Panorama - Driven Game Shooting

[Salopian]

In reply to Charlie T,

 You really need to get your facts correct , yes I made a mistake about Beef Farmers and Bull Calves , I meant Dairy Herd Bull calves , you obviously know very little about intensive chicken rearing for the Supermarkets ,and as for me being negative about Gameshooting you could not be further from the truth .

What I am negative about is poor Sporting practices and yes the Anti's will hang us out to dry over it . But I certainly am not an anti .

If you have nothing constructive to say , keep your lip buttoned.

[CharlieT]

2 hours ago, Salopian said:

In reply to Charlie T,

 You really need to get your facts correct ,yes I made a mistake about Beef Farmers and Bull Calves , I meant Dairy Herd Bull calves , you obviously know very little about intensive chicken rearing for the Supermarkets ,and as for me being negative about Gameshooting you could not be further from the truth .

What I am negative about is poor Sporting practices and yes the Anti's will hang us out to dry over it . But I certainly am not an anti .

If you have nothing constructive to say , keep your lip buttoned.

Well, all I can say is I'm glad my poultry fattening unit doesn't suffer the massive losses you suggest, otherwise I'd be out of business, but as you suggest, I will heed your rude suggestion and keep quiet.

[Velocette]

I doubt if this will improve matters either,,if it gets through.

http://www.countryside-alliance.org/concerns-animal-welfare-bill-grow/?utm_campaign=294508_Newsletter - 260118&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside Alliance&dm_i=44G9,6B8S,1MIQQA,OMTT,1

[Scully]

Contrary to what I expected, the topic of big bag driven shooting was never mentioned by anyone last night; whereas at the end of the days shooting that afternoon, the general consensus was that ‘we’ as a shoot, could do nothing about it, but that ‘it would do for us’. Typical shooter lethargy. Mentioning that we could as individuals all bombard our shooting organisations with emails etc is met with the usual lowered heads and shrugged shoulders! ? You just simply couldn’t make it up! 

Anyhow, the keeper of a ( none big bag ) commercial shoot who is in our syndicate told us how much the estate paid for its poults last year ( can’t recall now ) but that the game dealer had offered literally pennies for them. A syndicate member who works in our local Sainsbury’s, informed us that just prior to Christmas, Sainsbury’s were selling oven ready pheasant for just over £20.00 per brace. 

I asked him if he had considered contacting our local poultry processing plant. He hadn’t.  

 

 

[grrclark]

Replying to Panama1.

No particular examples I can remember off the top of my head and I really cannot be bothered trawling back through threads to find examples, but there are plenty virtuous tales.

Likewise with specific examples about shooting being a guilty little secret, but there have again been many contributions by those who will candidly admit they don't say to anybody they shoot live quarry unless they know the other person is also a shooter or at the very least not an anti.

Your example about fishing in a barrel partially addresses the first point you asked for an example on, does the pursuit of a more elusive quarry somehow infer a higher moral value, i.e. it is more noble or worthy to pit your skills against the quarry when the outcome is a dead animal in any respect. What you are really saying is that you get more pleasure from testing your abilities, and that is absolutely fair enough, but there we go back to having fun and enjoyment shooting (or catching) something.  The whole point of my comment.

There is no difference from your mooching around and shooting a couple of birds for enjoyment to someone shooting 50 pheasants a drive, or to someone shooting 150 pigeons from a hide.  It is done for pleasure and it involves shooting animals.  That is the inescapable truth.  Of course we might enjoy being out in the country, the fieldcraft associated with the hunt, being able to execute the shot, but you could do all that with a camera.  Ultimately every single one of us who choose to shoot live quarry recreationally do it because we enjoy it.

That does not mean we enjoy watching an animal die and nor does it it mean that we do it purely because of the kill, but a measure of our success of a day out shooting is a dead animal.  Let's not shy away from that.  However we choose to dress it up or justify it to ourselves and for whatever reason we do that, the very blunt truth is that we kill animals and as part of that overall process we enjoy ourselves.  As Stevo mentioned earlier, that is the objectionable fact to so many in the anti shooting community and it is something we cannot escape so let's not try to pretend otherwise.

