Harnser Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, Penelope said: That would also close the little boys down too. The 16 men who release 500 on my shoot would be scuppered and you say that might not be a bad thing? Yes it would be a bad thing for all the smaller syndicates as well . We are all going to see a back lash from the way some large profit making shoots operate . The way they operate is undifencible and I am sure that we are going to see serious changes in the way that we carry on shooting . This government or another government will forced to legislate a change in how we operate as shooters . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 34 minutes ago, Harnser said: It’s not looking good at the moment for game shooting thanks to the greedy profit orientated big shoots . Shame on them . I don’t think any government would have the nuts to ban shooting outright . They would be more subtle by imposing bag limits (not always a bad thing ) or worst banning the rearing of game birds for shooting . That would close the big boys down overnight . Maybe not a bad thing . Harnser I think that there would be some sort of legislation put in place where the shoots have to demonstrate that a certain percentage of the birds released and subsequently shot have made their way into the food supply chain. This would of course have implications in how these things are reported and there would be a burden of responsibility on the shoots to be able to effectively demonstrate what the route into the supply chain is with all the necessary traceability, etc. There might even be a tax levy for shoots that do not meet the necessary percentage or for those above/below some pre-determined thresholds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 46 minutes ago, Harnser said: It’s not looking good at the moment for game shooting thanks to the greedy profit orientated big shoots . Shame on them . I don’t think any government would have the nuts to ban shooting outright . They would be more subtle by imposing bag limits (not always a bad thing ) or worst banning the rearing of game birds for shooting . That would close the big boys down overnight . Maybe not a bad thing . Harnser You really should take the time to think through the implications of what you suggest. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I do not wish to see any further regulation/restrictions on shooters and shooting, I support the individuals freedom of choice, within both legal and moral boundaries!......but.....with freedom comes responsibility.........if shooters/shooting acts irresponsibly, disapproval will bring about regulation! In other words if shooting won't regulate itself, I fear someone else will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Scully said: You really should take the time to think through the implications of what you suggest. Just a thought. It’s not what I think scully or what I think will happen . It’s what will be forced on us by government . It’s a real chance that bag limits or the banning of rearing game birds could be introduced. Just a thought . harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Harnser said: It’s not looking good at the moment for game shooting thanks to the greedy profit orientated big shoots . Shame on them . I don’t think any government would have the nuts to ban shooting outright . They would be more subtle by imposing bag limits (not always a bad thing ) or worst banning the rearing of game birds for shooting . That would close the big boys down overnight . Maybe not a bad thing . Harnser I like yourself and others find the waste of these birds unacceptable, but I don’t think the number of shot birds would matter so much if they could move the birds into the food chain, unfortunately this is not happening, don’t think a ban on releasing birds on a small scale is a good idea, as it would mean the end for a lot of small shoots that do a lot of good work on the land by improving habitat that encourages and helps other wildlife. What’s the answer, perhaps a contract with game dealers on the amount of birds they are willing to buy and shoots restricting their bags to match this demand. I know a lot of big commercial shoots would probably cease to exist if they could not offer these big bags to very wealthy people willing to pay, unfortunately the very fact that these people are wealthy will be part of the antis argument against this type of shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I do not wish to see any further regulation/restrictions on shooters and shooting, I support the individuals freedom of choice, within both legal and moral boundaries!......but.....with freedom comes responsibility.........if shooters/shooting acts irresponsibly, disapproval will bring about regulation! In other words if shooting won't regulate itself, I fear someone else will! Never a truer word said and it doesn't just apply to bag numbers. With regard to the bag, it's worth noting that it's a numbers game. If the bag(s) were to be limited by legislation then the numbers reared would need to be decreased. At what level would the producers find it uneconomic to trade and cease to do so? Alternatively, to continue production on a far smaller scale and remain in the black, what would then be the retail price? You can bet your bottom dollar that any increase would be dramatic and therefore although a smaller shoot would not be directly affected by any legislation it would be indirectly so on grounds of cost. Therefore, big or small, both could well end up going to the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I'm not sure how any legislation could be policed,it would take years to set up and it's a 3 months a year job and nobody is going to or be able to count every bird released on any one shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 9 hours ago, Mungler said: It’s all about the demonisation of Shooting and the underlying class war against Shooting - we all live in castles, ride horses, drive range rovers and chase foxes don’t you know. There’s plenty of PETA clips flying round the internet of KFC-esque raised chickens that don’t make the grade going into industrial shredders but no one cares because the majority like a cheeky Kentucky. This is different because of the