Over & Under to Side by Side

[buze]

For people who want to try a SxS, or those who don't get on with them... a few tips I found when I started practicing on clays is:

+ Grab the forend. Don't just 'support' it with your hand, actually GRAB the forend+barrels, and shift the gun around. It's lighter than a O/U, so needs shifting. Also helps with the muzzle flip between shot.

+ Speaking of second trigger, slip your trigger hand back 1cm or so on the stock. That helps tremendously to reach both triggers. After a little while, you'll forget about it completely.

+ If your gun isn't ejector, I found that 'twisting' the gun outward after opening it helps 'flicking' the cartridges out in one go. I'm /pretty sure/ I'm nearly as good as ejector now.

+ Try many gloves. You need at least a good glove on the forend hand (due to the heat at least), and also likely one on the trigger hand. I tried a few, and I use thin-ish leather gloves. The McVelt fancy modern ones don't cut it somehow. Leather gives good grip, and are JUST the ticket to 'flick' these cartridges out quickly too.

To be fair I have 2 other SxS; one is a posh one that doesn't fit me at all -- second one is better, but the Hammer one I now use is *just* the ticket, so I suggest you try a few, they are not all born the same. Lucky thing is, most of them are very cheap (especially if you go non-ejector!)

 

[Wilksy II]

On 30/12/2017 at 19:44, JDog said:

Speak to Wilksy on this forum.

Hello! I’ve just come across this thread, yes I’ve not been shooting long and my first gun was a o/u which I liked but I always fancied a sxs so I bought an awd Aya yeoman and really got on with it, then I got an awd semi pistol grip hammer gun from wabbitbosher,drove down to Kettering picked it up and dropped in at Jdog’s on the way back in time for roost Shooting and shot my first three pigeons with it! And it’s short in the lop but I love it! So then I decided that I was better suited to sxs so i sold the o/u and bought a fabarm beta lux pistol grip 3” steel proofed multi choked double trigger sxs, basically a modern sxs, feels like my o/u but I’ve got the sxs view down the barrels and double trigger all the time which is the hardest thing to flip between I think, my reckoning is that really you should stick to one gun and shoot it well, but it’s hard to resist buying others and giving them there turn, that said there’s obviously benefits to o/u because I have good friend of 84 who still shoots and decoys who remembers the first o/u he saw at a clay comp,he was good a friend of joe wheater and saw a lot of good clay shooters and at that time they all used sxs 

[Wilksy II]

1 hour ago, buze said:

For people who want to try a SxS, or those who don't get on with them... a few tips I found when I started practicing on clays is:

+ Grab the forend. Don't just 'support' it with your hand, actually GRAB the forend+barrels, and shift the gun around. It's lighter than a O/U, so needs shifting. Also helps with the muzzle flip between shot.

+ Speaking of second trigger, slip your trigger hand back 1cm or so on the stock. That helps tremendously to reach both triggers. After a little while, you'll forget about it completely.

+ If your gun isn't ejector, I found that 'twisting' the gun outward after opening it helps 'flicking' the cartridges out in one go. I'm /pretty sure/ I'm nearly as good as ejector now.

+ Try many gloves. You need at least a good glove on the forend hand (due to the heat at least), and also likely one on the trigger hand. I tried a few, and I use thin-ish leather gloves. The McVelt fancy modern ones don't cut it somehow. Leather gives good grip, and are JUST the ticket to 'flick' these cartridges out quickly too.

To be fair I have 2 other SxS; one is a posh one that doesn't fit me at all -- second one is better, but the Hammer one I now use is *just* the ticket, so I suggest you try a few, they are not all born the same. Lucky thing is, most of them are very cheap (especially if you go non-ejector!)

 

That is lovely buze!  I don’t suffer with jealousy as a rule but that would do me!! And I know what you mean about attention, last time out I only shot a brace of pheasants and a partridge but I enjoyed more that with any other gun!

[Walker570]

I saw an advertisement for one on the Shooter Forum. 12/20 and 410.

