Pathetic

[henry d]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

We live in very tolerant, inclusive society, we bend over backwards to help others, and facilitate others failings, disabilities and circumstances, you dont have to be born here, or have paid anything into our system. I presume you use "we" as meaning the state?
Some say we dont do enough, some say we do too much.
But come the end of the day, someone ,somewhere, has to pay for it, 'But theyre  entitled to it' I hear you say ?
Yes, to an extent, but as taxpayers, are we not entitled to have a say in any of this ? Not in this case as it is private and not a public service.
The problem is, as time goes by there ,seems to be more and more beneficiaries ,and less contributors, so at some point the people who want and need, will outnumber those who provide.
The woman in the story got what she asked for, but then changed her mind and decided to pursue it anyway, for what ? No she didn`t, they provided signing for little mix but not for the rest of the group(s?)
Is the aim to make all concerts deaf friendly ? You need to ask her that, neither you nor I have a right to make that assumption.
Ill rephrase that, is the aim to force all concerts to be deaf friendly ? Now you are deffo making assumptions based on nothing at all.
So we can expect them to put prices up to compensate ? Thereby the majority suffer financially for the one or two deaf people who wish to attend, what next after that ? Cost of signer and staging... probably less than a few pence extra on a ticket, so probably easy to be absorbed by the promoter.

You draw the line somewhere sensible, and you draw it on a level playing field, yes you try to help people with disabilities, but try not to do it by hurting people who havnt, they too have rights. So who was hurt?
As the UN states in its 'law' on discrimination, you dont have to be a minority to be discriminated against.
It works both ways. Lets run with this, exactly who was discriminated against, and how were they discriminated against by having a signer there? (Hint; this is where to look The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 )

 

[walshie]

Can't see it's a logical fallacy Henry. If you're going to cater for one person's needs, you'd have to cater for everyone's. The law of averages would suggest at any one concert there would be many people with differing needs.

Anyway I don't wish to argue, so we'll agree to disagree on this one. No harm no foul. 

[old man]

5 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I don't know what work your daughter is employed to do at the nightclub as you have not said.........however in this case It is reported these particular women were employed as "hosts" and provided with skimpy clothes and ordered to wear specific underwear? Why?

 

Doesn't matter if they are in the buff, no entitlement to touch surely?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 

You have completely lost sight of the issue here. 

More concerned that the woman in question gets her pound of flesh, than any sensible, rational discussion on the pros and cons of what she is trying to achieve. 

You tell me then, what she is after, by pursuing this case. 

[spandit]

Don't normally get involved with such debates but my wife is a BSL interpreter and was actually asked to do this job, having interpreted at the O2 arena for Little Mix on a previous tour. She couldn't do it, being busy, but just being able to sign does not make one an interpreter so the offer of a carer ticket wasn't really good enough. I feel some sympathy for the venue as interpreters are expensive but then so are wheelchair ramps and they provide those.

[happypig]

7 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Minorities of all types are using an increasingly PC legal system to establish their "rights"...it is like the Human Rghts Act its a great idea but its being abused, which has bought it into disrepute!......

I see Great Ormand St Hospital have been embarrassed into handing back all past donations raised at a private men only club (presidents Club) auction because the women the organisers employed as hospitality staff were groped and propositioned!.....well wealthy men, attractive women, copious amounts of drink, what do the women expect? They can always choose a different occupation, turn the work down, and/or don't have to accept any unwanted advances............Now the militant feminist crusaders are up in arms claiming abuse.........the women got paid, a massive amount of money was raised for Great Ormand Street Hospital..........the ones who have lost out are the sick kids!

I wasn’t there but sexual assault is a crime.

I would expect to go to work without being assaulted wealthy men or not.

it does not excuse ungentlemanly behaviour which may or may not have crossed the line to a criminal act

[bluesj]

The way I see it is, a company was selling tickets to see and hear something and someone paid for a ticket knowing they could not use part of the service then got the hump because they couldn't use the service. 

Should you sue ford if you buy a car but can't drive or sue Holland and Holland because you bought one of their guns but cant hit a barn if your standing in it?

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, bluesj said:

The way I see it is, a company was selling tickets to see and hear something and someone paid for a ticket knowing they could not use part of the service then got the hump because they couldn't use the service. 

Should you sue ford if you buy a car but can't drive or sue Holland and Holland because you bought one of their guns but cant hit a barn if your standing in it?

I like the car analogy. 

Buy a car, but you can't drive, ask the dealer to provide a driver/chauffeur. 