perception of shooters and shooting. You beat me to it Mungler but exactly this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Harnser said: It’s not what I think scully or what I think will happen . It’s what will be forced on us by government . It’s a real chance that bag limits or the banning of rearing game birds could be introduced. Just a thought . harnser It’s the fact that you state the banning of rearing game birds for shooting may not be a bad thing! For whom exactly? I simply find it staggering that anyone who shoots live quarry could even consider it to be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I must admit the views of some on these threads saddens me, coming from fellow shooters, some are very quick to constantly believe the worst and never give the benefit of doubt. Once legislation is passed that will not be the end off it, only the beginning of the end for shooting, the anti's/political parties will just keep screwing any limits on either bags or released birds down until it affects everyone not just the 'big bag/ toff's' days It's not the shoots fault there is obviously a growing demand for these so called 'big bags' or else they wouldn't exisit. its not like it was in the past when the laird hosted the shoot and it was his decision how big the bag was, these days are being asked for by someone Sadly big business has moved into the countryside, wether its these commercial shoots, battery chickens or dairy cows than can live there entire life without walking on grass, some beef cattle aren't that far behind either spending most of there life in sheds. I'm sure many of the older generation of farmers are not overly happy with the way 'modernisation' has went but they have to just to keep the farm going. As I've said before I've been involved with my dogs in a lot of big shoots over 3 decades and even now have never yet heard 1st hand of anyone dumping birds, althou I can can see the chance of it happening being more likely over the past few years. Up until this year the birds have always been worth money so I can't understand why a shoot would destroy birds costing them money. I actually think the game dealers have a lot of blame in this supply farce, they've been ripping shooters/stalkers of for years. Yes they don't seem too have a market but a lot of that is due to their pricing. Has the retail price of oven ready game changed much in the last 10 years? 10 years ago u were getting decent money for game yet now there getting paid to take the birds/ or birds for free but oven ready game is pretty much the same price. Some ones making a profit there!! A local dealer was seller birds for 4 quid oven ready, if he was knocking them out for 1 or 2 quid I'm sure the market would be far far bigger. Yes I know they have overheads but I'm sure a proper set up will be plucking/dressing a bird pretty quickly. I knew some fellas plucking/dressing birds for 1 quid a bird, and they were not properly set up for it I bet there not making a similar mark up/profit of chickens when they actually have to pay for the birds too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Small or large bags the fact is birds are shot. Makes no difference to the anti one bird shot is one to many .Pity these shoots can't make sure most birds enter the food chain humane or animal feed . dog food I buy is from chicken by products. To incinerate is a waste unless they can use the heat to generate something useful .Could help with the harvesting argument . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, scutt said: Small or large bags the fact is birds are shot. Makes no difference to the anti one bird shot is one to many .Pity these shoots can't make sure most birds enter the food chain humane or animal feed . dog food I buy is from chicken by products. To incinerate is a waste unless they can use the heat to generate something useful .Could help with the harvesting argument . Totally agree it the wastage that is the damaging fact, but to be fair the game industry/shooting has changed massively locally in the last 10 years with the amount of days shot and size of bags rising dramatically (althou I'm sure the increase would of been 15,20 or even 30 years ago further south) So things/supply of birds has changed drastically quite quickly, but both the big shoots and game dealers should of seen this coming and started creating a market for it I think someone on here said that u can't use lead shot meat for animal food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 The thing is, can we as a shooting community do anything about increasing the sale of game birds I know allot of beaters,keepers and shooters that don't bother with any game after the shoot day. I feel that every single one of us whatever part we play need to look at what we can do to try and prevent the image of our sport getting dragged into the gutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Foodchain blah blah blah…… everytime we try to portray ourselves as hunter-gatherers etc etc, as opposed to shooting for pleasure, we give the 'anti's' the upper hand! If we gave a flying **** about the pheasant (live target) we wouldn't pull the trigger in the first place Some people enjoy shooting, some don't …….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 4 hours ago, scotslad said: I must admit the views of some on these threads saddens me, coming from fellow shooters, some are very quick to constantly believe the worst and never give the benefit of doubt. Once legislation is passed that will not be the end off it, only the beginning of the end for shooting, the anti's/political parties will just keep screwing any limits on either bags or released birds down until it affects everyone not just the 'big bag/ toff's' days It's not the shoots fault there is obviously a growing demand for these so called 'big bags' or else they wouldn't exisit. its not like it was in the past when the laird hosted the shoot and it was his decision how big the bag was, these days are being asked for by someone Sadly big business has moved into the countryside, wether its these commercial shoots, battery chickens or dairy cows than can live there entire life without walking on grass, some beef cattle aren't that far behind either spending most of there life in sheds. I'm sure many of the older generation of farmers are not overly happy with the way 'modernisation' has went but they have to just to keep the farm going. As I've said before I've been involved with my dogs in a lot of big shoots over 3 decades and even now have never yet heard 1st hand of anyone dumping birds, althou I can can see the chance of it happening being more likely over the past few years. Up until this year the birds have always been worth money so I can't understand why a shoot would destroy birds costing them money. I actually think the game dealers have a lot of blame in this supply farce, they've been ripping shooters/stalkers of for years. Yes they don't seem too have a market but a lot of that is due to their pricing. Has the retail price of oven ready game changed much in the last 10 years? 