CIL levy

[countryman]

Hi

Does any one know about CIL in the South Downs. I have recently had planning permission for a new barn 25ftx50ft which is now up and built. When I got my permission it said I was liable for a charge, I queried this with the planning consultant who put the plans in for me who contacted the planning officer and she said no not on agricultural barns. I have now received a letter from the South Downs basically asking who they should send the bill to, they have not said how much it is and no one is in the office to call until Monday. I have had a look on there web site and it's all very confusing but from what I can see a square meter  is between £150and £200 , I would not have the money to pay that sort of sum it's 3 times the cost of the Barn. I am really worried.

[harrycatcat1]

Its funny you asked this as i am in the process of selling a plot of land and that planning permission has attracted a CILL payment as its a new build. I think its about 5 grand they want from whoever builds it. These payments should be paid upon start otherwise they can attract penalties according to the council guidelines. 

I can only say about my council yours may well be different. 

Just found this on my council's website. 

CIL penalties and enforcement

CIL payment is mandatory and non-negotiable. If you do not pay on time you will be subject to a penalty without further notice, and any agreement for you to pay by instalments will be withdrawn.

There are strong enforcement powers and penalties for failure to pay, including stop notices, surcharges and prison terms.

Is there nothing on your council's website?

Edited February 17, 2018 by harrycatcat1
Spelling

[countryman]

I have come home to find this letter to day and I don't know what I am going to do if there is a bill for tens of thousands, I was told Agricultural barns don't come into it which is why I built it,now they are asking who is liable to pay. I can't get to speak to them until Monday. 

[harrycatcat1]

https://www.southdowns.gov.uk/planning/community-infrastructure-levy/cil-charging-schedule-related-policies/

Have a look here but it looks tough i think it's 50 quid a metre in our district.

[countryman]

Thanks I have looked there but I am not much wiser.

21 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Its funny you asked this as i am in the process of selling a plot of land and that planning permission has attracted a CILL payment as its a new build. I think its about 5 grand they want from whoever builds it. These payments should be paid upon start otherwise they can attract penalties according to the council guidelines. 

I can only say about my council yours may well be different. 

Just found this on my council's website. 

CIL penalties and enforcement

CIL payment is mandatory and non-negotiable. If you do not pay on time you will be subject to a penalty without further notice, and any agreement for you to pay by instalments will be withdrawn.

There are strong enforcement powers and penalties for failure to pay, including stop notices, surcharges and prison terms.

Is there nothing on your council's website?

I have looked on there but I can't see about Agricultural Barns.

[al4x]

All you can do is get back to your planning consultant on Monday morning.  It looks like being agricultural doesn’t exempt you unless you meet certain criteria so best to do more homework before you argue it too much

[harrycatcat1]

1 hour ago, countryman said:

Thanks I have looked there but I am not much wiser.

I have looked on there but I can't see about Agricultural Barns.

11. The chargeable amount of CIL for any new
development is calculated in accordance with Part
5 of the CIL Regulations (2010, as amended). The
locally set rates above are multiplied by the gross
internal areav of new buildings and enlargements to
existing buildings, taking demolished floorspace
into account and subject to the exemptions listed
in Part 6 of the Regulations.
12. In summary, Part 6 of the CIL Regulations 2010
(as amended) exempts the following types of
development from the CIL charges:
 Social (affordable) housing
 Domestic residential extensions
 Self-build development
 Development by charitable institutions
 Changes of use that do not increase
floorspace
 Buildings into which people do not normally
go or go only intermittently for the purpose
of maintaining or inspecting machinery, and
 Buildings with temporary planning permission.

I think the "any new" in the above covers it and below are the exemptions.

[countryman]

5 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

11. The chargeable amount of CIL for any new
development is calculated in accordance with Part
5 of the CIL Regulations (2010, as amended). The
locally set rates above are multiplied by the gross
internal areav of new buildings and enlargements to
existing buildings, taking demolished floorspace
into account and subject to the exemptions listed
in Part 6 of the Regulations.
12. In summary, Part 6 of the CIL Regulations 2010
(as amended) exempts the following types of
development from the CIL charges:
 Social (affordable) housing
 Domestic residential extensions
 Self-build development
 Development by charitable institutions
 Changes of use that do not increase
floorspace
 Buildings into which people do not normally
go or go only intermittently for the purpose
of maintaining or inspecting machinery, and
 Buildings with temporary planning permission.

