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4 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

youre quite correct graham .

i can see no good answers to any of the whole case , just less bad options.

I think that is the sad truth Mel.  The article that was linked by Henry D is illuminating, i remember reading it when it was originally published.

A catalogue of systemic failure from top to bottom and one that has failed everyone really.  The alarming thing is that it almost appears as history is repeating itself and we are making the same mistakes over and over.

I agree that the continued and indefinite incarceration of JV is likely the least damaging outcome, at least based on the information we have at hand.

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I don't agree that revealing his identity would necessarily encourage people to kill him. What is the difference between him and other convicted rapists and murderers? They too could suffer from "vigilantes". Based on that premise, no murderer would ever be released for fear that the victims' families might ruin their own lives.  

Anonymity was given presumably because of his age. He has re-offended since becoming an adult.

In revealing his identity, it would give the public the chance to give him a bit of the Amish tradition of shunning.

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8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I don't agree that revealing his identity would necessarily encourage people to kill him. What is the difference between him and other convicted rapists and murderers? They too could suffer from "vigilantes". Based on that premise, no murderer would ever be released for fear that the victims' families might ruin their own lives.  

Anonymity was given presumably because of his age. He has re-offended since becoming an adult.

In revealing his identity, it would give the public the chance to give him a bit of the Amish tradition of shunning.

I think that the Bulger case still holds a much heightened prominence in our public consciousness and the continued paedophilia by JV would lead to a much greater risk in this particular instance of someone doing something they shouldn't.

Anonymity through an alternate identity is afforded to many ex offenders, it's not unique to RT and JV, just by the very nature of it being anonymous we don't get to hear about it.  There was a case in Scotland last year where a notorious murderer was done in when his new identity was revealed.

One of the many interesting elements in the article linked to by Henry D questions the decision of the original trial judge to actually name RT and JV and then considers the further decision of the home secretary to create a secondary identity for them.  The result of that being that those involved in his management actually built a much bigger problem.

As with everything it is much more complex than it seems at face value.

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1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I don't agree that revealing his identity would necessarily encourage people to kill him. What is the difference between him and other convicted rapists and murderers? They too could suffer from "vigilantes". Based on that premise, no murderer would ever be released for fear that the victims' families might ruin their own lives.  

Anonymity was given presumably because of his age. He has re-offended since becoming an adult.

In revealing his identity, it would give the public the chance to give him a bit of the Amish tradition of shunning.

No, they were given anonymity as there were death threats from the start and huge crowds baying for blood at the trial, just like here I suppose. One of the unfortunate things was the failing of the home etc to even get him ready for a life outside and that started from early on in the home when he was allowed to say he was a TWOCer not a murderer, that was exacerbated by many other failings too numerous to mention (as I have to walk the dog, no really I do).

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I read it. Interesting stuff, but does it really make a difference who created the monster? If he did give in to his urges and attack another child, would it be any consolation to the parents of the child that it "wasn't all his fault?"

He deserves to rot in jail. Not as punishment for him but for the safety of every child in the country.

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1 hour ago, walshie said:

I read it. Interesting stuff, but does it really make a difference who created the monster? If he did give in to his urges and attack another child, would it be any consolation to the parents of the child that it "wasn't all his fault?"

He deserves to rot in jail. Not as punishment for him but for the safety of every child in the country.

It does make a difference, I think, if there are institutional failures and even possible cover ups.  Not in respect to JV, that ship has sailed, but it makes a difference going forward.

The mistakes made also led to his release when he probably should not have been released, they contributed to the inability to prevent his reoffending, they also heightened the risk to the public.

I don't believe the article seeks to justify or excuse his behaviour or provide absolution for JV, I think it demonstrates how the system turned an already very troubled youngster into an even more troubled adult and then we let him out.

I agree with your last statement, so long as he presents any sort of risk then he should be incarcerated, and what we have seen evidenced is that those involved in the process are incapable of assessing that risk so we must assume that he does present a risk; the assumption must favour wider society in this case and not the individual.