As for your last comment about not many guns will say "I enjoyed killing all those birds", I agree that they might not use that language, but ultimately that is exactly what they have enjoyed.  Have a quick look in the sporting pictures thread and how many write ups are there of people talking about a great day on the pigeons or crows and pictures of neatly lined up dead birds in a row.  That proud boast of it was a 100+ bird day.  If that is not an absolutely explicit statement of saying I enjoyed killing all those birds then what is it?

 

[panoma1]

42 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Replying to Panama1.

No particular examples I can remember off the top of my head and I really cannot be bothered trawling back through threads to find examples, but there are plenty virtuous tales.

Likewise with specific examples about shooting being a guilty little secret, but there have again been many contributions by those who will candidly admit they don't say to anybody they shoot live quarry unless they know the other person is also a shooter or at the very least not an anti.

Your example about fishing in a barrel partially addresses the first point you asked for an example on, does the pursuit of a more elusive quarry somehow infer a higher moral value, i.e. it is more noble or worthy to pit your skills against the quarry when the outcome is a dead animal in any respect. What you are really saying is that you get more pleasure from testing your abilities, and that is absolutely fair enough, but there we go back to having fun and enjoyment shooting (or catching) something.  The whole point of my comment.

There is no difference from your mooching around and shooting a couple of birds for enjoyment to someone shooting 50 pheasants a drive, or to someone shooting 150 pigeons from a hide.  It is done for pleasure and it involves shooting animals.  That is the inescapable truth.  Of course we might enjoy being out in the country, the fieldcraft associated with the hunt, being able to execute the shot, but you could do all that with a camera.  Ultimately every single one of us who choose to shoot live quarry recreationally do it because we enjoy it.

That does not mean we enjoy watching an animal die and nor does it it mean that we do it purely because of the kill, but a measure of our success of a day out shooting is a dead animal.  Let's not shy away from that.  However we choose to dress it up or justify it to ourselves and for whatever reason we do that, the very blunt truth is that we kill animals and as part of that overall process we enjoy ourselves.  As Stevo mentioned earlier, that is the objectionable fact to so many in the anti shooting community and it is something we cannot escape so let's not try to pretend otherwise.

As for your last comment about not many guns will say "I enjoyed killing all those birds", I agree that they might not use that language, but ultimately that is exactly what they have enjoyed.  Have a quick look in the sporting pictures thread and how many write ups are there of people talking about a great day on the pigeons or crows and pictures of neatly lined up dead birds in a row.  That proud boast of it was a 100+ bird day.  If that is not an absolutely explicit statement of saying I enjoyed killing all those birds then what is it?

 

Forgetting your first two sentences, most of your comments after that I can agree with! But as for your last paragraph that is my beef! by putting the emphasis on the killing of birds/animals, we are playing into the hands of those that oppose live quarry shooting! 

Though part of it, shooting (and fishing!) for me, is not principally about killing things, it is about the whole experience, being in the field on moor or marsh (by the river!) the smell, the sounds, the vista, the wildlife, the solitude (or company!) the air, the feeling of wellbeing/relaxation etc etc etc.......and yes, wanting a few shots and hopefully a bird or two (or a fish)

Yes! The measure of success can, sometimes be calculated for various reasons on the size of the bag, but isn't also the perceived success of a large bag, on another occasion, more to do with the human condition, of always wanting and striving to possess and accumulate more? And the feeling these people seem to experience of the more success they have, the more they want!......for example the multi millionaire always wanting to accumulate more money! Do you ever wonder why? They already have more money than they can spend in three lifetimes! But that does not stop them coveting and striving to accumulate and possess more and more!....For me 'more is best' is not a true representation of the pleasure, enjoyment and success in any fieldsport. Pleasure and enjoyment also comes from using experience and field craft to get a shot at or a cast over a 'difficult to get on terms with' wild creature, such as a Pinkfooted goose!...or even a wild migratory Salmon or Seatrout!......That to me is success!......and the above is the reason I Shoot and Fish!

