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6 hours ago, Hamster said:

It has worked here as it has in Australia where following a couple of atrocities certain guns were banned and licencing tightened up, we have not had a repetition of Hungerford or Dunblane and if and when we do the numbers of such rampages are well below that of America. No good confusing crime in general with mass killings. 

That could of being the case even if there was no ban could it not.  PS What about the Cumbria Shootings was that not what would be descried as a mass shooting. ?

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39 minutes ago, ordnance said:

That could have been the case even if there was no ban could it not.  PS What about the Cumbria Shootings was that not what would be descried as a mass shooting. ?

Interesting theory. :|:) I mean it is genuinely an interesting theory, yes I suppose it is possible that we simply haven't had another mass killing which still leaves the US situation unanswered. 

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11 hours ago, Hamster said:

On the contrary I think it is you who has missed the point. We here in the UK or indeed much if not all of Europe do not have anywhere near the incidents and sheer number of mass shootings and NO it is not possible for someone to get hold of illegal weapons as easily as it is clearly possible to get hold of legal ones over in the US. One of the reasons we thankfully don't have the same problem (numerically at least) is our sane gun laws. 

I’m not suggesting another UK shooting massacre would be carried out with illegally held firearms. Hungerford, Dunblane and the Cumbrian shootings were all carried out with legally held firearms; there are still many thousands of legally held handguns and self loading rifles in circulation. 

Given that this is a fact, I’m intrigued to know how you would prevent another USA school shooting, or even implement a licensing system.

This is a cold and possibly inappropriate question to be asked at this time, but I can ask it because I’m not emotionally involved, but I’d be interested to know how many parents of those children killed, own firearms, and how many would now be willing to surrender theirs as a result. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not suggesting another UK shooting massacre would be carried out with illegally held firearms. Hungerford, Dunblane and the Cumbrian shootings were all carried out with legally held firearms; there are still many thousands of legally held handguns and self loading rifles in circulation. 

Given that this is a fact, I’m intrigued to know how you would prevent another USA school shooting, or even implement a licensing system.

This is a cold and possibly inappropriate question to be asked at this time, but I can ask it because I’m not emotionally involved, but I’d be interested to know how many parents of those children killed, own firearms, and how many would now be willing to surrender theirs as a result. 

 

I (along with many) simply don't believe you can fix the US mass shooting and homicide problem by banning certain guns tomorrow, I never have done and I believe I have said words to that effect before. Guns alone aren't the problem (they are though very clearly an enabler of the offenders thought process).

I do believe that here they have made a difference, I believe that taking high capacity destructive weapons such as Kalashnikov and semi automatic rifles and hand guns out of general circulation together with stringent screening of certificate holders and keeping an eye on suspicious and rousing clues as to mental stability of individuals who may be susceptible to such crimes has at least potentially prevented recurrences of events such as Hungerford, in short I believe that had we done NOTHING and simply bought the cheap one liners such as : guns don't kill people, people kill people :rolleyes: we would have had one or three more than we have had the misfortune to experience.

As for the US I think they're too far gone, theirs isn't going to be fixed by mechanical means alone (not pretending ours can totally be either). I think their problem is a huge melting pot of factors,  a culture built on genocide, casually unrepentant (almost unaware) of any of its dark past who are brought up on the idea of American exceptionalism, who have in modern history supported and funded expansionist, apartheid regimes who by even a microscopically decent moral measure would be considered abhorrent, whose nation has been at war for 90%+ of its existence, who to this day mistreats its black populations, whose addiction to war knows no bounds, who idolises soulless snipers who kill innocent women and children (and men) who had nothing to do with 911 as hero's, who permits the shooting of someone on their lawn as self defence, whose police can execute people for traffic violations (and get away with it), who considers the poor and needy as lazy vermin, whose place in the world is in rapid decline, whose once proud manufacturing is a former shadow of its glorious past, whose healthcare is the most expensive in the world and inaccessible by millions of its citizens, whose poverty levels are unparalleled in the modern world, whose whose whose, you get the picture.  Americans live in this high octane winner takes all mindset which appears to view the weak as a disease. The cumulative affect of this toxic mix leads to human lives being viewed with less and less dignity, millions can still cope thankfully, thousands apparently find it difficult, hundreds (who snap) is what it takes to make mass killings and resort to gun violence an every day reality. 