10 years ago u were getting decent money for game yet now there getting paid to take the birds/ or birds for free but oven ready game is pretty much the same price. Some ones making a profit there!! A local dealer was seller birds for 4 quid oven ready, if he was knocking them out for 1 or 2 quid I'm sure the market would be far far bigger. Yes I know they have overheads but I'm sure a proper set up will be plucking/dressing a bird pretty quickly. I knew some fellas plucking/dressing birds for 1 quid a bird, and they were not properly set up for it I bet there not making a similar mark up/profit of chickens when they actually have to pay for the birds too. I don't think too much blame can be put on game dealers. I think part of the problem lies with the fact that game shoots abroad are shooting more birds, so the demand for ours is less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, motty said: I don't think too much blame can be put on game dealers. I think part of the problem lies with the fact that game shoots abroad are shooting more birds, so the demand for ours is less. But surely its their responsibility to market game (there own product) any other company would be advertising there product and esp if they seen the foreign export market declining. I do find it quite ironic that folk bother about uk shooting when more and more foreign countries are starting to shoot in a similar fashion, also in many countries when u buy a 30,50 or 100 bird day they give u crates with 30, 50 or 100 birds in for u to release and shoot. In some american FT's they actually put out the same amount of dizzied birds for each dog to run so things are as even/fair as possible If game dealers are not ripping everyone off why has the price of oven ready birds not dropped since they no longer have to pay for birds? I don't have a problem with dealers charging £4 a bird when there paying 2-3 quid a brace for them, but when some are being paid to take them still charging the same price is a mickey take Paying some spotty teenage the minimum wage they don't have to do many pheasants an hour to make a profit, 2 pheasants an hour would pay his wage Aye ur quite right above dougy its up to all shooters to introduce as many mates, neighbours colleagues to game as possible, I've probably gave away about 50 brace so far this year mainly to neighbours and I'm teaching some how to deal with them in the feather I just got into a random conversation with the old dear at the garage tonite, which turned to from pies to game so I'm going to get her a couple of brace of partridge and a few pheasant breasts this week. I must admit it is a pain when u have to pluck/skin or breast them thou esp when ur doing all ur own birds too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 9 hours ago, KB1 said: Foodchain blah blah blah…… everytime we try to portray ourselves as hunter-gatherers etc etc, as opposed to shooting for pleasure, we give the 'anti's' the upper hand! If we gave a flying **** about the pheasant (live target) we wouldn't pull the trigger in the first place Some people enjoy shooting, some don't …….. So based on this, are you saying you think a better approach would be to say we love killing stuff and don't give a monkeys what happens to it afterwards? How is that not "playing into the hands of the anti's"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Scully said: It’s the fact that you state the banning of rearing game birds for shooting may not be a bad thing! For whom exactly? I simply find it staggering that anyone who shoots live quarry could even consider it to be a good thing. There are quite a lot of "wild bird" shoots in the area some of which are grey partridge shoots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Whitebridges said: There are quite a lot of "wild bird" shoots in the area some of which are grey partridge shoots. U must be very lucky where u are whitebridges to have truly wild bird shoots, I bet there is very few truly wild bird shoots (barring grouse) in the whole of scotland Thyre may be plenty claiming to be but really are shooting there neighbours released birds. I must admit the whole wastage thing is probably a bigger issue for contentious shooters than the anti's, for the anti's its just another angle to beat us with, like the whole lead shot thing. Some of u may not know but 2-3 summers ago the John Muir Trust (a sort of charity) decided to go out and slaughter a load of red stags (86) and didn't even attempt to extract them of the hill. Yet no tabloids or news stories even mentioned it, the only paper that picked up on it was the press and Journal rom Aberdeenshire which had some very fair reporting with a lot of keepers /stalkers views. If that was 'toffs ' that went up there for a jolly and slaughtered left 86 stags on the hill there would rightly be uproar but because its a charity no one even mentions it. For a lot of anti's its more a class war and getting 1 over on the 'toff's' than any concerns for animals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 16 hours ago, scotslad said: I must admit the views of some on these threads saddens me, coming from fellow shooters, some are very quick to constantly believe the worst and never give the benefit of doubt. Once legislation is passed that will not be the end off it, only the beginning of the end for shooting, the anti's/political parties will just keep screwing any limits on either bags or released birds down until it affects everyone not