The regret, if that is the correct word, is that the system supposedly designed to rehabilitate actually appears to have done quite the opposite and that should be a concern for all of us.

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20 minutes ago, grrclark said:

It does make a difference, I think, if there are institutional failures and even possible cover ups.  Not in respect to JV, that ship has sailed, but it makes a difference going forward.

The mistakes made also led to his release when he probably should not have been released, they contributed to the inability to prevent his reoffending, they also heightened the risk to the public.

I don't believe the article seeks to justify or excuse his behaviour or provide absolution for JV, I think it demonstrates how the system turned an already very troubled youngster into an even more troubled adult and then we let him out.

I agree with your last statement, so long as he presents any sort of risk then he should be incarcerated, and what we have seen evidenced is that those involved in the process are incapable of assessing that risk so we must assume that he does present a risk; the assumption must favour wider society in this case and not the individual.

The regret, if that is the correct word, is that the system supposedly designed to rehabilitate actually appears to have done quite the opposite and that should be a concern for all of us.

Good post. :good:

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29 minutes ago, grrclark said:

It does make a difference, I think, if there are institutional failures and even possible cover ups.  Not in respect to JV, that ship has sailed, but it makes a difference going forward.

The mistakes made also led to his release when he probably should not have been released, they contributed to the inability to prevent his reoffending, they also heightened the risk to the public.

I don't believe the article seeks to justify or excuse his behaviour or provide absolution for JV, I think it demonstrates how the system turned an already very troubled youngster into an even more troubled adult and then we let him out.

I agree with your last statement, so long as he presents any sort of risk then he should be incarcerated, and what we have seen evidenced is that those involved in the process are incapable of assessing that risk so we must assume that he does present a risk; the assumption must favour wider society in this case and not the individual.

The regret, if that is the correct word, is that the system supposedly designed to rehabilitate actually appears to have done quite the opposite and that should be a concern for all of us.

Rehabilitation very very rarely works, people who commt murder should be disposed of, falling that, life should mean life.

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1 hour ago, grrclark said:

I agree with your last statement, so long as he presents any sort of risk then he should be incarcerated, and what we have seen evidenced is that those involved in the process are incapable of assessing that risk so we must assume that he does present a risk; the assumption must favour wider society in this case and not the individual.

Absolutely

The regret, if that is the correct word, is that the system supposedly designed to rehabilitate actually appears to have done quite the opposite and that should be a concern for all of us.

Yes regret is the right word, because unlike some blowhards seem to think, rehab does work, but it needs to be at an early stage and methodically and individually applied.

 

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Rehabilitation very very rarely works, people who commt murder should be disposed of, falling that, life should mean life.

They were never sentenced to life, please read the article, or something objective about the case.

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a question for henry d.

would you think malc , that rehabilitation would work in this case ? ,  or would you think that its just too late ? , or that hes just too messed up ?.

the ethics of if he should be helped are another question altogether .

im in no way trying to draw you into saying something that can be jumped on malc , im just interested in your thoughts on it mate , and how you see it. for myself , i just cant see anything good in the whole terrible story.

 

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2 hours ago, henry d said:

 

They were never sentenced to life, please read the article, or something objective about the case.

I was already aware they were not sentenced to life.

I've read the article and none of it surpises me, all I see here is a classic case of an offender conditioning and fooling the people who beleive they can actually change the way these vermin think, like I said in an earlier post, most abusers have been abused themselves but for the safety of the public and in this particular case to protect inoccent children, he should be disposed of, that type of offender will never be safe to release, "rehabilitation" virtually never works and is almost always a waste of effort by the time offenders become adults and just puts the public at risk, i dont understand why in this country we're more concerned with offenders than victims and why some people feel they need to make excuses for evil peoples acrions, check the stats on reoffending rates if you don't want to take my word for it.