Now if you or anyone else is telling me that you could get as much pleasure/enjoyment/satisfaction shooting (killing) wing clipped pheasants or pigeons on the ground, behind a block of flats in some urban jungle....as long as there are plenty of them.......then you and I are most definitely not in the same library.........let alone the same page of a book!

[motty]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

Replying to Panama1.

No particular examples I can remember off the top of my head and I really cannot be bothered trawling back through threads to find examples, but there are plenty virtuous tales.

Likewise with specific examples about shooting being a guilty little secret, but there have again been many contributions by those who will candidly admit they don't say to anybody they shoot live quarry unless they know the other person is also a shooter or at the very least not an anti.

Your example about fishing in a barrel partially addresses the first point you asked for an example on, does the pursuit of a more elusive quarry somehow infer a higher moral value, i.e. it is more noble or worthy to pit your skills against the quarry when the outcome is a dead animal in any respect. What you are really saying is that you get more pleasure from testing your abilities, and that is absolutely fair enough, but there we go back to having fun and enjoyment shooting (or catching) something.  The whole point of my comment.

There is no difference from your mooching around and shooting a couple of birds for enjoyment to someone shooting 50 pheasants a drive, or to someone shooting 150 pigeons from a hide.  It is done for pleasure and it involves shooting animals.  That is the inescapable truth.  Of course we might enjoy being out in the country, the fieldcraft associated with the hunt, being able to execute the shot, but you could do all that with a camera.  Ultimately every single one of us who choose to shoot live quarry recreationally do it because we enjoy it.

That does not mean we enjoy watching an animal die and nor does it it mean that we do it purely because of the kill, but a measure of our success of a day out shooting is a dead animal.  Let's not shy away from that.  However we choose to dress it up or justify it to ourselves and for whatever reason we do that, the very blunt truth is that we kill animals and as part of that overall process we enjoy ourselves.  As Stevo mentioned earlier, that is the objectionable fact to so many in the anti shooting community and it is something we cannot escape so let's not try to pretend otherwise.

As for your last comment about not many guns will say "I enjoyed killing all those birds", I agree that they might not use that language, but ultimately that is exactly what they have enjoyed.  Have a quick look in the sporting pictures thread and how many write ups are there of people talking about a great day on the pigeons or crows and pictures of neatly lined up dead birds in a row.  That proud boast of it was a 100+ bird day.  If that is not an absolutely explicit statement of saying I enjoyed killing all those birds then what is it?

 

You always write very well. This sums it up for me. I get fed up with folk trying to pretend that they don't shoot for pleasure. I shoot to test my skills and I very much enjoy seeing a particularly difficult bird fold stone dead. It doesn't follow that I get pleasure from watching an animal drawing its last breath - indeed I often feel sorry for a bird that I have to dispatch by hand. This is not enough for me to stop shooting, however, but it is an unfortunate part of live quarry shooting, the same as pricked birds that are never retrieved.

[motty]

7 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Forgetting your first two sentences, most of your comments after that I can agree with! But as for your last paragraph that is my beef! by putting the emphasis on the killing of birds/animals, we are playing into the hands of those that oppose live quarry shooting! 

Though part of it, shooting (and fishing!) for me, is not principally about killing things, it is about the whole experience, being in the field on moor or marsh (by the river!) the smell, the sounds, the vista, the wildlife, the solitude (or company!) the air, the feeling of wellbeing/relaxation etc etc etc.......and yes, wanting a few shots and hopefully a bird or two (or a fish)

Yes! The measure of success can, sometimes be calculated for various reasons on the size of the bag, but isn't also the perceived success of a large bag, on another occasion, more to do with the human condition, of always wanting and striving to possess and accumulate more? And the feeling these people seem to experience of the more success they have, the more they want!......for example the multi millionaire always wanting to accumulate more money! Do you ever wonder why? They already have more money than they can spend in three lifetimes! But that does not stop them coveting and striving to accumulate and possess more and more!....For me 'more is best' is not a true representation of the pleasure, enjoyment and success in any fieldsport. Pleasure and enjoyment also comes from using experience and field craft to get a shot at or a cast over a 'difficult to get on terms with' wild creature, such as a Pinkfooted goose!...or even a wild migratory Salmon or Seatrout!......That to me is success!......and the above is the reason I Shoot and Fish!

