Florida School Shooting

[Matty89]

https://news.sky.com/story/twenty-hurt-in-shooting-at-florida-school-11250721

 

[Brad93]

18 school shootings in the past year. 

 

Very sad and very disturbing

[Konnie]

Very sad, but the norm in the country that does not want to change.

AR15 assault rifle used for the purpose that it was designed for, taking human lives, is it so hard to see the problem over there.

But again very sad for those involved.

[Benthejockey]

Konnie you can’t feasibly blame the gun for killing people. I’ve got a load of them in my gun cabinet and I don’t lose any sleep thinking they might kill me and it would be the same even if I had a machine gun under the stairs.

What America does need to change is their ability to catch people with mental health issues. Which they are very poor at doing. Guns are inanimate and doesn’t matter if they’re capable of firing a million bullets a minute or one or if they’ve got a 50inch barrel or a 3inch barrel they are all only as dangerous as the person pointing them. Any normal person is quite capable of handling any gun and not killing a school full of children. It’s when mentally ill people get their hands on any sort of weapon that things go wrong quickly! And that weapon could be a broken bottle, a car, a petrol bomb, even a pencil can become a good stabbing weapon. The ability to fire a large amount of bullets in a short time has increased this persons spree but if his issues had been spotted and diagnosed he could have been dealt with appropriately before he could harm anyone. Mentally sound people don’t go on killing sprees. 

[Walker570]

Plus 1 with you Ben.  Please note that in this country which is one third the size of TEXAS, the high profile shootings that have occured have been by legal owners, checked and passed by the police to hold the guns they used.  Illegal use of guns in the UK is as high as many other countries. Birmingham even planned to put up detectors so they could pin point a gun going off, it was happening so often.   I agree eighteen shootings is too many, but bear in mind there are over 50 States in the US almost all of them as big as the UK. 

Like this country the one problem they do have in the USA is liberals always pushing for not using the death penalty.   Yes some States do have it, but it can take 10 or 15yrs of arguing before the deed is done.  

In some ways this problem is linked to the 'born evil' thread.  Parental responsibility.

[notsosureshot]

Every time there is a terrible tragedy like this, the same calls for gun controls are made and the same calls are rejected.

Personally I can't see how banning particular types of weapon (AR15 pattern rifles) would really help, they'd have to go a lot further.  If you ban semi automatic rifles, these maniacs will use semi automatic shotguns, if you ban those, they will use semi-automatic pistols.  So then you're left with revolvers with a speedloader.  So you'd have to ban those too.  A maniac would just use multiple revolvers.

Then you're at the point where you've banned all semi automatic long arms and all pistols, not too dissimilar to the UK.  There is absolutely no way on the planet that voters in the USA would agree to a that, so it's an almost pointless debate.  Even the most ardent democrat would never dream of getting legislation like that passed because half of their own party would reject it.

The focus really does need to be on mental health and encouraging people to report (with evidence) those that they feel may be a significant risk.  Society needs to police itself to an extent and the education supporting that needs to start at a very young age.  It won't stop a determined "lone wolf" type, but it would stop many of these disturbed kids, who crave notoriety on social media and provide the evidence of their intent long before they carry out the crime. 

The news is saying that his former classmates knew of his proclivities.  This is a common theme, yet there never seems to be any progress made on utilising available information before the fact.

People calling for gun control in the USA are wasting valuable time and resources.  It's time all sides of the debate rallied together and tackled the underlying causes.  Whilst they bicker, people are dying.

My sympathies to the family and friends of those affected by these horrific events.

[Breastman]

Strange how most of these types of shootings, in not all happen in 'gun free zones' and not gun trade fairs, shooting ranges etc isn't it? Almost as if there's a link....

If banning things worked handguns would not be the #1 firearm type* used in the UK for both gun crime and gun murder (according to the Office of National Statistics), and drugs such as cocaine, MDMA, heroin etc wouldn't be freely available in every city, town and village. But yes, lets blame the inanimate objects murderers use to commit their atrocities and not just the murderer themselves

There also seems to be some severe goldfish memories going on to forget the truck and knife attacks in the last 3 years....

 

*Actual firearm and not 'air weapon'

[rimmie]

?

[rimfire4969]

I’m in Florida at the moment. As you can imagine all the local news is filled with this horrific attack. Lots of anti and pro gun people on tv. 