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12 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

i dont understand why in this country we're more concerned with offenders than victims and why some people feel they need to make excuses for evil peoples acrions, check the stats on reoffending rates if you don't want to take my word for it.

And therein may lie one of the the root causes of the sorry situation?

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16 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

... i dont understand why in this country we're more concerned with offenders than victims and why some people feel they need to make excuses for evil peoples acrions, check the stats on reoffending rates if you don't want to take my word for it.

Going on the above and other statements, you believe that an 11 year old boy is evil and unchangable? On that broad assumption everyone who is convicted should be locked up for life and then crime rates would crash, sorry to use an absurd argument but I can see no other outcome from your argument.

Perhaps there are other reasons people offend and then reoffend, mental ill health for instance. If we tackled that we could stop offending/reoffending. Estates that are run down due to lack of resources usually have schools that underperform, why? Because councils would rather have a few top performing schools and a few that are failing badly than have lots of mediocre schools, is that right? You are poor, your parents received a **** education and you will too, thanks very much caring society, I`ll fend for myself, I`m sure it was Professor Green that did a TEDx talk on this subject, look it up sometime, very illuminating. So you may have mental ill health, lack of money and no resources, perhaps you deaden the pain by substence abuse, you try to make your way through life and end up in jail, what happens when you get out? No Job, a record and you end up even further down the food chain. Why do people reoffend, because some sections of society won`t help because they have it all down in B&W; "They`re scum and will never be anything else! **** `em"

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11 minutes ago, henry d said:

Going on the above and other statements, you believe that an 11 year old boy is evil and unchangable? On that broad assumption everyone who is convicted should be locked up for life and then crime rates would crash, sorry to use an absurd argument but I can see no other outcome from your argument.

Perhaps there are other reasons people offend and then reoffend, mental ill health for instance. If we tackled that we could stop offending/reoffending. Estates that are run down due to lack of resources usually have schools that underperform, why? Because councils would rather have a few top performing schools and a few that are failing badly than have lots of mediocre schools, is that right? You are poor, your parents received a **** education and you will too, thanks very much caring society, I`ll fend for myself, I`m sure it was Professor Green that did a TEDx talk on this subject, look it up sometime, very illuminating. So you may have mental ill health, lack of money and no resources, perhaps you deaden the pain by substence abuse, you try to make your way through life and end up in jail, what happens when you get out? No Job, a record and you end up even further down the food chain. Why do people reoffend, because some sections of society won`t help because they have it all down in B&W; "They`re scum and will never be anything else! **** `em"

Not at all, I will help anyone who will help themselves, but I'm far more concerned with victims and more importantly the future victims of crime, up to 60% of adult prisoners on average will reoffend within just the first year of release (if they get caught that is), many will go on a revolving door in and out of prison their whole lives, causing misery, suffering and sometimes death to innocent, decent, hardworking people, do you think rehabilitation is working? That's not my idea of it anyway.

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19 hours ago, mel b3 said:

a question for henry d.

would you think malc , that rehabilitation would work in this case ? ,  or would you think that its just too late ? , or that hes just too messed up ?.

the ethics of if he should be helped are another question altogether .

im in no way trying to draw you into saying something that can be jumped on malc , im just interested in your thoughts on it mate , and how you see it. for myself , i just cant see anything good in the whole terrible story.

 

I agree with a lot of people , it`s too late.

I did some work on neural pathways a while back and iirc; these are set up early in life and can be altered but it takes time. For instance; social media, originally used for people to get and keep in touch with people online, you can talk and show pictures of important events and someone doesn`t even need to be in the same hemisphere. However add a like button and shares and immediately we are trying to get attention, and if you get loads of likes and lots of positive attention then you feel good and your seratonin (sp) levels go up, which is nice. Similar when you watch porn, with the added happy ending to add more reward to it. The brain then starts to get a pathway which is exactly like a path through a field, if you go down that route it becomes established and the other path you used to take gets slowly covered over and to take that route is hard. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, risky behaviours etc etc (CAN, but usually do) follow this same cycle and it is suggested that some people may have seratonin receptors that are particularly prone to stimulation for certain things, alcohol being the most commonly known.