I don't pretend to know the exact answers but I believe American violence abroad begets American violence at home. 

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5 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I (along with many) simply don't believe you can fix the US mass shooting and homicide problem by banning certain guns tomorrow, I never have done and I believe I have said words to that effect before. Guns alone aren't the problem (they are though very clearly an enabler of the offenders thought process).

I do believe that here they have made a difference, I believe that taking high capacity destructive weapons such as Kalashnikov and semi automatic rifles and hand guns out of general circulation together with stringent screening of certificate holders and keeping an eye on suspicious and rousing clues as to mental stability of individuals who may be susceptible to such crimes has at least potentially prevented recurrences of events such as Hungerford, in short I believe that had we done NOTHING and simply bought the cheap one liners such as : guns don't kill people, people kill people :rolleyes: we would have had one or three more than we have had the misfortune to experience.

As for the US I think they're too far gone, theirs isn't going to be fixed by mechanical means alone (not pretending ours can totally be either). I think their problem is a huge melting pot of factors,  a culture built on genocide, casually unrepentant (almost unaware) of any of its dark past who are brought up on the idea of American exceptionalism, who have in modern history supported and funded expansionist, apartheid regimes who by even a microscopically decent moral measure would be considered abhorrent, whose nation has been at war for 90%+ of its existence, who to this day mistreats its black populations, whose addiction to war knows no bounds, who idolises soulless snipers who kill innocent women and children (and men) who had nothing to do with 911 as hero's, who permits the shooting of someone on their lawn as self defence, whose police can execute people for traffic violations (and get away with it), who considers the poor and needy as lazy vermin, whose place in the world is in rapid decline, whose once proud manufacturing is a former shadow of its glorious past, whose healthcare is the most expensive in the world and inaccessible by millions of its citizens, whose poverty levels are unparalleled in the modern world, whose whose whose, you get the picture.  Americans live in this high octane winner takes all mindset which appears to view the weak as a disease. The cumulative affect of this toxic mix leads to human lives being viewed with less and less dignity, millions can still cope thankfully, thousands apparently find it difficult, hundreds (who snap) is what it takes to make mass killings and resort to gun violence an every day reality. 

I don't pretend to know the exact answers but I believe American violence abroad begets American violence at home. 

Can we take it that you wont be applying for US citizenship any time soon?

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First off all my heart goes out to the familys off the people murdered but i think the problem is that the AR is very popular in the USA And a lot of these shootings by the shooters they use the AR Any gun can kill and i think USA Needs to look at assault rifles as maybe tighter controls for purchasing a AR or any assault rifle  But with the NRA powerfull membership base i cant see this happening

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4 hours ago, Hamster said:

I (along with many) simply don't believe you can fix the US mass shooting and homicide problem by banning certain guns tomorrow, I never have done and I believe I have said words to that effect before. Guns alone aren't the problem (they are though very clearly an enabler of the offenders thought process).

I do believe that here they have made a difference, I believe that taking high capacity destructive weapons such as Kalashnikov and semi automatic rifles and hand guns out of general circulation together with stringent screening of certificate holders and keeping an eye on suspicious and rousing clues as to mental stability of individuals who may be susceptible to such crimes has at least potentially prevented recurrences of events such as Hungerford, in short I believe that had we done NOTHING and simply bought the cheap one liners such as : guns don't kill people, people kill people :rolleyes: we would have had one or three more than we have had the misfortune to experience.

As for the US I think they're too far gone, theirs isn't going to be fixed by mechanical means alone (not pretending ours can totally be either). I think their problem is a huge melting pot of factors,  a culture built on genocide, casually unrepentant (almost unaware) of any of its dark past who are brought up on the idea of American exceptionalism, who have in modern history supported and funded expansionist, apartheid regimes who by even a microscopically decent moral measure would be considered abhorrent, whose nation has been at war for 90%+ of its existence, who to this day mistreats its black populations, whose addiction to war knows no bounds, who idolises soulless snipers who kill innocent women and children (and men) who had nothing to do with 911 as hero's, who permits the shooting of someone on their lawn as self defence, whose police can execute people for traffic violations (and get away with it), who considers the poor and needy as lazy vermin, whose place in the world is in rapid decline, whose once proud manufacturing is a former shadow of its glorious past, whose healthcare is the most expensive in the world and inaccessible by millions of its citizens, whose poverty levels are unparalleled in the modern world, whose whose whose, you get the picture.  Americans live in this high octane winner takes all mindset which appears to view the weak as a disease. The cumulative affect of this toxic mix leads to human lives being viewed with less and less dignity, millions can still cope thankfully, thousands apparently find it difficult, hundreds (who snap) is what it takes to make mass killings and resort to gun violence an every day reality. 