AR15, multiple magazines. His mum died in November and dad died a few years ago. He was expelled from the school last year but was attending a different one. He apparently was seen arguing with the boyfriend of his ex before the shooting. There seems to of been many red flags about this guys mental health that have not been picked up.

My thoughts go to all those families affected. 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, notsosureshot said:

Every time there is a terrible tragedy like this, the same calls for gun controls are made and the same calls are rejected.

Personally I can't see how banning particular types of weapon (AR15 pattern rifles) would really help, they'd have to go a lot further.  If you ban semi automatic rifles, these maniacs will use semi automatic shotguns, if you ban those, they will use semi-automatic pistols.  So then you're left with revolvers with a speedloader.  So you'd have to ban those too.  A maniac would just use multiple revolvers.

Then you're at the point where you've banned all semi automatic long arms and all pistols, not too dissimilar to the UK.  There is absolutely no way on the planet that voters in the USA would agree to a that, so it's an almost pointless debate.  Even the most ardent democrat would never dream of getting legislation like that passed because half of their own party would reject it.

The focus really does need to be on mental health and encouraging people to report (with evidence) those that they feel may be a significant risk.  Society needs to police itself to an extent and the education supporting that needs to start at a very young age.  It won't stop a determined "lone wolf" type, but it would stop many of these disturbed kids, who crave notoriety on social media and provide the evidence of their intent long before they carry out the crime. 

The news is saying that his former classmates knew of his proclivities.  This is a common theme, yet there never seems to be any progress made on utilising available information before the fact.

People calling for gun control in the USA are wasting valuable time and resources.  It's time all sides of the debate rallied together and tackled the underlying causes.  Whilst they bicker, people are dying.

My sympathies to the family and friends of those affected by these horrific events.

Great  post 

[Danger-Mouse]

9 hours ago, notsosureshot said:

Every time there is a terrible tragedy like this, the same calls for gun controls are made and the same calls are rejected.

Personally I can't see how banning particular types of weapon (AR15 pattern rifles) would really help, they'd have to go a lot further.  If you ban semi automatic rifles, these maniacs will use semi automatic shotguns, if you ban those, they will use semi-automatic pistols.  So then you're left with revolvers with a speedloader.  So you'd have to ban those too.  A maniac would just use multiple revolvers.

Then you're at the point where you've banned all semi automatic long arms and all pistols, not too dissimilar to the UK.  There is absolutely no way on the planet that voters in the USA would agree to a that, so it's an almost pointless debate.  Even the most ardent democrat would never dream of getting legislation like that passed because half of their own party would reject it.

The focus really does need to be on mental health and encouraging people to report (with evidence) those that they feel may be a significant risk.  Society needs to police itself to an extent and the education supporting that needs to start at a very young age.  It won't stop a determined "lone wolf" type, but it would stop many of these disturbed kids, who crave notoriety on social media and provide the evidence of their intent long before they carry out the crime. 

The news is saying that his former classmates knew of his proclivities.  This is a common theme, yet there never seems to be any progress made on utilising available information before the fact.

People calling for gun control in the USA are wasting valuable time and resources.  It's time all sides of the debate rallied together and tackled the underlying causes.  Whilst they bicker, people are dying.

My sympathies to the family and friends of those affected by these horrific events.

Good post.

There is clearly a problem in the US that extends beyond their laws on gun control. True they own considerably more guns than any other nation, almost 1 per person according to some estimates. However there are other countries with very high levels of gun ownership such as Serbia ( estimated 75 guns per 100 people), those with lower but still significant levels of gun ownership such as Norway, France and Canada (all estimated at around 30 guns per 100 people) and yet we do not see these kinds of mass shootings happening in any of these countries. Certainly not with the monotonous regularity they occur in the US anyway.

To paraphrase the Bard, "Something is clearly rotten in the state of Demark". The question that needs answering and the problem that needs addressing is why in the states are these mass shootings happening? What is the root cause of these events? It can't just be mental health. Every country has it's share of pschopaths, depressives and any other malaise you want to blame and yet we don't see their kids shooting up schools. Ease of access to firearms is certainly a contributing factor, but clearly there is something else going on, and unfortunately it doesn't seem to be something that is easily quantifiable.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Reading through some of the news reports about this latest mass school killing in America, it appears that his behaviour had been reported and that he had been excluded from being on the premises with a back-pack. Somewhere along the line several people or agency's missed the warnings.