Sue them if they refuse. 

Dealer relents and provides 24hr chauffeur service FOC. 

Still sue them because you are not getting the 'full experience' of driving. 

[JDog]

I saw the tv interview with the deaf lady this morning and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

[Lloyd90]

5 minutes ago, JDog said:

I saw the tv interview with the deaf lady this morning and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

Neither could she... 

[Scully]

4 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I can only comment on the allegations as reported, but do you know how the reported sexual harassment was described by the "undercover" reporter? Holding the hostesses hand, touching the small of their back and touching their stomach!......which although you claim not to have seen it, I would wager is similar conduct, to that which went on in the example you describe? as is usual at these events...........the difference is no one complained, nor made a political issue of it! 

Ask male hosts, waiters, entertainment etc at a women's only event such as a hen party, what sort of sexual harrassment they have experienced from women, but no one complains or makes a political issue of that!.........and then comment on the "unacceptable" conduct of men at an all male function!

Equality is one thing trying to tilt the balance in favour of one side who identify themselves as "different" is positive descrimination and an example not of equality, but of Political correctness!

You are either in denial,  naive or being deliberately contrary......or all three? Lol!

 

 

You can wager all you want; it doesn't alter the points you raised in your initial post regarding ‘wealthy men, attractive women and copious amounts of drink’ and the outrageous comment ‘what do the women expect?’! 

Does the above justify or make it acceptable that women were allegedly ‘groped and propositioned’ ? Your words incidentally, not mine, which you appear to be now claiming didn’t happen, and instead was mere ‘touching’. 

I can assure you that even if those lasses at our night out were ‘expecting’ it, none of them got it, not even when paid to perform for an individual person. They were there to work. 

I have seen women groped ( and I find it hugely embarrassing )  so I am aware it goes on, so can assure you I’m not in denial, or naive, nor being contrary. I simply can’t understand your reasoning, especially that given regarding a woman’s attire...or lack of it. 

Edit: Sorry, I forgot LOL! 

10 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Neither could she... 

?

Edited January 24, 2018 by Scully

[panoma1]

13 minutes ago, old man said:

Doesn't matter if they are in the buff, no entitlement to touch surely?

No one said they were did they? But in the response above you have chosen to ignore the main question! Posed In my posting! So I'll repeat it.....Why?

 

[grrclark]

Some of the opinions expressed on this thread i find incredibly disappointing to read, but having been around PW long enough it is not at all surprising.

The suggestion that it may somehow be OK for the girls at the President Club fundraiser to expect to be groped as some sort of justification is utterly outrageous.  There is no excuse for that sort of physical behaviour.

[Duckandswing]

14 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Some of the opinions expressed on this thread i find incredibly disappointing to read, but having been around PW long enough it is not at all surprising.

The suggestion that it may somehow be OK for the girls at the President Club fundraiser to expect to be groped as some sort of justification is utterly outrageous.  There is no excuse for that sort of physical behaviour.

Amen to that. You just don’t touch. Drunk or not.

[panoma1]

13 minutes ago, Scully said:

You can wager all you want; it doesn't alter the points you raised in your initial post regarding ‘wealthy men, attractive women and copious amounts of drink’ and the outrageous comment ‘what do the women expect?’! My comment referred, as you well know to the professional hostesses employed at the function, not all women!

Does the above justify or make it acceptable that women were allegedly ‘groped and propositioned’ ? Your words incidentally, No, not my words the words of the undercover reporter not mine, which you appear to be now claiming didn’t happen I didn't claim any such thing, I was quoting what the undercover reporter initially claimed! and instead was mere ‘touching’. Again the words of the undercover reporter, not mine! 

I can assure you you can assure me as much as you like, you cant be everywhere so you don't know! Your just speculating for the sake of being contrary that even if those lasses at our night out were ‘expecting’ it none? of them got it,  You claim, you can't know! not even when paid to perform for an individual person. So you were there at every private dance? If you weren't it's just more speculation! They were there to work.No, they were there to earn money!

I have seen women groped ( and I find it hugely embarrassing )  so I am aware it goes on, so can assure you again you can assure me all you like I still believe you are! I’m not in denial, or naive, nor being contrary. I simply can’t understand your reasoning, yep! Because you are being deliberately Contrary especially that given regarding a woman’s attire...it was the situation they put themselves in, as well as the "uniform" they were compelled to wear that was questionable or lack of it.......they always had the option to refuse the gig......but they would not have gotten the reported £200 they received for an hour or twos hospitality "work"

Edit: Sorry, I forgot LOL! 