I don't pretend to know the exact answers but I believe American violence abroad begets American violence at home. 

Wow, thats a bit harsh….. tarring a whole race with one brush:sad1:

However, I do agree with you on this one:

What ? Yes there is, we have had two major mass shootings in recent history involving multiple fatalities and on each occasion certain arms used have been banned and certifications made even tighter in order to make the next one much harder. ONE of the reason mass shootings are much more frequent in the US is that weapons are so easily available. 

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I’m a simple person and I certainly don’t have the answers but my view is this.   The second amendment was formed at the birth of a nation when guns were I believe single shot and took a time to reload.   Move on in time when really a country should have matured in terms of lawlessness.  So now they can have assault weapons that spew out multiple shots to “defend” themselves.  Can someone please explain the need for such types of guns - are they used to shoot game or clays?  NO.   Balance is required, they need as a nation to realise that they can’t have everything, take out of the equation guns for which the everyday person really shouldn’t have a need for.  It took him 7minutes or so to end the lives of those people - 7 minutes!  It won’t solve the problem but it might mitigate it.  Tighten up their licensing and checking system is a definite step in the right direction.   Will it solve the problem - No - but it might mitigate it.  Mental health needs to be addressed yes most definitely but that goes for a lot of countries around the world but if you have a more stringent approach to gun ownership you may actually stop a few incidents from actually occurring.   

 

Personally I think there will be change, not now and perhaps not in my lifetime but eventually the younger generations will move for change.  

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2 hours ago, KB1 said:

Wow, thats a bit harsh….. tarring a whole race with one brush:sad1:

However, I do agree with you on this one:

What ? Yes there is, we have had two major mass shootings in recent history involving multiple fatalities and on each occasion certain arms used have been banned and certifications made even tighter in order to make the next one much harder. ONE of the reason mass shootings are much more frequent in the US is that weapons are so easily available. 

The USA isn't one race so no tarring going on at all particularly since every point I have raised, however obscure, can be debated and proved to be accurate. Sadly I have left out far too many other telling and important points not least of which centres around religion for instance where they have even managed to lie to themselves about their own God. Isa, pronounced eesaa was a brown man born in the middle east and if he literally existed which is not 110% certain, would have looked much like me and probably been as short in stature, yet we have come to recognise him as a white skinned light brown or blond haired man called Jesus, his followers and disciples too have all grown Western friendly names, unfriendly Ya-ghoob has morphed into Jacob, Yousef is Joseph etc, all of this to hide the reality that seems unpalatable somehow ! The middle east and its people have instead been demonised and misrepresented on purpose in order to make hate and wars easier to sell. It seems not to matter whether the event took place in ancient history or within living memory, the US (and the West it has to be said) contorts the truth, they tell us they all but won WW2 remember. My point is that all of this lying and negativity eventually seeps into peoples consciousness. The reality is that we simply don't know but there are clearly hundreds of little factors involved, who knows there may even be such a thing as a Cosmic karma mechanism that tries to correct wrongs, the Galaxy is unendingly huge, we just don't know. 

42 minutes ago, Sian said:

I’m a simple person and I certainly don’t have the answers but my view is this.   The second amendment was formed at the birth of a nation when guns were I believe single shot and took a time to reload.   Move on in time when really a country should have matured in terms of lawlessness.  So now they can have assault weapons that spew out multiple shots to “defend” themselves.  Can someone please explain the need for such types of guns - are they used to shoot game or clays?  NO.   Balance is required, they need as a nation to realise that they can’t have everything, take out of the equation guns for which the everyday person really shouldn’t have a need for.  It took him 7minutes or so to end the lives of those people - 7 minutes!  It won’t solve the problem but it might mitigate it.  Tighten up their licensing and checking system is a definite step in the right direction.   Will it solve the problem - No - but it might mitigate it.  Mental health needs to be addressed yes most definitely but that goes for a lot of countries around the world but if you have a more stringent approach to gun ownership you may actually stop a few incidents from actually occurring.   

