Teague chokes

[matone]

Given Gunman`s vast experience in barrels ,I know who I`d listen to.

[welshwarrior]

23 hours ago, motty said:

Not again! Why do you say this?

Do you mean all steel is fine through tighter chokes?

[timps]

According to CIP regulations Standard steel shot is ok to use through any choke although it is generally believed tighter than 1/2 blows the patterns so of no benefit. Standard steel has a maximum shot size of 3.25 mm. 

HP steel can only be used in steel proofed guns with the Fleur de Lys proof mark, again any choke can be used for shot up to 4 mm. 

Where the steel shot diameter of HP steel exceeds 4 mm BB or larger then you can only use 1/2 choke. 

For old lightweight game guns depending on who you ask CIP or British Proof Authorities it’s a maximum of 1/2 or a 1/4. 

Those are the regulations as to benefits or damage due to bulging etc that’s a whole other discussion.

Edited February 4, 2018 by timps

[motty]

2 hours ago, matone said:

Given Gunman`s vast experience in barrels ,I know who I`d listen to.

Well, he has experience, so that must make him right. Right?

[lancer425]

Not read up much on dominative steel choke guidelines but i think the no tighter than half choke advice stemmed from sami not CIP regs.

I shot it through full and extra full right from the off no issues at all, many a good full choke gun lost its choke through miss information surrounding steel.

Only other week i heard about a AYA 10 bore but although mint it had on inspection had most of its choke taken out purportedly for steel.

.

[lancer425]

8 minutes ago, motty said:

Well, he has experience, so that must make him right. Right?

No it just means his experience does not encompass steel shot usage, if it did he would know full choke is fine for steel.  .

[motty]

These are my experiences and thoughts on steel shot and guns.

 

I use steel through three tens. None of these are steel proofed. Two of these are fixed choke at at least full. I use large steel (4- 4.5mm) through these. I personally think that 10s with the choke bored out have been ruined.

My Browning gold 10 is used with a .705 Terror choke (so fairly tight) with 46 grams of 5mm shot (pretty big).

The 12s I use are not all steel proofed. I also use these with extra full extended chokes with as big steel shot as I fancy. My Xtrema is used with 4mm steel through a .655 Terror choke. I don't believe that tight chokes blows patterns with steel, per se, but it can.

As far as I am aware, my use of tight chokes and large steel ( as well as my choosing to ignore the advice about the all important steel proofing) has not damaged me or my guns in anyway.

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, motty said:

These are my experiences and thoughts on steel shot and guns.

 

I use steel through three tens. None of these are steel proofed. Two of these are fixed choke at at least full. I use large steel (4- 4.5mm) through these. I personally think that 10s with the choke bored out have been ruined.

My Browning gold 10 is used with a .705 Terror choke (so fairly tight) with 46 grams of 5mm shot (pretty big).

The 12s I use are not all steel proofed. I also use these with extra full extended chokes with as big steel shot as I fancy. My Xtrema is used with 4mm steel through a .655 Terror choke. I don't believe that tight chokes blows patterns with steel, per se, but it can.

As far as I am aware, my use of tight chokes and large steel ( as well as my choosing to ignore the advice about the all important steel proofing) has not damaged me or my guns in anyway.

I  agree with all you say, guns like that Old AYA10 are just wasted with the choke out and only practical way to do anything use full in my opinion with them  is multi choke conversion with all the added expense involved.  And tight chokes not patterning, i am looking at going tighter than .705 with a jebs high voltage in my gold seem the results they give and i want some of that for next season.

[timps]

The CIP have done extensive testing which encompasses all makes of guns and they have to pander to the worst-case scenario regarding build quality,  design and age, they then have to add a safety margin. They also accept shooting steel shot against their regulations wouldn’t necessarily damaged a gun but CIP would maintain that the risk of it being so is increased.

Based on the above just because plenty on PW do it and its fine for them doesn’t mean that all makes and type of guns new and old will be ok, also depending on whose cartridges you use that could also make a difference.

There is an increased risk of damage going against the regulations, as long as people are aware what the regulations are and are ok with the increased risk in ignoring them then that’s their call, but its only fair to point out the increased risks.   

Regarding 10 Gauge there isn't any CIP regulations regarding steel so no guidelines.

[lancer425]

12 minutes ago, timps said:

 

Regarding 10 Gauge there isn't any CIP regulations regarding steel so no guidelines.

Could be you are right, and not trying to be a clever devil here but i think cip did not that long ago give guidelines for 10ga guns, i know sami did a good wile but i thought  i heard The CIP included tens now.

[JohnfromUK]

39 minutes ago, timps said:

The CIP have done extensive testing which encompasses all makes of guns and they have to pander to the worst-case scenario regarding build quality,  design and age, they then have to add a safety margin. They also accept shooting steel shot against their regulations wouldn’t necessarily damaged a gun but CIP would maintain that the risk of it being so is increased.

Based on the above just because plenty on PW do it and its fine for them doesn’t mean that all makes and type of guns new and old will be ok, also depending on whose cartridges you use that could also make a difference.

There is an increased risk of damage going against the regulations, as long as people are aware what the regulations are and are ok with the increased risk in ignoring them then that’s their call, but its only fair to point out the increased risks.

This sums it up well for me, BUT for those admittedly rare instances where something goes wrong - consider what insurance may apply.  In the event that CIP and/or manufacturers advice has not been followed, the insurance may be either reduced or invalidated.  In the event that 'rules/regulations' have been broken, insurance is likely to be invalid.  That is the way insurance operates.

[Scully]

This is my experience with HP steel shot ( namely Gamebore 36gram loads ) through non-steel proofed guns. 

I haven’t used anything up to the same size and restrictions as Motty ( only because I’ve never felt the need ) but I certainly wouldn’t , and don’t, shy away from steel shot. 

I have used the above cartridges in an old 101 Diamond Grade I owned, choked at 1/4 and 1/2, and through a Browning 2000 self loader choked at 3/4, and my Winchester 1500 XTR choked at full. I don’t own any steel shot proofed guns. It’s never been an issue. 

[Gunman]

You can use steel shot in any gun with any choke .You can use it in a black powder gun if you want .Personally I dont care any  if you want to use 2&3/4 magnum steel in your 100 year old 2&1/2" hammer gun. 

What you do with your property is up to you and no one else .

What I do care about is that when  giving advice in general, on an open forum,  should be erring on the side of caution . I may be out of date on one or two points or my opinions may seem to some to be some what old hat , but I would rather that than say things that could be misleading .

My personal opinion about chokes and have argued this with the Proof Master in the early days of steel shot being introduced is that , the chokes should be bored with a continuous  taper rather than a short tapering cone and a long choke . This in my opinion would largely solve the problem . But as we are talking of guns in general then I will stick to my original comments .

 

I am talking about proper chokes , not screw in chokes . I have seem many many multi choked barrels and chokes  damaged by with lead shot cartridges , If using steel shot the chances of this must be increased  .You only need one badly loaded cartridge to start a problem and unfortunately steel is a lot less forgiving .The very nature of a multi choke especially if fitted "after market" has the potential for failure due to weakening from prolonged use and  possibility of fouling .

Edited February 4, 2018 by Gunman

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Gunman said:

You can use steel shot in any gun with any choke .You can use it in a black powder gun if you want .Personally I dont care any  if you want to use 2&3/4 magnum steel in your 100 year old 2&1/2" hammer gun. 

What you do with your property is up to you and no one else .

What I do care about is that when  giving advice in general, on an open forum,  should be erring on the side of caution . I may be out of date on one or two points or my opinions may seem to some to be some what old hat , but I would rather that than say things that could be misleading .

My personal opinion about chokes and have argued this with the Proof Master in the early days of steel shot being introduced is that , the chokes should be bored with a continuous  taper rather than a short tapering cone and a long choke . This in my opinion would largely solve the problem . But as we are talking of guns in general then I will stick to my original comments .

 

I am talking about proper chokes , not screw in chokes . I have seem many many multi choked barrels and chokes  damaged by with lead shot cartridges , If using steel shot the chances of this must be increased  .You only need one badly loaded cartridge to start a problem and unfortunately steel is a lot less forgiving .The very nature of a multi choke especially if fitted "after market" has the potential for failure due to weakening from prolonged use and  possibility of fouling .

As far as I'm concerned its the ' Do not use steel though any choke greater than half ' which narks. It isn't as definitive as that and you didn't state it was your opinion and open to debate, but stated it as fact, and it is to be fair contrary to what you've just stated at the top of your post above. 

Only the Browning referred to in my post was fixed choke, and the chokes in the other guns are a mixture of aftermarket Teagues and Winchokes. 

It isn't surprising confusion reigns when there is so much baloney talked by those supposedly in the know; ( and I don't include you in this ) especially the British proof house which came about through a financial incentive to bolster and save the British Gun Trade from an influx of cheap foreign imports; an incentive which still applies today. 

Guidance is just that;  it isn't written in stone. I find the experience of others is just as valid, if not more so.