So for JV to be rehabilitated would be nightmarish, imagine the money and effort to have almost 24/7/365 help to change him? I doubt it could be done anyway as he had alrady supperssed a lot of things during his teens, including his own physical and mental growth.

Should we? As you say ethically we should because he was failed, like many people are, by a system that should help, but we have finite resources, its all so ******* sad

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1 hour ago, henry d said:

I agree with a lot of people , it`s too late.

I did some work on neural pathways a while back and iirc; these are set up early in life and can be altered but it takes time. For instance; social media, originally used for people to get and keep in touch with people online, you can talk and show pictures of important events and someone doesn`t even need to be in the same hemisphere. However add a like button and shares and immediately we are trying to get attention, and if you get loads of likes and lots of positive attention then you feel good and your seratonin (sp) levels go up, which is nice. Similar when you watch porn, with the added happy ending to add more reward to it. The brain then starts to get a pathway which is exactly like a path through a field, if you go down that route it becomes established and the other path you used to take gets slowly covered over and to take that route is hard. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, risky behaviours etc etc (CAN, but usually do) follow this same cycle and it is suggested that some people may have seratonin receptors that are particularly prone to stimulation for certain things, alcohol being the most commonly known.

So for JV to be rehabilitated would be nightmarish, imagine the money and effort to have almost 24/7/365 help to change him? I doubt it could be done anyway as he had alrady supperssed a lot of things during his teens, including his own physical and mental growth.

Should we? As you say ethically we should because he was failed, like many people are, by a system that should help, but we have finite resources, its all so ******* sad

Good post and I agree with alot of what you've said, problem is though, not everyone can be saved, in fact I would say very very few serious offenders can be saved, particularly once they've reached adulthood and even then I'm far more concerned with keeping future potential victims safe, those boys should never have got out, as sad as that is.

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Little more than thirty years ago The Campaign For Civil Liberties, a Labour funded Quango, was actively promoting the view that Paedophilia was a perfectly normal sexual preference and we should not be discriminating against people who wanted to practice it. Harriot Harman was on the payroll, as was her husband I believe. 

You couldn't make it up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10659100/Harriet-Harman-Jack-Dromey-Patricia-Hewitt-and-the-Paedophile-Information-Exchange.html

Edited by Vince Green
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1 hour ago, henry d said:

I agree with a lot of people , it`s too late.

I did some work on neural pathways a while back and iirc; these are set up early in life and can be altered but it takes time. For instance; social media, originally used for people to get and keep in touch with people online, you can talk and show pictures of important events and someone doesn`t even need to be in the same hemisphere. However add a like button and shares and immediately we are trying to get attention, and if you get loads of likes and lots of positive attention then you feel good and your seratonin (sp) levels go up, which is nice. Similar when you watch porn, with the added happy ending to add more reward to it. The brain then starts to get a pathway which is exactly like a path through a field, if you go down that route it becomes established and the other path you used to take gets slowly covered over and to take that route is hard. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, risky behaviours etc etc (CAN, but usually do) follow this same cycle and it is suggested that some people may have seratonin receptors that are particularly prone to stimulation for certain things, alcohol being the most commonly known.

So for JV to be rehabilitated would be nightmarish, imagine the money and effort to have almost 24/7/365 help to change him? I doubt it could be done anyway as he had alrady supperssed a lot of things during his teens, including his own physical and mental growth.

Should we? As you say ethically we should because he was failed, like many people are, by a system that should help, but we have finite resources, its all so ******* sad

Fascinating post and something that interests me hugely.

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29 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Little more than thirty years ago The Campaign For Civil Liberties, a Labour funded Quango, was actively promoting the view that Paedophilia was a perfectly normal sexual preference and we should not be discriminating against people who wanted to practice it. Harriot Harman was on the payroll, as was her husband I believe. 

