Panorama - Driven Game Shooting

[Blackpowder]

The Shoot I beat on has installed a processing line and produces smoked game and game and venison salami to name  those I know of.  Way to go!

 

Blackpowder

[Old farrier]

Big problem that’ll need sorting 

firstly harvesting with a shotgun produces a fair quantity of non viable birds and today’s trend of heavy loads on birds not as high as most think doesn’t help 

then we have a market for shooting them with high profit and little thought put into the end product 

some could say that until the shooting has earned the money it’s hard to put the processing into place 

and the big problem is people aren’t hungry enough 

back in the days people were glad to be offered Game for food and the big bags weren’t wasted 

There are big steps being taken by a lot of shoots and shooting people to ensure that the game isn’t wasted 

however the tv and media will always go for the ones that don’t 

Just a few thoughts on it 

all the best 

of 

[panoma1]

Though big bag days are not my bag, I would not support banning big bag driven days...........however, dumping dead birds in a skip or incinerating them is just unconscionable!

If self regulation is not forthcoming, and regulation is forced on shooting, I would support regulation based on the shoot in question only being permitted to kill the number of birds they have a provable market for!

If they can prove a market for say 500 birds.......how can any right thinking person object?

 

[Guest stevo]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

 

If they can prove a market for say 500 birds.......how can any right thinking person object?

 

Because game shooting just can’t be justified, you just can’t ! 

Just because you find an outlet for the birds does NOT make it right , as far as a massive percentage of the general public is concerned. 

Paying lots of money to shoot birds that are bread for no other reason than to be driven to a line of guns is just cruel . And morally wrong on soooo many levels , and as shooters were are just not able to understand/ see how wrong it is . Instead we will just come up with our own unique way of quantifying our past time . But the plain cold hard truth of it is ...... it is  a bit naughty, and we all know it . 

For a long time now the media has always found a big stick to beat us with for doing something we/some enjoy . And to be honest it’s not hard for them to find a bigger and bigger stick to do it with as the game shooting fraternity really has not done themselves or anyone else any favours at all . And I can’t help but feel this panorama program is going to be a total massacre. BASC are going to be so out of there depth with this one . Let’s face it there pretty **** at the best of times . God help us ! 

Gone are the days when if you want game meat you would go down to you local butchers and buy a brace , that had been shot the day before by the local shoot , that was just part of being / living in the countryside .

but not anymore , times have changed and so have attitudes , yes we are seeing a small surge in the sale of some game meat in some areas , but this is being sold by your super markets and being suplied by ethically farmed means . 

No tweed clad fat blokes with red cheeks having a go with there shotgun for the second time that year , and leaving a trail of pricked birds for the beaters to pick ,  and all in the name a ......... jolly good day out ! 

This is how I feel a lot of the public feels about game shooters . 

So you can find a plate for EVERY bird shot , but all the while people are paying money to go out and shoot birds for fun you will never win your Argument and never get to put you points across . 

Lets face it , nowadays you can’t buy a half a dozen eggs unless the chickens have had a better life than most people  ?

 

and that  ladies and gentlemen is just the way **** is ..

Edited January 27, 2018 by stevo

[panoma1]

Slaughtering millions of chickens, sheep, pigs, cattle is justified because we eat them, shooting millions of pheasants is just as defendable....if we eat em!

Free range, healthy, better life, are all points that make game meat more defendable than farmed......we could of course grow pheasant on in pens feed em up and slaughter em! Apart from the weak market for game meat, why not? This is what we do with chickens, turkeys and other farmed animals!..........is this more defendable than shooting them? I think not!

[Guest stevo]

3 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Slaughtering millions of chickens, sheep, pigs, cattle is justified because we eat them, shooting millions of pheasants is just as defendable....if we eat em!

Free range, healthy, better life, are all points that make game meat more defendable than farmed......we could of course grow pheasant on in pens feed em up and slaughter em! Apart from the weak market for game meat, why not? This is what we do with chickens, turkeys and other farmed animals!..........is this more defendable than shooting them? I think not!

Hey we’re on the same side here , but like I say All the while people are paying money to shoot for fun you really don’t have a credible argument, 

Why don’t you test the water with your theory and pop over the the LACS or the RSPB forums and see how you get on with it . 

You will get eaten alive ! 

[Gordon R]

I don't often find myself with a view which aligns with panoma1, but he has a valid point. I must be mellowing.

Forget LACS or RSPB - we will never convince them. It is the public at large who bring pressure to bear. Social media has given a serious outlet to those with an axe to grind.

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, stevo said:

Hey we’re on the same side here , but like I say All the while people are paying money to shoot for fun you really don’t have a credible argument, 

Why don’t you test the water with your theory and pop over the the LACS or the RSPB forums and see how you get on with it . 

You will get eaten alive ! 

If we are on the same side perhaps you might consider not using terminology worthy of the organisations to which you refer?

Did I not say in my first posting on the subject "how can any right thinking person object"? I do not believe many of the members of the two organisations you mention fit into this category? 

 

[Guest stevo]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

 

Forget LACS or RSPB - we will never convince them.

I couldn’t agree more with you Gordon , but these are the people we’re up against , and I don’t know about you but they seem to be getting better and better . We just seem to be treading water nowadays . 

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

If we are on the same side perhaps you might consider not using terminology worthy of the organisations to which you refer?

Did I not say in my first posting on the subject "how can any right thinking person object"? I do not believe many of the members of the two organisations you mention fit into this category? 

 

Well I’m sure time will tell . ?

[old'un]

Does not matter what we say or think, at the end of the day if any politician/party think they can get votes by supporting a ban or restriction on reared game bird shooting then they will jump on that bandwagon in the blink of an eye.  

[AYA117]

As I said in another post on this sublect 'Class hate is a powerful weapon'  Look what happened to fox hunting !!!!!

[grrclark]

45 minutes ago, stevo said:

Hey we’re on the same side here , but like I say All the while people are paying money to shoot for fun you really don’t have a credible argument, 

Why don’t you test the water with your theory and pop over the the LACS or the RSPB forums and see how you get on with it . 

You will get eaten alive ! 

This is the crux of the issue as I see it as well.

On some other debates Scully, in particular, has made some notable posts, in my opinion, where he gets off the fence and says that he shoots live game because he enjoys it.  Many PW contributors try to dress up shooting animals as some sort of selfless, noble and virtuous endeavour on their part, after all they are protecting crops or promoting habitat or other wildlife conservation.

The blunt truth is that anybody that shoots an animal, whether they eat it or not, shoot stuff because they enjoy shooting stuff, take a look in the sporting pictures thread as evidence of this as shooters pose with the dead beasts, with the gun strategically set in frame, as some sort of icon of our skill and prowess.  If we just wanted to bang the gun and test our prowess with the gun we could boom at clays or targets for a load less money.

If within our own community we cannot be honest with ourselves about shooting, and maybe even consider some live shooting as a dirty little secret, then how can we possibly take a compelling argument to people who have never shot.  As an example look at every thread ever on PW about what constitutes a "sporting shot", the wafer thin tenuous strand of moral credibility we attribute to ourselves to justify killing one animal in one circumstance versus another. i.e. size 7.5 pellets is a bad pigeon kill, but size 6 is morally and ethically superior so therefor good pigeon kill, or shooting a pigeon on the ground is unsporting death, but shooting it screaming in at 60mph on a flight line at 50 yards is a fantastic sporting death.

The unavoidable picture is that we shoot animals because we enjoy shooting animals.  None of us need to hunt, we live in a time of surplus in the food supply chain (in this country at least) so we hunt because we can and because we enjoy it.  We justify that to ourselves for a multitude of reasons, to spare our fragile conscience, but ultimately it is simple, we enjoy shooting stuff.

No gun on any game shoot ever said "I really don't enjoy this killing stuff malarky, I am only doing it so I can eat".

That is why people pay for big bag days or silly high pheasant days where banging off 200 cart's a drive is a measure of success, because it is good fun.

That is why shooting is such an easy target and why when arguments are  reduced to the fundamentals we cannot win any emotional debate.  We can of course win on economic and conservation debates, but we need to accept that first means being content to admit that yes we do enjoy shooting and stop trying to hide away from that because that is the only way we can move beyond the emotional.

 

[CharlieT]

Well said that man.

Never a truer word spoken.

[Scully]

3 hours ago, stevo said:

Hey we’re on the same side here , but like I say All the while people are paying money to shoot for fun you really don’t have a credible argument, 

Why don’t you test the water with your theory and pop over the the LACS or the RSPB forums and see how you get on with it . 

You will get eaten alive ! 

I don’t, and never have felt the need to justify what I do, and having been on the LACS website forum and debated with members on there about what I do, the minute someone accuses you of shooting for fun and you admit it, then you’ll find that all of a sudden you have the upper hand and it is them on the back foot. 

You could ask them if they eat meat ( only us westerners have the luxury to be vegetarian or vegan ) and if so why. Then point out to them that they are sanctioning the death of that animal simply because they enjoy the taste! It’s not often something any of them have given much thought to;  being so wrapped up in their self perceived higher moral standing. 

If you’re honest you won’t get eaten alive at all. 

Try it, it’s great fun. ?

As an addition, I would just add that in my opinion, driven shooting won’t be banned, but it very well may come under regulation of some kind. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Scully

[AYA117]

Well said grrclark.