 

Personally I think there will be change, not now and perhaps not in my lifetime but eventually the younger generations will move for change.  

I agree it will help to at least try and address the problem exists and teach the young and the easily impressionable that guns and violence isn't the answer to everything, something that their foreign policy seems to essentially comprise of. 

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Incidentally by Cosmic karma mechanism I am referring to the general demise and certain eventual realisation of everyone including Americans that theirs is just another country and that it will just need to make adjustments and fit in to the new world. Don't want anyone to think I consider school killings as karma. 

 

Edited by Hamster
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9 hours ago, Hamster said:

I (along with many) simply don't believe you can fix the US mass shooting and homicide problem by banning certain guns tomorrow, I never have done and I believe I have said words to that effect before. Guns alone aren't the problem (they are though very clearly an enabler of the offenders thought process).

I do believe that here they have made a difference, I believe that taking high capacity destructive weapons such as Kalashnikov and semi automatic rifles and hand guns out of general circulation together with stringent screening of certificate holders and keeping an eye on suspicious and rousing clues as to mental stability of individuals who may be susceptible to such crimes has at least potentially prevented recurrences of events such as Hungerford, in short I believe that had we done NOTHING and simply bought the cheap one liners such as : guns don't kill people, people kill people :rolleyes: we would have had one or three more than we have had the misfortune to experience.

As for the US I think they're too far gone, theirs isn't going to be fixed by mechanical means alone (not pretending ours can totally be either). I think their problem is a huge melting pot of factors,  a culture built on genocide, casually unrepentant (almost unaware) of any of its dark past who are brought up on the idea of American exceptionalism, who have in modern history supported and funded expansionist, apartheid regimes who by even a microscopically decent moral measure would be considered abhorrent, whose nation has been at war for 90%+ of its existence, who to this day mistreats its black populations, whose addiction to war knows no bounds, who idolises soulless snipers who kill innocent women and children (and men) who had nothing to do with 911 as hero's, who permits the shooting of someone on their lawn as self defence, whose police can execute people for traffic violations (and get away with it), who considers the poor and needy as lazy vermin, whose place in the world is in rapid decline, whose once proud manufacturing is a former shadow of its glorious past, whose healthcare is the most expensive in the world and inaccessible by millions of its citizens, whose poverty levels are unparalleled in the modern world, whose whose whose, you get the picture.  Americans live in this high octane winner takes all mindset which appears to view the weak as a disease. The cumulative affect of this toxic mix leads to human lives being viewed with less and less dignity, millions can still cope thankfully, thousands apparently find it difficult, hundreds (who snap) is what it takes to make mass killings and resort to gun violence an every day reality. 

I don't pretend to know the exact answers but I believe American violence abroad begets American violence at home. 

You appear to conveniently overlooking some facts and repeating the same claims in an effort to bolster your argument. There ARE still semi automatic rifles and handguns in general circulation in this country , still held quite legally. The stringent licensing system you talk about existed and was in place prior to all three of the mass shootings we’ve had in the UK mainland; it has changed very little since, despite what you claim, and there is absolutely NOTHING in place to prevent another from happening tomorrow. 

We have self loading rim fires and shotguns; we have Centre fire rifles and black powder handguns, all in legally held general circulation. 

Ultimately you’re just talking a ‘numbers’ game. 

Like I’ve said before; it would be interesting to discover how many parents and relatives of all those school shootings and the recent rock concert shootings own firearms, and how many of those are now willing to surrender their firearms or vote for registration or a licensing system. It’s an American mindset; having the freedom to own firearms as they do in most states comes at a price unfortunately. But it is ultimately an American problem; other nations have armed citizens without the occurrences in America. 

 

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46 minutes ago, bluesj said:

I think American will have to look at something different  to gun control alone to try to sort out their problem as it's only them that have these shootings ever few days!

I think you will find that statement to be a complete fallacy. 

Most South American countries have massively higher gun homicide rates, Jamaica, Swaziland again ,far higher.
And with less guns per capita.