You couldn't make it up

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10659100/Harriet-Harman-Jack-Dromey-Patricia-Hewitt-and-the-Paedophile-Information-Exchange.html

Unbelievable, I really do despair at times.

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12gauge82; yes a few cannot be turned away from a life where they crash and burn, however the majority can, if, and its a huge IF, there is intervention at an early stage.

EXAMPLE - Young person (M, approx14y.o. from a council estate) punches a teacher, this is the final straw for the school after bad behaviour and other minor problems in class. Following on from some trains of thought on here and I`m afraid to say the school, he is a wrong`un and not worth working on. The school set up some tuition for him which I facilitate at my workplace, and after a settling in period and 1-2-1 work from council youthworkers, and myself he starts to knuckle down. The reason why is he is eventually diagnosed with mild ASD, OCD (the proper OCD) and attention problems. By removing him from the school environment he is able to concentrate as the noise levels are not over stimulating him. There are no other YP to press his buttons and get him to act up and he has attained more in the last 18 months from 2x 2 hour sessions with a teacher and a classroom assistant  a week than he could have done in school. He has the opportunities now to work part (or hopefully full) time with two prospective employers who actively want him as he is an excellent worker, he also has the opportunity to apply for college to become a carpenter and is in a steady relationship. He still has the occasional (ASD) meltdown (he can`t control a meltdown but can stop getting to the point of a meltdown).

Without intervention at the early stage I am fairly sure he would have done something really bad, due to the difficulties he had and the lack of identifying these traits or disorders by the school, however they are snowed under so it isn`t fair to ladle all the blame there. If we want people to flourish then we need to have money to deal with it, but as all political parties tell us we are in a recession, so perhaps we have to ask questions of our political parties too.

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2 hours ago, henry d said:

12gauge82; yes a few cannot be turned away from a life where they crash and burn, however the majority can, if, and its a huge IF, there is intervention at an early stage.

 

EXAMPLE - Young person (M, approx14y.o. from a council estate) punches a teacher, this is the final straw for the school after bad behaviour and other minor problems in class. Following on from some trains of thought on here and I`m afraid to say the school, he is a wrong`un and not worth working on. The school set up some tuition for him which I facilitate at my workplace, and after a settling in period and 1-2-1 work from council youthworkers, and myself he starts to knuckle down. The reason why is he is eventually diagnosed with mild ASD, OCD (the proper OCD) and attention problems. By removing him from the school environment he is able to concentrate as the noise levels are not over stimulating him. There are no other YP to press his buttons and get him to act up and he has attained more in the last 18 months from 2x 2 hour sessions with a teacher and a classroom assistant  a week than he could have done in school. He has the opportunities now to work part (or hopefully full) time with two prospective employers who actively want him as he is an excellent worker, he also has the opportunity to apply for college to become a carpenter and is in a steady relationship. He still has the occasional (ASD) meltdown (he can`t control a meltdown but can stop getting to the point of a meltdown).

 

Without intervention at the early stage I am fairly sure he would have done something really bad, due to the difficulties he had and the lack of identifying these traits or disorders by the school, however they are snowed under so it isn`t fair to ladle all the blame there. If we want people to flourish then we need to have money to deal with it, but as all political parties tell us we are in a recession, so perhaps we have to ask questions of our political parties too.

 

Can't disagree with that, that's good work and the right time to intervene if not sooner if possible, the problem is as you'll know, most of the problems start because the child comes from a broken and dysfunctional home, I'm sure being in the line of work you obviously are, you are aware of the 10 key indicators of a convicted prisoner (or a version of it) I can't remember them all off the top of my head but some of the ones I remember  are, dads been to prison, been expelled from school, uses recreational drugs, smoking is one oddly enough, parents split up and several others which escape me at the moment. My point is, most of those things are out of the control of a rehabilitation program without removing them from their family which I'm sure you also know is another huge problem for rehabilitation as family ties are a huge part, in the vast majority of cases where someone's  offences has reached the point of criminal activity rehabilitation fails far more often than it works, i find that unxceptable as its innocent decent people who bare the brunt of often heinous crimes by people released from prison. I think the job you obviously do is a very noble, difficult and often thankless task but unfortunately by the time they reach adulthood the reoffending rates for prisoners is as much as 80% long term, that's not good odds and punitive justice, which also didn't work actually had a lower reoffending rate.

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5 hours ago, henry d said:

I agree with a lot of people , it`s too late.

I did some work on neural pathways a while back and iirc; these are set up early in life and can be altered but it takes time. For instance; social media, originally used for people to get and keep in touch with people online, you can talk and show pictures of important events and someone doesn`t even need to be in the same hemisphere. However add a like button and shares and immediately we are trying to get attention, and if you get loads of likes and lots of positive attention then you feel good and your seratonin (sp) levels go up, which is nice. Similar when you watch porn, with the added happy ending to add more reward to it. The brain then starts to get a pathway which is exactly like a path through a field, if you go down that route it becomes established and the other path you used to take gets slowly covered over and to take that route is hard. Alcohol, gambling, drugs, risky behaviours etc etc (CAN, but usually do) follow this same cycle and it is suggested that some people may have seratonin receptors that are particularly prone to stimulation for certain things, alcohol being the most commonly known.

So for JV to be rehabilitated would be nightmarish, imagine the money and effort to have almost 24/7/365 help to change him? I doubt it could be done anyway as he had alrady supperssed a lot of things during his teens, including his own physical and mental growth.

Should we? As you say ethically we should because he was failed, like many people are, by a system that should help, but we have finite resources, its all so ******* sad

thank you for the laymans answer malc , it makes perfect sense , but at the same time opens up many more questions , most of which could probably never be answered.

up until a couple of years ago , i was very much of the opinion that paedophiles/sex offenders etc , should be killed, or imprisoned for life ,  on their first conviction . this opinion was mainly due to the fact , that any evidence id ever seen , seemed to show that a paedophile , would always be a paedophile , they could never stop . or be stopped , or convinced at any real level , that their behaviour was wrong(no more than i could be convinced that sex with a woman was wrong), and that their behaviour would get more extreme , and would sometimes lead to the killing of a child , to get rid of the witness.

a couple of years ago , a very good friend was arrested for the rape of his partners teenage niece . this was a guy that i had known for years , he was the nicest guy in the world , and i would have trusted him to be alone with my children at any time , neither myself , or anyone else in our circle of friends , considered for a second that he could have done anything so vile.

he has since been found not guilty of the rape , BUT , during the police investigation , it was found that he has been getting up to all sorts of things with his own 4 year old daughter , i wont go into the details as i find it quite sickening . he is still waiting to go on trial for these further charges , i believe that he has already admitted to everything(he had no choice as the evidence is overwhelming) . we havent spoken for a couple of years , not since we had a conversation , and he spoke like a guilty man , i told him exactly what i thought of him , and i then told his partner of my suspicions (by then the police already knew about the things with his daughter, but noone had been told as even his partner was still under suspicion).

i dont mind admitting , that the whole lot has me well and truly rattled , and i just cant figure any of it out , or make any kind of sense out of it all . why would he do it ? , how did i not notice ? , why was i dumb enough to allow him near my kids ?, how could i have ever trusted him ?. i have a million unanswered questions, and i feel massively guilty that i didnt spot it and stop him. ive spoken to his now ex partner , and other mates , and everyone feels exactly the same , i feel so sorry for his ex , she was living with him , and he was creeping around the house and carrying out his filthy business while she was asleep at night , how on earth will she ever explain it to her daughter ? , his poor parents are in bits , and it has apparently taken a massive toll on his dad.

he comes from a relatively well to do family  , has been given every opportunity in life (been spoiled rotten). his parents and brothers are lovely folks , he had a nice house , and had started his own business , so what the hell has turned him into this monster ?.