just the 'big bag/ toff's' days It's not the shoots fault there is obviously a growing demand for these so called 'big bags' or else they wouldn't exisit. its not like it was in the past when the laird hosted the shoot and it was his decision how big the bag was, these days are being asked for by someone Sadly big business has moved into the countryside, wether its these commercial shoots, battery chickens or dairy cows than can live there entire life without walking on grass, some beef cattle aren't that far behind either spending most of there life in sheds. I'm sure many of the older generation of farmers are not overly happy with the way 'modernisation' has went but they have to just to keep the farm going. As I've said before I've been involved with my dogs in a lot of big shoots over 3 decades and even now have never yet heard 1st hand of anyone dumping birds, althou I can can see the chance of it happening being more likely over the past few years. Up until this year the birds have always been worth money so I can't understand why a shoot would destroy birds costing them money. I actually think the game dealers have a lot of blame in this supply farce, they've been ripping shooters/stalkers of for years. Yes they don't seem too have a market but a lot of that is due to their pricing. Has the retail price of oven ready game changed much in the last 10 years? 10 years ago u were getting decent money for game yet now there getting paid to take the birds/ or birds for free but oven ready game is pretty much the same price. Some ones making a profit there!! A local dealer was seller birds for 4 quid oven ready, if he was knocking them out for 1 or 2 quid I'm sure the market would be far far bigger. Yes I know they have overheads but I'm sure a proper set up will be plucking/dressing a bird pretty quickly. I knew some fellas plucking/dressing birds for 1 quid a bird, and they were not properly set up for it I bet there not making a similar mark up/profit of chickens when they actually have to pay for the birds too. Fully agree with what you say about the game dealers ,they`ve kept game out of any volume market by their pricing policies. There must be a market opportunity in some form or other at this moment in time ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Whitebridges said: There are quite a lot of "wild bird" shoots in the area some of which are grey partridge shoots. Anyone can have their own little wild bird shoot, but pheasants are notoriously bad parents, and the amount of work involved isn’t negligible. It still doesn’t alter the fact that banning the raising of game birds to be used for ‘sport’ would mean the end of driven shooting in the UK, ultimately followed by the demise of shooting in the UK as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdog Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 If the rumors are true and large commercial shoots have been incinerating game I personally feel the shooting community should speak out and condemn such actions. This one for all, all for one approach with see all released shooting banned. I do not believe the majority of people have a problem with killing for pest control, or killing for the table, however I am sure they would be appalled at the killing animals to incinerate them. We cannot rely on BASC to fight this battle either, they are too in bed with the big business boys. This needs to be led from the grassroots and the public needs to be informed that commercial shooting not a true reflection the majority of sportsmen. This season my driven days have ranged from 30 bird days to 250 bird days. I am not going to lie, I enjoy shooting on 'big' days', however, given the choice I would rather still be shooting on small driven days in 10 years time, than have another couple of years shooting 'big days' with no end market for the birds and consequently see the whole sport banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 weeks ago I took 10 pheasant and 20 partridge oven ready for a whopping £30. A mate had a similar number. I could have had them in the feather for nothing. He couldnt give them away to people,not even those that shot them so had them dressed and gave them to beaters etc. Shortly I shall buy some more. Great meat and cheaper than a bag of spuds. I cannot understand how or why it's wasted (badly shot birds accepted), it's like half a business model and the rest hasn' been thought through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 hours ago, scotslad said: U must be very lucky where u are whitebridges to have truly wild bird shoots, I bet there is very few truly wild bird shoots (barring grouse) in the whole of scotland Thyre may be plenty claiming to be but really are shooting there neighbours released birds. I must admit the whole wastage thing is probably a bigger issue for contentious shooters than the anti's, for the anti's its just another angle to beat us with, like the whole lead shot thing. Some of u may not know but 2-3 summers ago the John Muir Trust (a sort of charity) decided to go out and slaughter a load of red stags (86) and didn't even attempt to extract them of the hill. Yet no tabloids or news stories even mentioned it, the only paper that picked up on it was the press and Journal rom Aberdeenshire which had some very fair reporting with a lot of keepers /stalkers views. If that was 'toffs ' that went up there for a jolly and slaughtered left 86 stags on the hill there would rightly be uproar but because its a charity no one even mentions it. For a lot of anti's its more a class war and getting 1 over on the 'toff's' than any concerns for animals I not so sure about "lucky" scotslad. I think this is more about design and a strategic understanding of landscape and habitat resulting in a conscious decision to create the right environment for "wild game". As for the rest of your post 4th paragraph down i'm disgusted. Whoever gave these "toffs" the go ahead to do this? Utter lack of respect, they should have been removed from the hill and used somehow. You imply the "toffs" were Englishmen. Is this correct? The problem isn't with the "toffs" it's with the ####(s) in Scotland that let this take place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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