Now if you or anyone else is telling me that you could get as much pleasure/enjoyment/satisfaction shooting (killing) wing clipped pheasants or pigeons on the ground, behind a block of flats in some urban jungle....as long as there are plenty of them.......then you and I are most definitely not in the same library.........let alone the same page of a book!

I try to shoot big bags of pigeons from time to time. I really enjoy the fast and furious nature of the days when pigeons are coming in thick and fast. This does not mean I don't enjoy some of the smaller bags I get, but that can depend on what kind of shots were offered and possibly how well I have shot. I also have to admit that I sometimes get bored on a particularly slow day, and I might not enjoy it at all.

I kind of liken big bags to eating a plate of chips. I am not satisfied by just eating a couple. I want the whole plate full.

[panoma1]

15 minutes ago, motty said:

You always write very well. This sums it up for me. I get fed up with folk trying to pretend that they don't shoot for pleasure. I shoot to test my skills and I very much enjoy seeing a particularly difficult bird fold stone dead. It doesn't follow that I get pleasure from watching an animal drawing its last breath - indeed I often feel sorry for a bird that I have to dispatch by hand. This is not enough for me to stop shooting, however, but it is an unfortunate part of live quarry shooting, the same as pricked birds that are never retrieved.

After your second sentence and if you exchange the word "unfortunate" with "inevitable" this is mostly the position I have been pushing...seemingly forever on here!

Enjoyment of shooting is not experienced through just killing "stuff" as has been implied, and success is not just defined by having a huge pile of dead creatures at the end of a day.

[AYA117]

You are arguing over semantics! To 'shoot' something is to 'kill' something.

[panoma1]

1 minute ago, AYA117 said:

You are arguing over semantics! To 'shoot' something is to 'kill' something.

Semantics or not, I agree..... to 'shoot' something may be to 'kill' something..........and "shooting something" may be "killing" something..........but shooting isn't killing something! It may end up doing so though?

I have constantly tried to argue terminology is our enemy......and you call it semantics....well then our enemies are giving us a kicking by using semantics!...........If not, why then do they continually refer to shooting as a "bloodsport"?

[AYA117]

You really hard work are you not. If it makes you feel warm inside to think that you shoot things but do not kill them please carry on. The end result is something is dead that was not before you 'shot' it. Please do not expect any reply from me on this thread,as it is pointless !!!!!

[panoma1]

11 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

You really hard work are you not. If it makes you feel warm inside to think that you shoot things but do not kill them please carry on. The end result is something is dead that was not before you 'shot' it. Please do not expect any reply from me on this thread,as it is pointless !!!!!

Yep me too, I'm out........again! People can make up their own minds now!

[grrclark]

Panoma1, i'm certainly not advocating that there would be any pleasure to be had from shooting wing clipped birds.  To use my own example I wouldn't choose to shoot a pigeon on the ground, but some do and i don't judge them for that, our motivations are all different.

All I am saying in my post is that it serves us no benefit in shying away from what we do, we shoot for pleasure and if we shoot live quarry that means killing things.  I appreciate the kill is not the sole motivation, but the kill is the ultimate objective.

I'm not putting the emphasis on the killing, i simply accept that is the truth of what we do and for us to try to dress it up as something otherwise starts to imply that we feel guilty about it.  

As I said previously, if we cannot talk candidly amongst ourselves about what we do then how on earth do you begin to have a conversation with those that are anti shooting, because if we cannot be honest in what we do we have already lost the argument.

[Bluebarrels]

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 21:33, stevo said:

If the program is as bad as we all fear , I think the game shooting fraternity will have some explaining to do , and I rekon there could be some very dim views taken by the rest of the shooting folk towards them , and rightly so if they have knowingly bought the rest of us shooters and our field sports into disrepute . 

This

[islandgun]

Im definitely the odd one out then,  as the animals I kill are killed because i think it is morally wrong for me not to kill them. I strongly believe it is better to eat a free range wild animal than a mass produced animal,  more sustainable to catch my own fish on a line than a trawled fish from some other part of the country, 

I believe that im being honest and taking responsibility for some of the many dead things that seem to surround my life,  when the day comes that Im not able to shoot an animal dead or boil a lobster then it will be the day I give up meat...........or breathing. 