one thing that i find even crazier about the whole dirty insane business , is that he had previously started an affair with a woman that worked for him , as time has gone on , and details have come out , it turns out that this seemingly respectable woman (a hard working single mother with one child) , actually has around five children (the rest are in care) and she has previously been married to two paedophiles , where the hell does that lot fit into the whole sordid mess ?.

ive tried to figure it all out a million times , but i just go around and around in circles , and end up being even more confused by it all.

id like to think that he could be made better , and that he could do something to right some of his wrongs , but all i can see are his monstrous actions , and i can feel no pity when i think that he very probably wont survive prison.

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5 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

thank you for the laymans answer malc , it makes perfect sense , but at the same time opens up many more questions , most of which could probably never be answered.

up until a couple of years ago , i was very much of the opinion that paedophiles/sex offenders etc , should be killed, or imprisoned for life ,  on their first conviction . this opinion was mainly due to the fact , that any evidence id ever seen , seemed to show that a paedophile , would always be a paedophile , they could never stop . or be stopped , or convinced at any real level , that their behaviour was wrong(no more than i could be convinced that sex with a woman was wrong), and that their behaviour would get more extreme , and would sometimes lead to the killing of a child , to get rid of the witness.

a couple of years ago , a very good friend was arrested for the rape of his partners teenage niece . this was a guy that i had known for years , he was the nicest guy in the world , and i would have trusted him to be alone with my children at any time , neither myself , or anyone else in our circle of friends , considered for a second that he could have done anything so vile.

he has since been found not guilty of the rape , BUT , during the police investigation , it was found that he has been getting up to all sorts of things with his own 4 year old daughter , i wont go into the details as i find it quite sickening . he is still waiting to go on trial for these further charges , i believe that he has already admitted to everything(he had no choice as the evidence is overwhelming) . we havent spoken for a couple of years , not since we had a conversation , and he spoke like a guilty man , i told him exactly what i thought of him , and i then told his partner of my suspicions (by then the police already knew about the things with his daughter, but noone had been told as even his partner was still under suspicion).

i dont mind admitting , that the whole lot has me well and truly rattled , and i just cant figure any of it out , or make any kind of sense out of it all . why would he do it ? , how did i not notice ? , why was i dumb enough to allow him near my kids ?, how could i have ever trusted him ?. i have a million unanswered questions, and i feel massively guilty that i didnt spot it and stop him. ive spoken to his now ex partner , and other mates , and everyone feels exactly the same , i feel so sorry for his ex , she was living with him , and he was creeping around the house and carrying out his filthy business while she was asleep at night , how on earth will she ever explain it to her daughter ? , his poor parents are in bits , and it has apparently taken a massive toll on his dad.

he comes from a relatively well to do family  , has been given every opportunity in life (been spoiled rotten). his parents and brothers are lovely folks , he had a nice house , and had started his own business , so what the hell has turned him into this monster ?.

one thing that i find even crazier about the whole dirty insane business , is that he had previously started an affair with a woman that worked for him , as time has gone on , and details have come out , it turns out that this seemingly respectable woman (a hard working single mother with one child) , actually has around five children (the rest are in care) and she has previously been married to two paedophiles , where the hell does that lot fit into the whole sordid mess ?.

ive tried to figure it all out a million times , but i just go around and around in circles , and end up being even more confused by it all.

id like to think that he could be made better , and that he could do something to right some of his wrongs , but all i can see are his monstrous actions , and i can feel no pity when i think that he very probably wont survive prison.

For a start please please don't beat yourself up, that sounds like a really classic case and fits the profile of most paedophiles (the other rarer type tend to be predatory who will attack children they don't know).

They tend to be intelligent, respected and highly manipulative people who spend months or more often years gaining people' trust to carry out their offending, it's virtually impossible to know before they're caught.

They can't be stopped being attracted to children, they can sometimes be rehabilitated to not act on it, I say don't give them a seconed chance.

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