?

You see contrary and vexatious are easy! Lol!... I didn't forget!

[panoma1]

So come on you guys, who amongst PW male heterosexual membership has never, drunk or sober, in a club or pub or wherever, propositioned or made a move on an attractive female? And either scored or read the signs wrong and been blown out because the attraction was not reciprocated?.....all the girl has to say is ok or no thanks (or words to that effect).....if you on PW claim to have never propositioned or made a move on a woman? I can only assume you are all single.....unless of course the woman propositioned or made the move on you?

If Political Correctness dictates men are not allowed to try their luck with a woman.....it will soon solve the over population of the planet!

 

Genuine questions!

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Can't see it's a logical fallacy Henry. If you're going to cater for one person's needs, you'd have to cater for everyone's. The law of averages would suggest at any one concert there would be many people with differing needs.

Totally agree.

I don't care what the occasion was / is or what any women were employed as - people who can't keep their hands to themselves are a disgrace - male or female.

[Duckandswing]

5 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So come on you guys, who amongst PW male heterosexual membership has never, drunk or sober, in a club or pub or wherever, propositioned or made a move on an attractive female? And either scored or read the signs wrong and been blown out because the attraction was not reciprocated?.....all the girl has to say is ok or no thanks (or words to that effect).....if you on PW claim to have never propositioned or made a move on a woman? I can only assume you are all single.....unless of course the woman propositioned or made the move on you?

If Political Correctness dictates men are not allowed to try their luck with a woman.....it will soon solve the over population of the planet!

 

Genuine questions!

 

Of course I have attempted to proposition a woman. Didn’t involve touching though.

 

 

[grrclark]

8 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So come on you guys, who amongst PW male heterosexual membership has never, drunk or sober, in a club or pub or wherever, propositioned or made a move on an attractive female? And either scored or read the signs wrong and been blown out because the attraction was not reciprocated?.....all the girl has to say is ok or no thanks (or words to that effect).....if you on PW claim to have never propositioned or made a move on a woman? I can only assume you are all single.....unless of course the woman propositioned or made the move on you?

If Political Correctness dictates men are not allowed to try their luck with a woman.....it will soon solve the over population of the planet!

 

Genuine questions!

 

Yep, been knocked back more times than my ego cares to remember, but sometimes i got lucky.

Never though did making a move on a lass mean that i got handsy and copped a feel because i felt entitled because she was wearing slinky clothing or that she happened to be working in a hospitality role where smiles and friendly patter are part of her job.

[panoma1]

25 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Yep, been knocked back more times than my ego cares to remember, but sometimes i got lucky.

Never though did making a move on a lass mean that i got handsy and copped a feel because i felt entitled because she was wearing slinky clothing or that she happened to be working in a hospitality role where smiles and friendly patter are part of her job.

So how did you get lucky then? just come out with it......and ask "how about It then?" I can't see that working! As I said, if you touch a girl (and I don't mean in their personal areas!) and/or move in to kiss a girl you are trying to pull, and she responds positively, that's how you know your "in" if she tells you to "go away" that should be interpreted as pretty much a rejection!

Some men cannot work out (do not want to!) that the hostess is being nice because it's part of her job and alcohol blurs judgment.....they confuse it with attraction, and try it on, at which point the woman can make apparant which it is.........what happens then is solely her choice!

But it never ceases to amaze me how powerful, wealthy old/ugly men often have a stunningly beautiful young girl on their arm?..........it must be their "pulling" technique eh?

Edited January 24, 2018 by panoma1

[grrclark]

2 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So how did you get lucky then? just come out with it......and ask "how about It then?" I can't see that working! As I said, if you touch a girl (and I don't mean in their personal areas!) and/or move in to kiss a girl you are trying to pull, and she responds positively, that's how you know your "in" if she tells you to "go away" that should be interpreted as pretty much a rejection!

Some men cannot work out that the hostess is being nice (do not want to?) because it's part of her job and alcohol blurs their judgment.....they confuse it with attraction, and try it on, at which point the woman can make apparant which it is.........what happens then is solely her choice!

Chatting first, always, and then it becomes obvious whether there is a chemistry and things can be pursued further, it has always been pretty clear to me whether there is a mutual interest or not.  Never have i led with a hands on approach first.

I agree with you that there can be a misjudgement because someone has misread the signs, but that is not the issue that is being reported at the President's Club event.

Of course we don't know exactly what happened and we can only rely on the accounts of the undercover journalist that attended the event, sure she may be trying to sensationalise and make a name for herself, but I don't believe that.  I think what has been reported is reflective of what will have happened.  Some guys with an over inflated sense of privilege and entitlement crossed the line of decency under the guise of 'I was a bit drunk' or 'they were employed as "hosts" after all' and thought they had a right to grope.  They don't, drunk or otherwise.

[39TDS]

47 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So come on you guys, who amongst PW male heterosexual membership has never, drunk or sober, in a club or pub or wherever, propositioned or made a move on an attractive female? And either scored or read the signs wrong and been blown out because the attraction was not reciprocated?.....all the girl has to say is ok or no thanks (or words to that effect).....if you on PW claim to have never propositioned or made a move on a woman? I can only assume you are all single.....unless of course the woman propositioned or made the move on you?

If Political Correctness dictates men are not allowed to try their luck with a woman.....it will soon solve the over population of the planet!

 

Genuine questions!

 

Me, I have never done that.

I have been on the receiving end many times though, often more surprised than anything and never complained.

(Hasn't happened for quite a while I must admit)

[12gauge82]

It' a fine line between flirting and giving unwanted attention, gripping someone is plain wrong and is sexual assault no doubt about it as was clearly the case in this instance.

The only thing that worries me here, is I can see people scape goated because of the populism surrounding this type of behaviour at the moment, I'd like to think I've never upset anyone with unwanted advances before but then not everyone is as good at reading signs and itd be easy to particually say something in a flirty manner which isn't wanted by the opposite sex, especially when the alcohol is flowing and judgment is clouded, I'd hope if that ever happened, the receiving person would make it clear it was unwanted and you'd make your apology and move on, unfortunately I could see a situation arising where men could be made scapegoats or even set up for the publicity.

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

It' a fine line between flirting and giving unwanted attention, gripping someone is plain wrong and is sexual assault no doubt about it as was clearly the case in this instance.

The only thing that worries me here, is I can see people scape goated because of the populism surrounding this type of behaviour at the moment, I'd like to think I've never upset anyone with unwanted advances before but then not everyone is as good at reading signs and itd be easy to particually say something in a flirty manner which isn't wanted by the opposite sex, especially when the alcohol is flowing and judgment is clouded, I'd hope if that ever happened, the receiving person would make it clear it was unwanted and you'd make your apology and move on, unfortunately I could see a situation arising where men could be made scapegoats or even set up for the publicity.

I'd go along with much of that.

There is a heightened atmosphere just now and i think the #metoo cause has been somewhat hijacked and actually serves to take away from the severity of some of the abuses highlighted through the Harvey Weinstein affair.

I also think the same heightened atmosphere which has perhaps led to an over enthusiastic approach by those with an agenda against men, and i think it has, then it has also led to a degree of hysteria amongst men as well who are now somehow worried they will be labelled as a sex pest for what they consider normal behaviour.

However, I do think that if someone looks at their own normal behaviour and worries that they could be labelled as a pest as a result of that, then they probably do need to moderate their approach.

[Trevorevans]

I too find this unbelievable. The lady paid to go to a concert she knew she wouldn’t be able to hear, all be it so her children could enjoy the experience, it’s a sacrifice I’m sure many parents would make and I really feel sorry regarding her deafness, I wouldn’t want to trade places but this is just mad!. Ok so they provided a signer so she knew the lyrics but how do they possibly make a concert exactly the same experience for everyone attending as people claim the promoters have a duty to do?. How do you sign guitars, drums, piano?, impossible? I’m guessing so. Whatever the promoter/venue did the lady would be lacking in some way therfore within her rights to sue?. Let’s ban concerts altogether then, if one person can’t enjoy it nobody should be able to, right?. I’m not in any way intolerant towards disabilities, my own father is disabled and accepts that he’s not going to run the London marathon but then he’s not going to take the promoter to court over that fact and I wouldn’t encourage him to. We’re attending the Roger Waters concert in Hyde Park over the summer and he’s already enquirered into disabled areas/seating for which he was informed that there is none in particular, there is a possibility of him being put somewhere with a little more space where he MAY be able to sit down but then there’s 4 of us going and if this were a to happen only one of us would be able to join him, as yet he’s not instructed a solicitor. My mother and girlfriend who are also coming with us are both a bit short. Does this entitle them to be put right at the front of the stage? Or should the promoter/venue supply them with something to stand on so they get the same experience as someone a bit taller?. The world is turning Disney. I feel really sorry for the lady but this can’t be right?.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Trevorevans