[Guest stevo]

25 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t, and never have felt the need to justify what I do, and having been on the LACS website forum and debated with members on there about what I do, the minute someone accuses you of shooting for fun and you admit it, then you’ll find that all of a sudden you have the upper hand and it is them on the back foot. 

You could ask them if they eat meat ( only us westerners have the luxury to be vegetarian or vegan ) and if so why. Then point out to them that they are sanctioning the death of that animal simply because they enjoy the taste! It’s not often something any of them have given much thought to;  being so wrapped up in their self perceived higher moral standing. 

If you’re honest you won’t get eaten alive at all. 

Try it, it’s great fun. ?

As an addition, I would just add that in my opinion, driven shooting won’t be banned, but it very well may come under regulation of some kind. 

Scully , I don’t and won’t justify myself to anyone , before I packed up shooting live quarry ( last year ) I shot because I enjoyed shooting , at no point over the 30 odd yrs that I shot did It ever feel like a sport / sporting . 

In my eyes I was a hunter , me against my quarry . Nothing more  nothing less . 

I stand by my original comments . It just makes me laugh when people try to justify it. 

 

Edit it to say , I think your right about the regulation part , don’t think it hurt . With in reason . 

Edited January 27, 2018 by stevo

[panoma1]

To say you enjoying shooting "stuff" is one thing.........but to say you enjoy killing "stuff" is something else!.......Isn't it?.....Surely shooting isnt only about killing stuff?

The terminology we use is important! It's like using the word "Bloodsports" the emotive description coined by antis, In order to demonise shooting and other fieldsports..........it's use does us no favours!

Leave enjoying "killing stuff" to the nutter that gets a perverted pleasure from the act of killing, such as cutting the head off the neighbors cat!

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, stevo said:

Scully , I don’t and won’t justify myself to anyone , before I packed up shooting live quarry ( last year ) I shot because I enjoyed shooting , at no point over the 30 odd yrs that I shot did It ever feel like a sport / sporting . 

In my eyes I was a hunter , me against my quarry . Nothing more  nothing less . 

I stand by my original comments . It just makes me laugh when people try to justify it. 

Good for you. I think my opinion on here regarding killing live quarry as ‘sport’ is well documented, so we can agree on that. It is also a major ‘sticking point’ those on the LACS website like to produce as their ‘ace up the sleeve’, until you agree with them of course. ?

Try it, seriously. It’s a good while since I’ve been on. It isn’t a forum anywhere near as sophisticated as this and you can’t quote each other’s posts, which can make it laborious; and when they gang up on you it can become confusing, but the effort is well worth it. I even got banned for a short spell! ? 

Its our end of season driven syndicate dinner tonight; no doubt this topic will be much talked about. 

Off to put a bit of lippy on! ?

Edited January 27, 2018 by Scully

[Guest stevo]

3 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

To say you enjoying shooting "stuff" is one thing.........but to say you enjoy killing "stuff" is something else!.......Isn't it?.....Surely shooting isnt only about killing stuff?

The terminology we use is important! It's like using the word "Bloodsports" the emotive description coined by antis, In order to demonise shooting and other fieldsports..........it's use does us no favours!

Leave enjoying "killing stuff" to the nutter that gets a perverted pleasure from the act of killing, such as cutting the head off the neighbors cat!

Nobody is using the terminology your describing ? 

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good for you. I think my opinion on here regarding killing live quarry as ‘sport’ is well documented, so we can agree on that. It is also a major ‘sticking point’ those on the LACS website like to produce as their ‘ace up the sleeve’, until you agree with them of course. ?

Try it, seriously. It’s a good while since I’ve been on. It isn’t a forum anywhere near as sophisticated as this and you can’t quote each other’s posts, which can make it laborious; and when they gang up on you it can become confusing, but the effort is well worth it. I even got banned for a short spell! ? 

I recognise sometimes being vexatious and contrary can be a very fruitful tactic!

I was going to put LOL! After this comment but thought you probably wouldn't appreciate it! 

[panoma1]

4 minutes ago, stevo said:

Nobody is using the terminology your describing ? 

Don't fret! I wasn't actually referring to any posting in particular! otherwise I would have included the quote I was commenting on!

[old'un]

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

Good for you. I think my opinion on here regarding killing live quarry as ‘sport’ is well documented, so we can agree on that. It is also a major ‘sticking point’ those on the LACS website like to produce as their ‘ace up the sleeve’, until you agree with them of course. ?

Try it, seriously. It’s a good while since I’ve been on. It isn’t a forum anywhere near as sophisticated as this and you can’t quote each other’s posts, which can make it laborious; and when they gang up on you it can become confusing, but the effort is well worth it. I even got banned for a short spell! ? 