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2 hours ago, Hamster said:

This is an interesting read : http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/13890-the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery

Nothing is as black and white as it may at first seem. 

Lol ,the source is some what suspect for your link about the 2nd.
The advert for the antifa handbook, kind of gives it away :lol:

But hey , thats your prerogative , you dont like Americans, or you dont like the US or its government, its a free country.
Maybe its because your mother country is at odds with US ideals and expansion ?
IT wouldnt be the first time we have been down this road.
What is clear is this, you level a lot of criticism, but offer no solution.

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On 16/02/2018 at 11:41, Scully said:

Despite what you say, there is still nothing to stop anyone from walking into a UK school with a legally held handgun and semi automatic rifle and running amok.

The English handgun ban had nothing to do with handguns and everything to do with politics.

You could license or even ban all firearms in the USA tomorrow and it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference. 

In the school I work at, we’ve recently introduced a system / plan for an incident similar to what you suggest. 

Trial runs were based on a potential angry parents getting into the building, but that was simply a story peddled to the students to avoid panic.   It involves a code appearing on all PC’s in the building, an alarm which will over rule in the fire alarm and the lockdown of classroom with some key site evacuations.  

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14 hours ago, Scully said:

I’m not suggesting another UK shooting massacre would be carried out with illegally held firearms. Hungerford, Dunblane and the Cumbrian shootings were all carried out with legally held firearms; there are still many thousands of legally held handguns and self loading rifles in circulation. 

Given that this is a fact, I’m intrigued to know how you would prevent another USA school shooting, or even implement a licensing system.

This is a cold and possibly inappropriate question to be asked at this time, but I can ask it because I’m not emotionally involved, but I’d be interested to know how many parents of those children killed, own firearms, and how many would now be willing to surrender theirs as a result. 

 

Maybe it is the wrong question.maybe the parents and relatives of those killed or injured are owners of guns.maybe they use them for sporting purposes. So no why would they give up their guns.however they would have every right to ask why a civilian should have the right to own a assault rifle for no other reason than I want one.these weapons are made to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible.i can't think of any reason why the ordinary person there would need one.especially when you see what is available to them.but on that note I dare say we won't have to wait many days where we can once again discuss this subject around the next incident.

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29 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

Maybe it is the wrong question.maybe the parents and relatives of those killed or injured are owners of guns.maybe they use them for sporting purposes. So no why would they give up their guns.however they would have every right to ask why a civilian should have the right to own a assault rifle for no other reason than I want one.these weapons are made to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible.i can't think of any reason why the ordinary person there would need one.especially when you see what is available to them.but on that note I dare say we won't have to wait many days where we can once again discuss this subject around the next incident.

First off, its not an 'assault rifle' an AR 15 is semi automatic, to be classed as an assault weapon it needs to be able to switch between full auto and semi auto.
To be caught with a full auto gun, in a state that doesnt have the very stringent licencing for such weapons, you will be going to jail.
Its calibre of .556 or .223 is a popular choice for fox control in this country, so its not like there isnt a legitimate use for such a 'war' calibre, even in the US.

There are lots of semi auto centre fires in circulation in the US, some that fire projectiles 3+ times more powerful, and some that dont look like a 'war' rifle.
They are no less deadly, no less accurate and can carry just as many rounds.
There are tens of thousands of .22lr semi autos in this country, some look like 'assault rifles' again, they are no more deadly than a bolt action one.
Stop looking at the gun.

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2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I think you will find that statement to be a complete fallacy. 

Most South American countries have massively higher gun homicide rates, Jamaica, Swaziland again ,far higher.
And with less guns per capita.

True but for the most part these aren't what are generally considered to be "developed countries" or "advanced economies". For a higher income country the USA has a very high murder by firearms rating. It also accounts for approximately 31% of all mass shootings over the last 50 years despite their population only being about 5% of the global pop.

 

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34 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

First off, its not an 'assault rifle' an AR 15 is semi automatic, to be classed as an assault weapon it needs to be able to switch between full auto and semi auto.
To be caught with a full auto gun, in a state that doesnt have the very stringent licencing for such weapons, you will be going to jail.
Its calibre of .556 or .223 is a popular choice for fox control in this country, so its not like there isnt a legitimate use for such a 'war' calibre, even in the US.