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

So far the triple is only made in 12 and 20 (unless there’s a new model)

personaly find my triple shoots very well incredible gun for the money 

would have one in 410 like a shot 

op 

just get one and go for it as previously mentioned the single trigger Winchester would be a good starting point 

All the best 

of 

 

[marsh man]

As I am a devotee to the s x s, I have read the above posts with interest , it seems the majority speak highly of the handling , looks and the feel of the s x s , and after started there shooting carer with one them moving on to o/u or autos they have now gone back to there grass roots and enjoying there hammer and hammer less side by sides once again , so far so good

So why have the gun shops and auction houses got sides by sides stacked as high as the rafters that nobody really want ? , I am mainly referring to sound, run of the mill type of makers, as the top makers can still command good money .

One day there might be a revival , but anybody who want to try one should buy one now because as far as sporting guns go , they are a complete bargain .

 

 

 

 

[buze]

58 minutes ago, marsh man said:

As I am a devotee to the s x s, I have read the above posts with interest , it seems the majority speak highly of the handling , looks and the feel of the s x s , and after started there shooting carer with one them moving on to o/u or autos they have now gone back to there grass roots and enjoying there hammer and hammer less side by sides once again , so far so good

So why have the gun shops and auction houses got sides by sides stacked as high as the rafters that nobody really want ? , I am mainly referring to sound, run of the mill type of makers, as the top makers can still command good money .

One day there might be a revival , but anybody who want to try one should buy one now because as far as sporting guns go , they are a complete bargain .

Well, all I can say is, fill your pockets. I had the same experience in early 2000's with 'film' cameras, when you couldn't shift them. I bought a collection of cameras my dad/grandad would have killed for for little money. I mean, Hasselblad, Leica, Zeiss and the like were going for less than <100 sometime. The price eventually DID go considerably up after that...

 

1 hour ago, Wilksy II said:

That is lovely buze!  I don’t suffer with jealousy as a rule but that would do me!! And I know what you mean about attention, last time out I only shot a brace of pheasants and a partridge but I enjoyed more that with any other gun!

Thanks! It's splendid, it's a 'no name' (birmingham) live pigeon gun from ~1880+ and it's been used, loved, serviced (refaced) and is in a splendid shape, everytime I pick it up I'm amazed I'm shooting with a ~140y/o gun and it's still do me 24/25 at FITASC. I think the most satisfaction is to beat your mates with their o/u -- but then again even if you miss, you look GOOD :-)

[Gerry78]

Ive shot autos o/u and side by sides i currently have a 40yr old AYA NO3 Magnum which i love and would never get rid off A lot of gun experts claim s/s a little harder to shoot i disagree i think s/s gives u a better sight picture of the bird but thats just me Try a few out as some of the stocks are a little shorter you can get a descend gun for good money

[Feltwad]

Black powder hammer guns today are so cheap especially those by provincial gun makers  those in shooting condition and all parts are genuine . Has for those top London guns I have come across some where the owners have said I have Purdey  or a Boss, or Holland close examination of some of them shows that they have been re sleeved and restocked  the only true part is the action .You will also find that those that shoot the u/o and pay a sum of four figures and a sxs  for a few 100 pounds can be a big temptation to try something different.

Feltwad

A Stand Of Provincial Hammer Guns 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Feltwad

[SxS]

Although I’ve never owned one myself, my first shooting was with an o/u and I (very) occasionally will shoot with friends o/us if they’ve acquired something new and are passing it around.

When I first went SxS, I’d failed to fully appreciate just how important gun fit is with them and couldn’t hit a barn door. A proper gun fit session (with a decent fitter and try gun for final adjustments) made a huge difference (my guns are now all spot on or close and vanish when they go to my shoulder) and since then I’ve not thought seriously about buying an o/u (even though a few people have tried to talk me in to them).

I look the speed of gun with a well balanced SxS, speed of loading, and - of course - the elegance of them in the field, where they still seem to be a dying breed.

Cartridge wise, yes go lighter in terms of weight and punchiness, but choke up. I’ve never put more than 32g through any of mine and, with full choke, can happily pull down Welsh pheasants that others in the line will be throwing 40g+ at. For clay practice sessions I generally run 21g, but did feed one of them for a while on 27g Superfasts.