 

I also believe that it reprehensible that perfectly good food is dumped or even shot in the knowledge that it will be dumped and if it carries on, will sound the death knell for shooting  

[grrclark]

1 hour ago, motty said:

You always write very well. This sums it up for me. I get fed up with folk trying to pretend that they don't shoot for pleasure. I shoot to test my skills and I very much enjoy seeing a particularly difficult bird fold stone dead. It doesn't follow that I get pleasure from watching an animal drawing its last breath - indeed I often feel sorry for a bird that I have to dispatch by hand. This is not enough for me to stop shooting, however, but it is an unfortunate part of live quarry shooting, the same as pricked birds that are never retrieved.

Thanks and I very much agree.  Enjoying shooting is a whole lot more than just the kill, but ultimately if we are talking about live quarry shooting then killing the quarry is the objective of going out with a gun, hopefully that kill is as clean and quick as possible.

We just have to accept that other people will always find killing stuff as unpalatable and ultimately that is the argument that we face.

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Im definitely the odd one out then,  as the animals I kill are killed because i think it is morally wrong for me not to kill them. I strongly believe it is better to eat a free range wild animal than a mass produced animal,  more sustainable to catch my own fish on a line than a trawled fish from some other part of the country, 

I believe that im being honest and taking responsibility for some of the many dead things that seem to surround my life,  when the day comes that Im not able to shoot an animal dead or boil a lobster then it will be the day I give up meat...........or breathing. 

 

I also believe that it reprehensible that perfectly good food is dumped or even shot in the knowledge that it will be dumped and if it carries on, will sound the death knell for shooting  

IG, I suspect that you are one of the odd ones out

[islandgun]

16 minutes ago, grrclark said:

IG, I suspect that you are one of the odd ones out

Ive always known........... but was content to fool myself

[grrclark]

32 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Ive always known........... but was content to fool myself

It's not a bad thing.

[Scully]

On 27/01/2018 at 17:41, old'un said:

Bloody hell Scully I bet you needed a new keyboard trying to keep up with the replies to your posts, must have been hundreds baying for your blood.

? It wasn’t too bad to be honest. Will start another thread for those interested. 

4 hours ago, motty said:

You always write very well. This sums it up for me. I get fed up with folk trying to pretend that they don't shoot for pleasure. I shoot to test my skills and I very much enjoy seeing a particularly difficult bird fold stone dead. It doesn't follow that I get pleasure from watching an animal drawing its last breath - indeed I often feel sorry for a bird that I have to dispatch by hand. This is not enough for me to stop shooting, however, but it is an unfortunate part of live quarry shooting, the same as pricked birds that are never retrieved.

This. 

3 hours ago, motty said:

I try to shoot big bags of pigeons from time to time. I really enjoy the fast and furious nature of the days when pigeons are coming in thick and fast. This does not mean I don't enjoy some of the smaller bags I get, but that can depend on what kind of shots were offered and possibly how well I have shot. I also have to admit that I sometimes get bored on a particularly slow day, and I might not enjoy it at all.

I kind of liken big bags to eating a plate of chips. I am not satisfied by just eating a couple. I want the whole plate full.

.....and this, sum up my opinions on the matter also.

[triumphant59]

Have read with interest the comments of many members on this subject. I shoot driven game, I belong a small syndicate and we average 40 head, shooting 10 days throughout the season. I am lucky enough to get an invite each year to a 200 bird day and very enjoyable it is. A team of 3 pickers up work tirelessly to ensure every bird is found and I always advise the pickers up as to where I think all my birds are. The same cannot be said for all the guns I shoot with and unfortunately many of the privileged few that can afford to shoot on 3 4 5 or 600 bird days don't really care whether their birds are found or not! Can we as a group condone these huge commercial shoots where none of those involved have had a ####ing for not keeping in line when hacking their way through dense briars for a £1 a day!!! 