There are lots of semi auto centre fires in circulation in the US, some that fire projectiles 3+ times more powerful, and some that dont look like a 'war' rifle.
They are no less deadly, no less accurate and can carry just as many rounds.
There are tens of thousands of .22lr semi autos in this country, some look like 'assault rifles' again, they are no more deadly than a bolt action one.
Stop looking at the gun.

I read my post again twice and can't see where I said the ar15 was an assault weapon.my point was purely that the true sportsman might ask why there should not be control of some sort.personally I could not care less what they have. Theirs is a society where money is truly more valuable than life.people here are envious of the Americans. But would you really want to live in a society where you wave your child off to school on the bus in the morning to have them delivered back in a bag.and all because of a mis interpretation of a constitution that was out of date 100 years ago.

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4 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

I read my post again twice and can't see where I said the ar15 was an assault weapon.my point was purely that the true sportsman might ask why there should not be control of some sort.personally I could not care less what they have. Theirs is a society where money is truly more valuable than life.people here are envious of the Americans. But would you really want to live in a society where you wave your child off to school on the bus in the morning to have them delivered back in a bag.and all because of a mis interpretation of a constitution that was out of date 100 years ago.

Im sorry, but the weapon used in this case was an AR15 ,as per usual, and you said , 'Why should/ would  civilians want or need an assault rifle ?'
So it would be safe to assume you ,like 90 % of the rest of the population would think that is what is used in US mass shootings, its not.

 

44 minutes ago, Danger-Mouse said:

True but for the most part these aren't what are generally considered to be "developed countries" or "advanced economies". For a higher income country the USA has a very high murder by firearms rating. It also accounts for approximately 31% of all mass shootings over the last 50 years despite their population only being about 5% of the global pop.

 

True, but what he said was, only Americans have mass shootings, which is not true.

 

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8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry, but the weapon used in this case was an AR15 ,as per usual, and you said , 'Why should/ would  civilians want or need an assault rifle ?'
So it would be safe to assume you ,like 90 % of the rest of the population would think that is what is used in US mass shootings, its not.

 

 

Well I am sure that the knowledge that their children were not killed by assault rifles will be a great comfort to the relatives standing by the graveside.i am sorry but I don't care what country it is but any one that accepts these shootings so casually on such a regular basis as the Americans do and still defend their right to do it again is sick.

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3 hours ago, markm said:

In the school I work at, we’ve recently introduced a system / plan for an incident similar to what you suggest. 

Trial runs were based on a potential angry parents getting into the building, but that was simply a story peddled to the students to avoid panic.   It involves a code appearing on all PC’s in the building, an alarm which will over rule in the fire alarm and the lockdown of classroom with some key site evacuations.  

Would it be effective when the shooter is already in there? 

Apparently there was ‘security’ in place at the school in question; whether that security was armed or not I’m unaware. 

In Jerusalem there are two armed guards on every school bus. Undesirable admittedly, and the circumstances are different also ( although the reason for their necessity is similar )  but entirely logical in heavily armed societies. I would suggest the time has long passed for it to be necessary in the USA. 

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3 hours ago, bostonmick said:

Maybe it is the wrong question.maybe the parents and relatives of those killed or injured are owners of guns.maybe they use them for sporting purposes. So no why would they give up their guns.however they would have every right to ask why a civilian should have the right to own a assault rifle for no other reason than I want one.these weapons are made to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible.i can't think of any reason why the ordinary person there would need one.especially when you see what is available to them.but on that note I dare say we won't have to wait many days where we can once again discuss this subject around the next incident.

It’s not the wrong question  or the right question, but merely one of many which could be asked. 

Neither you nor I know if any or none of those parents or relatives own what you refer to as ‘assault rifles’ ( I believe it was this comment that Rewulf was referring to when he corrected you on this point ) but I’d still be interested to know what their thoughts are now if they do indeed own firearms, regarding registration or licensing, or any other kind of control. 

There is no reason why ‘ordinary’  people would need one, other than what is known in certain parts of America as freedom to choose. 

As has been mentioned; singling out one particular firearm is akin to claiming ‘that spoon made me fat!’  I doubt very much it was the spoon. 

Edited by Scully
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