There can be bargains to be had on unfashionable barrel lengths, and I’m looking around to add a ~26” for walked up when I find the right one. If I could only have one then it’s be a 28 or 29.

My “rule” for guns is that semi-pistol are single trigger, straight hand are doubles. Sticking to this I’ve never had a problem switching between them (bit like driving automatic vs manual) and wouldn’t perceive myself to be any slower with doubles than with a single.

One thing I would say is that whilst full wood stocks are lovely, you do notice that you’ve been shooting if you put a lot through... so, like with o/us, it can be a case of picking the right gun for the job (I'll happily run a slab+ through my heavier Beretta with butt pad, but keep the lighter guns for other game days). As has been said, don’t forget a glove as you *will* notice the barrels warming up when you’re in the shooting!

If you find a good one, then buy it before it heads to the US... but watch out for wall thicknesses on "bargains".

[Targetman]

 

You will really enjoy using a side by side, their lightness and speed of reaction makes them a pleasure in the field. 

Many Side by Sides are set up to be flat with  30gr 6s loads which may be worth considering  as starting point. They simply don't have the range of the very long over and unders  with very heavy loads but as long as you pick your shot can be  effective on all but the longest shots.

If you haven't used them much consider getting one of the coaches at your local clay ground to check the fit and where you are shooting with it, might help you get  comfortable  with it quickly.

enjoy.

[ips]

I love the elegance of sxs and although I love my Spanish sidelock 26" I think for practicality a nice sidelock or sideplate 30" single trigger would suit me.

[AYA117]

In 40 years of shooting,I have only ever used a side by side,I am currently using an AYA No.2 3" magnum with 28" barrels,it shoots very very well,and yes it shoots 3" shells just fine.If not that one then it is an AYA 117 with 26" barrels.

[Jbob]

I always shoot with an o/u. However my small clay shooting group decided to have a 'themed' Christmas shoot this year [SXS or 410]. I decided to join in a broke out my sxs thats been sat in the cabinet for years. I don't shoot it as I bought it on a whim with youthful naivety and never got on with it. As it was cheap I put it in the cabinet and left it there. Roll on to 28th Dec 2017 and away i go with it and hit just as many clays as I do with me o/u and had a fantastic laugh in the process. I genuinely think I will be using on occasion through out the year when I fancy something a bit different. 

I was disappointed at the reaction the day had from other shooters and their reaction to SXS. A lot of people brought their usual o/u and when offered a sxs to shoot with you got comments like 'no way, never' and 'whats that thing......oh some old antique thing'. Snobbery seams to be everywhere.

What I did take from the day was 1. even thought I shoot 100% o/u, switching to a 2x trigger non ejecting sxs is not difficult, 2. sxs most defiantly is not hard to shoot and 3. they are great fun to use.

 

[panoma1]

12 minutes ago, Jbob said:

I always shoot with an o/u. However my small clay shooting group decided to have a 'themed' Christmas shoot this year [SXS or 410]. I decided to join in a broke out my sxs thats been sat in the cabinet for years. I don't shoot it as I bought it on a whim with youthful naivety and never got on with it. As it was cheap I put it in the cabinet and left it there. Roll on to 28th Dec 2017 and away i go with it and hit just as many clays as I do with me o/u and had a fantastic laugh in the process. I genuinely think I will be using on occasion through out the year when I fancy something a bit different. 

I was disappointed at the reaction the day had from other shooters and their reaction to SXS. A lot of people brought their usual o/u and when offered a sxs to shoot with you got comments like 'no way, never' and 'whats that thing......oh some old antique thing'. Snobbery seams to be everywhere.

What I did take from the day was 1. even thought I shoot 100% o/u, switching to a 2x trigger non ejecting sxs is not difficult, 2. sxs most defiantly is not hard to shoot and 3. they are great fun to use.

 

Inverted snobbery methinks!

I would consider an English O/U........but I wouldn't exchange my craftsman made English SBS for any mass produced foreign O/U! 

[wymberley]

Gripping a forend on an overhead (driven) shot means you're probably going to miss as you've dragged the barrels 'off line' - simple geometry.