Such a great shame. As stated above this is apparently the 18th school shooting so far this year!

Will America ever change?

[bluesj]

I'm in no way an expert and do not know what if any licensing systems the other countries above have, but I would guess that if someone was after getting a license for a gun and check were done a youngster that had been expelled from school would probably not get one.

I think it is more the lack of some sort of licensing system and check that are the cause of the us problems along with their attitude to fire arms. you only have to watch a few of the clips on youtube to see they have a very different view of gun safety than we do. don't think they have ever heard the term safe back stop or securing a gun. When I was a kid I would get a ####ing if I fired my spud gun without knowing what was behind the target or if I left in with caps in it!

[oowee]

26 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Reading through some of the news reports about this latest mass school killing in America, it appears that his behaviour had been reported and that he had been excluded from being on the premises with a back-pack. Somewhere along the line several people or agency's missed the warnings.

Such a great shame. As stated above this is apparently the 18th school shooting so far this year!

Will America ever change?

18 shootings in 45 days thats one every 2 1/2 days  and still no action. 

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, oowee said:

18 shootings in 45 days thats one every 2 1/2 days  and still no action. 

Bearing in mind there is nothing to stop another school shooting similar to that of Dunblane from happening in the UK on any given day, what actions do you suggest the Americans should take?

[Benthejockey]

The people with mental instabilities are being failed by the system in America. Either the system doesn’t work, doesn’t care or is focused on foreign threats so far removed from reality that a serious domestic threat can be over looked. Scully is correct there is nothing to prevent this sort of even occurring in our schools and colleges. But they are picked up by the system and helped or at least monitored. It would be naïve to think that it is because of our archaic and restrictive firearms regulations that we don’t have more atrocities, in simple terms if you were a weird angsty teenager with no friends and an axe to grind it would not be difficult to set off your school fire alarm and wield a machete or throw petrol bombs at the congregated students or even make a rucksack full of crude pipe bombs and make yourself word famous. These mass killings have nothing to do with guns and everything to do with inadequate social care for the loony toons out there. 

[catchthepigeonmutley]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Will America ever change?

Unfortunately not.

[Vince Green]

they reap what they sow. Another total fruitcake with an AR15, probably a 30 round magazine. Its not rocket science 

[Zapp]

Simply awful.  I've been to the US many times with work and have a lot of friends there.  I cant imagine what it must be like having school age children somewhere mass school shootings are so prevalent.

[P.Shuter]

We here in the UK cannot begin to comprehend the mindset of of the average American who has such easy access to guns and on paper it’s great but for sure it is that access which can be used by anyone whomsoever, that  has allowed the likes of Nicholas Cruz to obtain the means to kill, maim and create havoc.

Americans will never ever be able to prevent similar atrocities as long as they have the second ammendment and guns and ammo are readily available for the opportunist nutter.

[notsosureshot]

2 hours ago, P.Shuter said:

We here in the UK cannot begin to comprehend the mindset of of the average American who has such easy access to guns and on paper it’s great but for sure it is that access which can be used by anyone whomsoever, that  has allowed the likes of Nicholas Cruz to obtain the means to kill, maim and create havoc.

Americans will never ever be able to prevent similar atrocities as long as they have the second ammendment and guns and ammo are readily available for the opportunist nutter.

To try and help explain the mindset, I personally think that's probably because we have never had our country occupied by a hostile external power*, at least not in relatively recent history.  Had Nazi Germany succeed in actually taking over our country and our normal citizens had subsequently won it back by force of arms, we may feel differently as a society.  Your average American firearm owner isn't "ill" or twisted as some suggest.  They are normal law abiding people who happen to have a history different to our own and as such have the right to own a firearm ingrained as deeply in their legal rights, as their right to vote.  I'd postulate that the vast majority of US citizens also hold those rights in equal regard, regardless of political leanings.

This Cruz guy was apparently mentally ill yet was allowed to legally own firearms.  That's the real issue and he would have fallen outside of the scope of the background checks that are performed when US citizens purchase firearms at retail, in say, Walmart.  There are more relaxed rules for certain types of transaction (intra state and gun shows) which I gather are being looked at, but I don't think any of the proposals would have picked this up.

The issue is that you can't just say "hey, this guy is mentally ill" at random and start to remove their constitutional rights.  There is a process, just as there is in the UK, where you can't have someone randomly deemed to be "not of sound mind".  Even here, until someone does something extremely serious, often little can be done to restrict their legal freedoms.  It's very hard to legislate for.