Its our end of season driven syndicate dinner tonight; no doubt this topic will be much talked about. 

Off to put a bit of lippy on! ?

Bloody hell Scully I bet you needed a new keyboard trying to keep up with the replies to your posts, must have been hundreds baying for your blood.

[panoma1]

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

This is the crux of the issue as I see it as well.

On some other debates Scully, in particular, has made some notable posts, in my opinion, where he gets off the fence and says that he shoots live game because he enjoys it.  Many PW contributors try to dress up shooting animals as some sort of selfless, noble and virtuous endeavour on their part Any particular PW members you are referring to?, after all they are protecting crops or promoting habitat or other wildlife conservation.

The blunt truth is that anybody that shoots an animal, whether they eat it or not, shoot stuff because they enjoy shooting stuff, take a look in the sporting pictures thread as evidence of this as shooters pose with the dead beasts, with the gun strategically set in frame, as some sort of icon of our skill and prowess.  If we just wanted to bang the gun and test our prowess with the gun we could boom at clays or targets for a load less money.

If within our own community we cannot be honest with ourselves about shooting, and maybe even consider some live shooting as a dirty little secret, Examples? then how can we possibly take a compelling argument to people who have never shot.  As an example look at every thread ever on PW about what constitutes a "sporting shot", the wafer thin tenuous strand of moral credibility we attribute to ourselves to justify killing one animal in one circumstance versus another. i.e. size 7.5 pellets is a bad pigeon kill, but size 6 is morally and ethically superior so therefor good pigeon kill, or shooting a pigeon on the ground is unsporting death, but shooting it screaming in at 60mph on a flight line at 50 yards is a fantastic sporting death. Well if you satisfies you? You stick to catching your fish in a barrel, I'll stick to plying my skill and knowledge in watercraft and presenting a lure to a migratory fish somewhere in a 100 mile stretch of river! It's better sport!

The unavoidable picture is that we shoot animals because we enjoy shooting animals.No you may shoot animals because you enjoy shooting animals! As for me I enjoy shooting and one of the biproducts of my shooting is the occasional dead animal or bird!  None of us need to hunt, we live in a time of surplus in the food supply chain (in this country at least) so we hunt because we can and because we enjoy it.  We justify that to ourselves for a multitude of reasons, to spare our fragile conscience, you may have a fragile conscience but mine I reckon is pretty robust! but ultimately it is simple, we enjoy shooting stuff.

No gun on any game shoot ever said "I really don't enjoy this killing stuff malarky, I am only doing it so I can eat".No probably not, but a few have probably said "I had a great day's shooting" but I bet many wouldn't say "I really enjoyed killing all those birds"

That is why people pay for big bag days or silly high pheasant days where banging off 200 cart's a drive is a measure of success, because it is good fun.

That is why shooting is such an easy target and why when arguments are  reduced to the fundamentals we cannot win any emotional debate.  We can of course win on economic and conservation debates, but we need to accept that first means being content to admit that yes we do enjoy shooting Agreed! and stop trying to hide away from that Agreed! because that is the only way we can move beyond the emotional.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by panoma1
ran out of battery on my ipad!

[islandgun]

 Ive been here before. being told to admit that I like killing things, well I dont, I shoot for several reasons and to watch a goose or rabbit breathing its last isn't one of them,  years ago I found myself living in this place and in a small way a meat producer (sheep, some of which i kill myself ).

Within minutes of my back door i can shoot rabbits and geese,  and as an avid meat eater i quickly equated a rabbit as a pie etc. I have studied Agriculture and don't like factory farming always believing that it was preferable to be a free range pheasant than a broiler hen.  so for me it became ethical to shoot a wild freely available resource, (note I am not without meat or the money to buy it). I dont feel the need to justify shooting to anyone but I am comfortable in the knowledge that the animals I shoot ends up on mine or someone else's table, without exception.  I really enjoy reloading. I am fortunate to own some nice guns. i love to sit (as this evening) with my dog, back to a wall, watching the days end with a beautiful backdrop as this is the only time of the day i truly unwind and ponder life, I didnt shoot at anything but would have if the geese had been in range. My bag this season is 5 geese and 1 duck. Rabbits are different and i often shoot as many as i can carry, none are wasted, 

 I don't believe Im alone with this reasoning, as im sure many shooters enjoy a potter around, taking a bird or two for the table and simply enjoying an afternoon outside. i also dont believe they have to admit to a liking for killing things either 

 

[Westley]

Maybe the way forward is to combine 'simulated' and live game all in the same day. Alternate drives of each, thus fulfilling the needs of those who want to shoot a case of cartridges in a day, sufficient birds for a brace apiece and a few for the shoot staff and no wastage at the end  !