[norfolk dumpling]

Provided guns fit and you practice transition should be ok. I started with an OU but bought a nice SxS which I shot really well with. However with advancing years and a few more Bob in my pocket I bought a nice little 20g Berretta which I also enjoy shooting. Enjoy your guns and don't take life too serious.

[The Heron]

I have both, I started off many years ago with sxs no matter how hard I try I keep coming back to my aya 25 which I bought second hand it has had all loads put through it and has taken a load of punishment and has never let me down I would not part with it I dream of having a custom made to measure 25.

[Mighty Ruler]

I bought a double trigger O/U last week as my first gun so that when I do buy a SxS it should be easier to swap between the two. Even if I never shoot with a SxS I’d still want one, to look at and admire. I’ve dreamt of owning a shotgun since I was a kid in the 60s but it was always SxSs.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i bought (well my dad) my first side by side 52/53 years ago, a J Hughes of birmingham boxlock non ejector 30 inch barrels/ it was 6pounds 10shillings

[wymberley]

Why change? There's some real bargains out there to be had in the shape of a SbS to complement your OU.

[arjimlad]

I am most confident with my Browning 525 but have always had a budget side by side apart from for a few months where I really missed having one.

A lot of my trips out consist of an armed nature ramble and the lighter weight is appreciated. Also having something I will happily jump over a ditch with or push through a hedge is useful. I have found that the stock on a SBS needs to be a little longer than that on the OU for me to be able to shoot to an acceptable standard with it. My Gunmark Merlin now has a 25mm butt pad from JS Ramsbottom on it taking the length to 15 1/4" or so compared to the 14 3/4 of the Browning.

The ability to instantly choose which barrel to fire as the gun is mounted is useful. Never had any trouble with switching between double or single triggers as the latter have usually had a straight or Prince of Wales stock.  Some of my pals who have tried the SBS have initially struggled on clays with the auto safety and double triggers though.

There will always be a period of acclimatisation for someone who has not grown up shooting both OU & SBS but I hope that we will continue to see the SBS in the field for many years to come.

[Robertt]

Buze.........just read your reply re how to shoot a S x S ,  and as coincidence would have it.....

I have never quite been able to outshoot an O/U or Semi Auto with a S x S.

As far as I was concerned I was shooting them exactly the same and I could never fathom out why the difference,  over the years accepted it.

The other week unknown to me my son was filming me on his phone , the last time we were practicing on clays.

Using the SxS I can see on the recording that my left arm is dead straight with my hand on the barrel well clear of the forend whereas with the SA my left hand is alot further back.

I have always shot a S x S this way after reading alot of very old game shooting books when I first started.

Also recently read that extending the arm too much can impede the swing and it does ! 

I have not tried shooting this modified method yet but just practicing the swing it feels alot better with the hand further back.

Feel very confident with it and hopefully will try it out next week.

 

 

[Scully]

I primarily use anything but a sxs, but bought a lovely AYA Yeoman a couple of years ago from another PW member. 

It is the only sxs I own and I really enjoy using it now and then. It has a pistol grip stock, which I like, and is a non-ejector, which doesn’t bother me at all. If I used it more often I probably wouldn’t get caught out now and then by the auto safety ( a truly abysmal ill thought out feature in my opinion ) and would probably also remember the second trigger a tad more quickly than I usually do. Saying all that, I shoot well with it and it looks good and fits me well. It is a very sturdy well made bit of kit and I won’t be parting with it. I enjoy using it. 

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

........ by the auto safety ( a truly abysmal ill thought out feature in my opinion )

They can very easily be disabled.  It is often just a case of removing the part that pushes it back.  I'm used to them, so like double triggers, no problem - and I have to remember to apply the safety with my (one or two) non auto safety guns.  One day I will get round to having them made auto, as I believe it is also quite easy to do, but needs a small part (pusher rod) made I believe.

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

They can very easily be disabled.  It is often just a case of removing the part that pushes it back.  I'm used to them, so like double triggers, no problem - and I have to remember to apply the safety with my (one or two) non auto safety guns.  One day I will get round to having them made auto, as I believe it is also quite easy to do, but needs a small part (pusher rod) made I believe.

Yes, I believe they can be disabled. I really should get round to doing it.