When it comes to US gun control, I do have a bit of first hand personal experience.  I was shopping one day, I forget which store but a big grocery outlet.  My friend (a US citizen) and I were browsing the pistol cabinet, which in the USA tends to form the sales counter of the firearm department.  With the salesman in attendance, we were chatting about various models between ourselves and handled a few.  My friend decided to expand his collection with a 1911 pattern pistol which took his fancy.  The salesman initially flat out refused to sell to him.  He explained that as we'd been discussing the item and I too had handled it, he felt that the US citizen may be purchasing on my behalf and on account of my accent he felt I may be a prohibited alien.  Keeping in mind this was a relatively small rural Texan town where a Brit is considered a rarity.  Of course we sorted it out in the end, but still, it's not that your average joe involved in firearms doesn't care.  It's their citizens being murdered, I'd say they care more than us over here in blighty.  I admit this is a microscopic sample size, but why wouldn't the average citizen care, it makes absolute sense that they do.

Personally, I think some kind of tiered system would be appropriate for the assessment of their firearms licences, each level of which, if failed, triggers an elevated level of background checks before purchase is allowed.  In other words, for example if someone has a "police report" for killing the neighbours cat but were not convicted, the circumstances should be explored and the "balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" should be used in judgement for this purpose.  To simplify it, if that person reversed over said cat accidentally, they would be allowed to purchase a firearm, but if there was a suspicion or suggestion from law enforcement that they had set out to deliberately harm said animal, the test would fail and the applicant would become prohibited pending further enquiries to establish the exact circumstances.  There are probably a million issues with this idea and I've no idea if it could be made to be fair and constitutional.

Sorry if my post is a bit long.  I have a lot of friends in the USA, I've spent a lot of time there, including a quite a lot of hunting and shooting and every single time I see a news report of another mass shooting, I get a lump in my throat.  Perhaps posting here is futile and my ramblings are of interest to no one, but I figure that discussion can't ever really be a bad thing.

 

*Romans etc do not count as they did not have firearms!

[Hamster]

10 hours ago, Scully said:

Bearing in mind there is nothing to stop another school shooting similar to that of Dunblane from happening in the UK on any given day, what actions do you suggest the Americans should take?

What ? Yes there is, we have had two major mass shootings in recent history involving multiple fatalities and on each occasion certain arms used have been banned and certifications made even tighter in order to make the next one much harder. ONE of the reason mass shootings are much more frequent in the US is that weapons are so easily available. 

[Vince Green]

I have posted on here recently about my experience of deer hunting season in upstate New York . Although with no criminal intent, there are approx. 1000 hunter related accidental shootings every year. Not all of those are fatal fortunately but many are life changing.

Again this peculiar mindset that its OK for anyone to casually buy a .30-06 or a .270 and simply park their car and wander off into the woods and start shooting. Absolutely no understanding of ballistics, backstops or even how to sight their rifle in.

In so many ways they are so  law abiding, much more religious and straight laced than here and yet on this matter they really cannot see it

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Hamster said:

What ? Yes there is, we have had two major mass shootings in recent history involving multiple fatalities and on each occasion certain arms used have been banned and certifications made even tighter in order to make the next one much harder. ONE of the reason mass shootings are much more frequent in the US is that weapons are so easily available. 

I think you are missing Scullys point.
A person who ( being not of sound mind )wishes to do a mass shooting in the UK would likely acquire an illegal firearm.
The banning of pistols and semi auto centerfires, hasnt stopped murders using such weapons.
Ill admit , the procedures of gaining firearms licences has been tightened up since Hungerford and Dunblane, but you must know that both of those incidents,and others since using legally held guns, the perps should not have had them anyway.
 

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Hamster said:

What ? Yes there is, we have had two major mass shootings in recent history involving multiple fatalities and on each occasion certain arms used have been banned and certifications made even tighter in order to make the next one much harder. ONE of the reason mass shootings are much more frequent in the US is that weapons are so easily available. 

Despite what you say, there is still nothing to stop anyone from walking into a UK school with a legally held handgun and semi automatic rifle and running amok.

The English handgun ban had nothing to do with handguns and everything to do with politics.

You could license or even ban all firearms in the USA tomorrow and it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference.