government ways,that are more interested in public appeasement than anything else. LOOK OUT!

[motty]

14 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

Then I fear the end is near.And in traditional central government ways,that are more interested in public appeasement than anything else. LOOK OUT!

I really don't think the end is near.

[Brad93]

I found this article pretty much summed up my thoughts. 

 

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shooting/game-shooting/is-this-the-solution-for-excess-game-97098

[Scully]

1 hour ago, motty said:

I really don't think the end is near.

Nor do I. 

[AYA117]

Very interesting! It is a start but I feel not the answer.With big commercial shoots killing 2,000 plus a week,that's a lot of sausages.He is right in that,if you do not like it,then have nothing to do with it!

[Scully]

So what would your answer be? 

[AYA117]

We need to be self regulating,if we are unable or unwilling to do this ,then I fear others will regulate us ! I hope we never see the US system,where there are daily bag limits.It only takes a certain political party,with a record of anti fieldsports to jump on the band wagon and say "We if elected will ban the rearing of birds purely to be shot by the upper classes" If it is on social media as mentioned above then it is only a matter time before it gets in the media,just look what is trying to be done to grouse in Scotland,the grouse would more than likely be extinct were it not for the money spent on land management !   I really hope I am wrong.But class hate is a very powerful weapon!

[panoma1]

21 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

We need to be self regulating,if we are unable or unwilling to do this ,then I fear others will regulate us ! I hope we never see the US system,where there are daily bag limits.It only takes a certain political party,with a record of anti fieldsports to jump on the band wagon and say "We if elected will ban the rearing of birds purely to be shot by the upper classes" If it is on social media as mentioned above then it is only a matter time before it gets in the media,just look what is trying to be done to grouse in Scotland,the grouse would more than likely be extinct were it not for the money spent on land management !   I really hope I am wrong.But class hate is a very powerful weapon!

I suppose we could bury our heads in the sand and carry on with the same arguement....better thousands of pheasant released into the wild and given a sporting chance, than millions of chickens kept in captivity and slaughtered without a chance of survival!

The arguement falls when the millions of chickens enter the human food chain.....but apparantly a significant number of the thousands of pheasants don't!..........and the antis interest ain't focussed on chickens!

Add to this the " sport for the rich and privileged" myth, and what do you think?...........Sustainable defence or a recipe for disaster?

[Scully]

2 hours ago, AYA117 said:

We need to be self regulating,if we are unable or unwilling to do this ,then I fear others will regulate us ! I hope we never see the US system,where there are daily bag limits.It only takes a certain political party,with a record of anti fieldsports to jump on the band wagon and say "We if elected will ban the rearing of birds purely to be shot by the upper classes" If it is on social media as mentioned above then it is only a matter time before it gets in the media,just look what is trying to be done to grouse in Scotland,the grouse would more than likely be extinct were it not for the money spent on land management !   I really hope I am wrong.But class hate is a very powerful weapon!

But aren’t you suggesting bag limits by your suggestion of self regulation? 

[AYA117]

Yes I guess in a way I am ! But better self regulation than from outside.

[AYA117]

Unfortunately nothing will happen from within, will the big commercial shoots cut the number of birds shot ? Of course not, the argument that 'we' are only providing a service that clearly people want or we would have no bookings and anyway there is no law against what we are doing so why should we stop. This I think will mean we carry on as we are until we cannot. Shame is it not !

[Penelope]

4 hours ago, Scully said:

So what would your answer be? 

On my shoot this year I have turned the birds that others don't take into burgers which are cooked at the following shoot day, and they go down very well. Yes, we shoot modest bags, so it is somewhat easier to do. It does take time prepping the birds (breasting) and making the burgers, but is perhaps something that other shoots could take on.

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

But aren’t you suggesting bag limits by your suggestion of self regulation? 

In big commercial driven game shooting days numbers are usually limited anyway, but usually, by money!,  your not allowed to shoot 500 pheasants on a 300 bird day! Even if the birds are available! The guns shoot only the number of birds they have purchased!.....If they shoot more, they are usually charged a per bird overage! But this is purely a commodity, available supply on demand and a commercial transaction......I do not think the word "sport" fits anywhere in this arrangement, sport is not about money and numbers!......And it ain't for me!

I like game driven game shooting as much as the next bloke.....but a small/medium day at a fixed price, irrespective of bag (the guns may get 70 head but equally they may get 25 head?) with no comeback if its falls towards the lower end, and no overage if the guns shoot more than the predicted bag, lies comfortably with me, this is in my opinion a sporting day, no need for bag limits as the small expected bag is naturally limiting.

If I had to try to defend one or the other, I know which one I would choose!

 

[Scully]

3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

In big commercial driven game shooting days numbers are usually limited anyway, but usually, by money!,  your not allowed to shoot 500 pheasants on a 300 bird day! Even if the birds are available! The guns shoot only the number of birds they have purchased!.....If they shoot more, they are usually charged a per bird overage! But this is purely a commodity, available supply on demand and a commercial transaction......I do not think the word "sport" fits anywhere in this arrangement, sport is not about money and numbers!......And it ain't for me!

 

 

 

Thanks; I’m aware how it works as I’m a game shooter. Despite what some may think, what you have described above is ‘self regulation’.

There will always be those who just want to shoot lots of birds, which is why some travel to Argentina to shoot hoards of doves, and why not? Shooting live quarry is hugely stimulating and enjoyable. 

Those so inclined will seek out those commercial shoots which offer huge bags, and commercial shoots which don’t will lose out financially. The clue is in the word ‘commercial’; they’re in business.

We may not necessarily agree with it and while I’m not blinkered enough to deny that this type of commercial shooting could be damaging, I can’t help wonder what those who oppose would find acceptable? We’re shooting live quarry for our own entertainment and enjoyment. It’s not ‘sport’. 

 

[panoma1]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

But aren’t you suggesting bag limits by your suggestion of self regulation? 

How is suggesting self regulation suggesting bag limits? My understanding of bag limits is they are, in one way or another mandatory......self regulation is not!

I would rather have self regulation than imposed mandatory bag limits on driven game shooting.......this bag limit issue is currently bubbling under the surface with Natural Englands review of consents for Wildfowling! Natural England appear to be trying to control, regulate and micro manage Wildfowling and Wildfowlers out of existence.....my fear is that game shooting may be dragged down the same path?

[panoma1]

34 minutes ago, Scully said:

We’re shooting live quarry for our own entertainment and enjoyment. It’s not ‘sport’. 

 

The 'sport' is in how you carry out live quarry shooting, for me entertainment and enjoyment is what I get from the 'sporting' way I carry out the 'sport'...if thats not 'sport' then what is it?

Buying the right to shoot a vast number of artificially released birds driven over the guns is shooting, but it's not sport or at least not as I see it, it's purchasing a service and commodity.............in other words a commercial transaction! 

 

[norfolk dumpling]

We've been here before but the threat is now different. Shooting is now even more popular, particularly here in the East, and with even small to modest shoots struggling to sell game we have a problem As a Gun and a beater my freezer is full - I'm pressed to take game even when I'm not shooting as Game Dealers are asking money to remove game - have they adequate markets?? We must be more proactive in disposing of what we shoot. We need an organisation with imagination to take on the challenge. I'm convinced the guy who owns the big shoot around my property, which regularly kills 3-450 birds isn't giving them away!! Sir Ian's ideas were excellent but we need CLA, BASC, GWCT etc etc to combine to push a solution. Surely with celebrity cooks regularly showing game on tv, and the support of the organisations I've already mentioned and the Royals we can do this.

[Scully]

48 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

How is suggesting self regulation suggesting bag limits? My understanding of bag limits is they are, in one way or another mandatory......self regulation is not!

I would rather have self regulation than imposed mandatory bag limits on driven game shooting.......this bag limit issue is currently bubbling under the surface with Natural Englands review of consents for Wildfowling! Natural England appear to be trying to control, regulate and micro manage Wildfowling and Wildfowlers out of existence.....my fear is that game shooting may be dragged down the same path?

You can impose voluntary bag limits; it happens often; they don’t have to be mandatory. We sometimes try to limit the number of Woodcock we shoot over the day, and we have a self consensual practise of not shooting Jays at all. It is self regulation. 

[Scully]

31 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The 'sport' is in how you carry out live quarry shooting, for me entertainment and enjoyment is what I get from the 'sporting' way I carry out the 'sport'...if thats not 'sport' then what is it?

Buying the right to shoot a vast number of artificially released birds driven over the guns is shooting, but it's not sport or at least not as I see it, it's purchasing a service and commodity.............in other words a commercial transaction! 

 

Everyone has a view of what is ‘sport’ or not when it applies to live quarry shooting. If it makes you feel better about why you do what you do then fair enough, but don’t kid yourself that you’re killing for any other reason than your own pleasure. You try convincing an anti that your ‘sport’ is more justifiable than anyone else’s. 

You got the last paragraph right and I’d agree entirely; it’s a commercial industry; supplying demand for profit. The only downside I can see which currently needs to be addressed is the use of those birds afterwards. 

[ips]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Everyone has a view of what is ‘sport’ or not when it applies to live quarry shooting. If it makes you feel better about why you do what you do then fair enough, but don’t kid yourself that you’re killing for any other reason than your own pleasure. You try convincing an anti that your ‘sport’ is more justifiable than anyone else’s. 

You got the last paragraph right and I’d agree entirely; it’s a commercial industry; supplying demand for profit. The only downside I can see which currently needs to be addressed is the use of those birds afterwards. 

absolutely bang on sully. Killing quarry because we enjoy it is what we all do, you can wrap it up anyway you want but that is a fact. One bird or twenty birds per gun per day what is the difference you still pulled the trigger for fun.

also totally agree that the ONLY thing we have in order to justify our "sport" is that every head of game goes into the food chain. Without that we have nothing.

[panoma1]

31 minutes ago, Scully said:

You can impose voluntary bag limits; it happens often; they don’t have to be mandatory. We sometimes try to limit the number of Woodcock we shoot over the day, and we have a self consensual practise of not shooting Jays at all. It is self regulation. 

You cannot Impose voluntary!