Variation to cert is this normal ?

[Poacher]

Hi all, just wondering your thoughts / experiences on this...

i have held a FAC for a number of years, the FAC currently has .22lr and .17hmr on it and is an Open certificate and has been open for as any years I can remember. 

I've recently put in a variation for a .308 for deer mgmt and the police (Avon and Somerset) have asked for a supporting letter with landowners permission etc. (noting I've had 10years experience using larger calibres through military).

So by this I'll now be restricted to where I can use this one calibre but not the others ?

Seems completely daft to me as surely the principles of safety etc are the same ?

Is this worth kicking up a fuss over or should I just roll over and ask them to open it up in 6months time ? 

 

Thanks 

 

[steve_b_wales]

The fact that you have been in the military doesn't make a difference to most police forces. You could appeal to have the restriction lifted (if you are a member of BASC, as them for advice) or you could just go with the flow and request it to be lifted in 6 months, as you mentioned.

[fruity]

You may find once you've produced the information requested I does not end their .

A fair few forces will then ask for proof of any stalking experience with the  variation calibre you have applied for  (and not military) .

At times they ask for DSC 1 or a letter off a mentor who can back up your CF use .

All depends of issuing force of course :).

Good luck 

[Strongman]

I have just recently had the restrictions lifted on my FAC. I was told that if I put a variation in for a larger calibre then restrictions would be applied to that calibre until I can prove experience. I was advised to keep a diary of kills and of ammunition held and used to back up my request for having my restrictions lifted, which seemingly worked. I would expect that you will need to prove the need for the larger calibre and this would be backed up by a permission that is cleared for that calibre possibly.

[Poacher]

Ah ok seems fairly commonplace then. Not sure I entirely agree that restrictions should be placed on individual calibres but then that's just my 2p. To me a dangerous shot is a dangerous shot no matter what calibre. 

(The idea that they would put a restriction on say a variation for a .243 if you already had .223 or similar, just seems nonsensical to me?) hey ho 

[Jaymo]

The request for ‘evidence’ to support your desire to obtain a larger calibre is normal- whether or not it changes or places an additional ‘closed’ type restriction will of course be down to your Force I think.

[CharlieT]

As Jaymo says, supplying evidence of where you can use a given caliber is the norm in justifying your "good reason" to possess and has nothing to do with the decision the police may come to as to whether you are granted an open condition for that particular caliber.

[Poacher]

Thanks ... Hmm interesting, I have no issues supplying details of where use will primarily be, but may well try and argue to keep it open, based on previous experience and keep fingers crossed 

[Graham M]

Makes no difference. I have been shooting for over 45 years and have an open ticket, but!!!! although my .22 and .17Hmr are OK on my local farm, my firearms dep't demanded a named farm that had been passed for all calibres up to and including .308. As I am a member of a syndicate that has such a piece of land I simply used that land for my FAC. And as it is an open ticket I can use my rifles on my local farm.

Never used to be like it but things have really tightened up over the last few years.

 

[Good shot?]

Not long ago had a .222 added to my open cert, my first centrefire. I also have .17 HMR (passed for Fox) and .22lr both with AOLQ.

I still had to have land passed for .222 calibre and fortunately it was.

My problem then was FEO wanted me to have experience with the .222  even though guidlines say 'experience is not calibre specific' and would not grant vermin / AOLQ for that rifle..

In the short  time I had shot 80 practise/ zeroing rounds and several foxes they agreed to add AOLQ for .222 and ammended my licence.

[Dekers]

Just because they have asked for site details it doesn't necessarily follow you will be restricted to those sites.

This is pretty standard stuff, they want to know you have good reason.   Most people on renewal, even with OPEN FAC have to provide some sort of permission details!

[Rst1990]

when ever I have filled in the variation form there is a box that asks “please provide land/club details” I’ve always wrote the address down that  corresponds to the rifle for variation, did you not do this?

[oowee]

I am with Avon too and have had my licence since 2015 mostly rim fire but in the last 10 months (after a centre fire course)  a .243. I asked for my ticket to be opened 6 months ago which they did for the rim fire only and this week opened it for the .243. I shoot over 24 farms and have been using them both 3 or more times a week. I was asked to keep a diary and was able to demonstrate that it made sense to open it up given the continual requests for land visits, and the variety of land i was shooting over. I would say they seem pretty good and consistent with there approach even if it was a fair bit of paff for me. If you have only limited places to shoot it probably does not make a lot of odds as you can get the other land cleared if it's not already. The down side is when you get asked to do a job and you can't respond. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by oowee

[Rim Fire]

i put in for a 308 already having a 243 on an open ticket he didn't put  any restrictions on the 308 

[Poacher]

23 hours ago, Rst1990 said:

when ever I have filled in the variation form there is a box that asks “please provide land/club details” I’ve always wrote the address down that  corresponds to the rifle for variation, did you not do this?

nope, don't remember seeing it on the form but that's most likely my mistake

23 hours ago, oowee said:

I am with Avon too and have had my licence since 2015 mostly rim fire but in the last 10 months (after a centre fire course)  a .243. I asked for my ticket to be opened 6 months ago which they did for the rim fire only and this week opened it for the .243. I shoot over 24 farms and have been using them both 3 or more times a week. I was asked to keep a diary and was able to demonstrate that it made sense to open it up given the continual requests for land visits, and the variety of land i was shooting over. I would say they seem pretty good and consistent with there approach even if it was a fair bit of paff for me. If you have only limited places to shoot it probably does not make a lot of odds as you can get the other land cleared if it's not already. The down side is when you get asked to do a job and you can't respond. 

this is my worry, well until 6mths time when i'd hope to get it opened 

[Rst1990]

2 hours ago, Poacher said:

nope, don't remember seeing it on the form but that's most likely my mistake

 

It’s the same box that you wrote the calibre and type of firearm 

They need a address to go with the variation even if it’s going to come back as open. I assume this to be the reason why they have asked.

Friend of mine applied for 243 and received it open but they also wanted a permission letter off of the land owner, think this was because they wanted proof that said Deer was on land, this maybe why they want it?

if you have good reason they will send it back open, a chat with your Feo will help.

[Savhmr]

Good reason, as others have said, needs to be established before you will be granted permission to have .308 added to your FAC.  The separate issue of open or closed can be down to each individual force's policy.  In general terms, most (but not all) forces like to see evidence of a track record of safety, and some even stipulate a minimum time of ownership of something like a .308 before they will open the cert (like Glos now do).  Their point is that they cannot reasonably be expected to know the competency of each applicant until they have proved their track record, or their safety credentials, so until they have been reasonably established they won't take the risk of someone wondering about the countryside with a high energy CF rifle, and understandably so.  Like the OP, my own military experience counted for nought and I had to "serve my time" before all my cals were opened.  

What helps here is being proactive. Talk to your FEO, get them to meet you on your land, walk the land with them and make sure you demonstrate your in depth knowledge of the land boundaries, safe backstops, PRWs, buildings, any workers who use the land and such-like.  That, allied to you already having an FAC will help, but may not be a shortcut to having a ticket opened.  The guidance says that you cannot unreasonably have your CF application withheld  or refused, but providing good reason, having formal permission to use the calibre by the landowner and evidencing experience and safety are all reasonably required and rightly so. 

Arguing the point about open or closed certificate with your licensing authority is not likely to do you any favours. Perhaps revisiting the condition in a year or two once you've put a good few rounds down-range will see your ticket opened.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Savhmr