[Scully]

9 hours ago, triumphant59 said:

Have read with interest the comments of many members on this subject. I shoot driven game, I belong a small syndicate and we average 40 head, shooting 10 days throughout the season. I am lucky enough to get an invite each year to a 200 bird day and very enjoyable it is. A team of 3 pickers up work tirelessly to ensure every bird is found and I always advise the pickers up as to where I think all my birds are. The same cannot be said for all the guns I shoot with and unfortunately many of the privileged few that can afford to shoot on 3 4 5 or 600 bird days don't really care whether their birds are found or not! Can we as a group condone these huge commercial shoots where none of those involved have had a ####ing for not keeping in line when hacking their way through dense briars for a £1 a day!!! 

Have you mentioned this to any of those guns you shoot with who don’t care if their birds are found or not? 

[Savhmr]

20 hours ago, grrclark said:

Replying to Panama1.

No particular examples I can remember off the top of my head and I really cannot be bothered trawling back through threads to find examples, but there are plenty virtuous tales.

Likewise with specific examples about shooting being a guilty little secret, but there have again been many contributions by those who will candidly admit they don't say to anybody they shoot live quarry unless they know the other person is also a shooter or at the very least not an anti.

Your example about fishing in a barrel partially addresses the first point you asked for an example on, does the pursuit of a more elusive quarry somehow infer a higher moral value, i.e. it is more noble or worthy to pit your skills against the quarry when the outcome is a dead animal in any respect. What you are really saying is that you get more pleasure from testing your abilities, and that is absolutely fair enough, but there we go back to having fun and enjoyment shooting (or catching) something.  The whole point of my comment.

There is no difference from your mooching around and shooting a couple of birds for enjoyment to someone shooting 50 pheasants a drive, or to someone shooting 150 pigeons from a hide.  It is done for pleasure and it involves shooting animals.  That is the inescapable truth.  Of course we might enjoy being out in the country, the fieldcraft associated with the hunt, being able to execute the shot, but you could do all that with a camera.  Ultimately every single one of us who choose to shoot live quarry recreationally do it because we enjoy it.

That does not mean we enjoy watching an animal die and nor does it it mean that we do it purely because of the kill, but a measure of our success of a day out shooting is a dead animal.  Let's not shy away from that. That's a pretty sweeping statement.  The measure of success for me is just to get out, whether with the gun, or for a walk, a lot of the enjoyment is tied up with just getting out there.  Taking an animal is a bonus and whilst no shooter can really deny they they enjoy shooting, it is only one part of the overall enjoyment of being in the fresh air in lovely countryside, of the skill in tracking or fieldcraft, of taking a difficult shot well.  I see it more as the reward at the end of the day and if there is no reward for the pot, it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of going out in the first place However we choose to dress it up or justify it to ourselves and for whatever reason we do that, the very blunt truth is that we kill animals and as part of that overall process we enjoy ourselves.  As Stevo mentioned earlier, that is the objectionable fact to so many in the anti shooting community and it is something we cannot escape so let's not try to pretend otherwise.

As for your last comment about not many guns will say "I enjoyed killing all those birds", I agree that they might not use that language, but ultimately that is exactly what they have enjoyed.  Have a quick look in the sporting pictures thread and how many write ups are there of people talking about a great day on the pigeons or crows and pictures of neatly lined up dead birds in a row.  That proud boast of it was a 100+ bird day.  If that is not an absolutely explicit statement of saying I enjoyed killing all those birds then what is it?

 

In addition to my comments in blue, we still (just about) live in a free society where freedom of speech (just!) and freedom to undertake whatever lawful pursuit we wish to means that we do not have to justify what we do, nor should we find ourselves having to justify our activities to others on a shooting forum, of all places.  People have their own reasons for shooting and despite the haughty protestations that we all do it because we enjoy it, some may have stronger motivations than just killing things. 

There are some animals I won't shoot, for my own reasons that I don't need to justify to anyone. That's between me and conscientious decisions that I have taken.  There's others that I do shoot and it has b*gger all with doing it purely for fun.  Truth is, you can't readily go into any local supermarket here and buy pigeon off the shelves, and as my family and I enjoy eating it (it's a fab, healthy and much under-rated meat!), I shoot it.  Sure, I enjoy being out and I enjoy a good shot but the driver is that I like eating pigeon as much as I enjoy shooting. Put the two together and it makes perfect sense to shoot pigeon.  Vermin control to one side and purely personally speaking, I wouldn't go out and shoot pigeon or any other animal, come to that "just for fun".  There are those that do, and openly admit doing it because they enjoy it.  I don't  because it goes against my own moral compass and it has never been the sole driver for me, but rather part of a larger whole, and end product and one that needs no further justification.  We have to be careful here chaps. This is an open forum read by more than just shooters so a one size fits all branding is unhelpful at best.  Those of you that do it purely for the enjoyment, well that's fine and dandy and you need not justify it any more than to admit that.

I agree that hiding the reasons under a bushel, cloaked in cock and bull justifications made purely to appease will never win any arguments in an open debate, so agree with the need for honesty.  I also see that honesty as necessarily extending to long term shooters like myself openly admitting that I'm not a fan of driven shoots, and my reasons are based purely on my experiences of what one or two local driven shoots have done to the countryside, the way they've changed the unspoiled nature of what once was beautiful, unspoiled woodland with a wide biodiversity (now not so biodiverse), the encroachments and nuisance to neighbouring landowners, and to frequent breaches of the law in terms of poaching and trespass which has had to be dealt with by police involvement.   This is one isolated case, and I don't tar all shoots with the same brush and fully support the employment and better land management practices that well managed shoots may bring.   My reasoning has nothing to do with any ideology.  Whilst many will disagree, I don't really care if they do or not as we can all only speak as we find, and enjoy our field sports for a multitude of reasons personal to ourselves.  At the risk of using the phrase again, that's all the justification that is needed providing it is lawful.  We'll all never agree on these things.

[KB1]

On 27/01/2018 at 14:39, grrclark said:

This is the crux of the issue as I see it as well.

On some other debates Scully, in particular, has made some notable posts, in my opinion, where he gets off the fence and says that he shoots live game because he enjoys it.  Many PW contributors try to dress up shooting animals as some sort of selfless, noble and virtuous endeavour on their part, after all they are protecting crops or promoting habitat or other wildlife conservation.

The blunt truth is that anybody that shoots an animal, whether they eat it or not, shoot stuff because they enjoy shooting stuff, take a look in the sporting pictures thread as evidence of this as shooters pose with the dead beasts, with the gun strategically set in frame, as some sort of icon of our skill and prowess.  If we just wanted to bang the gun and test our prowess with the gun we could boom at clays or targets for a load less money.

If within our own community we cannot be honest with ourselves about shooting, and maybe even consider some live shooting as a dirty little secret, then how can we possibly take a compelling argument to people who have never shot.  As an example look at every thread ever on PW about what constitutes a "sporting shot", the wafer thin tenuous strand of moral credibility we attribute to ourselves to justify killing one animal in one circumstance versus another. i.e. size 7.5 pellets is a bad pigeon kill, but size 6 is morally and ethically superior so therefor good pigeon kill, or shooting a pigeon on the ground is unsporting death, but shooting it screaming in at 60mph on a flight line at 50 yards is a fantastic sporting death.

The unavoidable picture is that we shoot animals because we enjoy shooting animals.  None of us need to hunt, we live in a time of surplus in the food supply chain (in this country at least) so we hunt because we can and because we enjoy it.  We justify that to ourselves for a multitude of reasons, to spare our fragile conscience, but ultimately it is simple, we enjoy shooting stuff.

No gun on any game shoot ever said "I really don't enjoy this killing stuff malarky, I am only doing it so I can eat".

That is why people pay for big bag days or silly high pheasant days where banging off 200 cart's a drive is a measure of success, because it is good fun.

That is why shooting is such an easy target and why when arguments are  reduced to the fundamentals we cannot win any emotional debate.  We can of course win on economic and conservation debates, but we need to accept that first means being content to admit that yes we do enjoy shooting and stop trying to hide away from that because that is the only way we can move beyond the emotional.

 

+1 I couldn't agree more…….