I think the "any new" in the above covers it and below are the exemptions.

So what would a barn be classed as that has Farm machinery in ?  I can't believe that you would get a huge bill for just putting up a small barn for your own use. If this is the case then any new barn builds will be killed off, I certainly would not have built one.

Edited February 17, 2018 by countryman

[islandgun]

17 minutes ago, countryman said:

So what would a barn be classed as that has Farm machinery in ?  I can't believe that you would get a huge bill for just putting up a small barn for your own use. If this is the case then any new barn builds will be killed off, I certainly would not have built one.

your right, I hope you get it sorted on monday

[harrycatcat1]

26 minutes ago, countryman said:

So what would a barn be classed as that has Farm machinery in ?  I can't believe that you would get a huge bill for just putting up a small barn for your own use. If this is the case then any new barn builds will be killed off, I certainly would not have built one.

If you have built it yourself then it would be exempt. Thats what it looks like to me but i am no expert. I think you would be best taking some professional advice Monday before reacting to the letter.

[countryman]

11 minutes ago, islandgun said:

your right, I hope you get it sorted on monday

Thanks, I think I need to have a night cap. I had a nice day at the shooting show until I came home to this new Tax scam.

[countryman]

3 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

If you have built it yourself then it would be exempt. Thats what it looks like to me but i am no expert. I think you would be best taking some professional advice Monday before reacting to the letter.

I have looked on there web page several times and I am still no wiser. The letter they sent me today is quite a nasty piece of work really, threatening with fines and bailiffs to collect if you don't say who is going to pay, they have not even put how much you have to pay just that a bill is coming shortly. What a Country we live in now, paying Tax on what you earn is not enough for them now. Honestly I may as well sell up spend the money and then live of the government. 

[harrycatcat1]

29 minutes ago, countryman said:

I have looked on there web page several times and I am still no wiser. The letter they sent me today is quite a nasty piece of work really, threatening with fines and bailiffs to collect if you don't say who is going to pay, they have not even put how much you have to pay just that a bill is coming shortly. What a Country we live in now, paying Tax on what you earn is not enough for them now. Honestly I may as well sell up spend the money and then live of the government. 

Who applied for planning permission for you because at that stage you should have filled some forms in about it?

Its supposed to be paid when you commence development so thats why they will be peed off that you have not advised them that its commenced. Your council has been doing this since 2010 so its quite established there but our council its only been operating for a couple of years.

Take advice Monday. 

[countryman]

What's peed me off is the planning officer who dealt with the application checked her self with the South Downs and told her that Agricultural Barns are exempt from this. I'll have to wait until Monday but I have a feeling I am going to get different answers to this.

[harrycatcat1]

Oh well if you were told this then you should be ok 

[stevo_m]

1 hour ago, countryman said:

What's peed me off is the planning officer who dealt with the application checked her self with the South Downs and told her that Agricultural Barns are exempt from this. I'll have to wait until Monday but I have a feeling I am going to get different answers to this.

Did your planning officer get it in writing? If so, easy to prove.

[countryman]

11 hours ago, stevo_m said:

Did your planning officer get it in writing? If so, easy to prove.

I won't know until Monday. The searching I have done so far does not look good, on a farming forum one dairy farmer has paid out 26 grand in a Cil payment for a cow shed. NFU have been involved in trying to get this Tax stoped for Agricultural use but not much has happened.

Edited February 18, 2018 by countryman

[silver pigeon69]

13 hours ago, countryman said:

What's peed me off is the planning officer who dealt with the application checked her self with the South Downs and told her that Agricultural Barns are exempt from this. I'll have to wait until Monday but I have a feeling I am going to get different answers to this.

Do you have some way of recording a telephone call?? If you speak to her try and get her to confirm what she said. If you ask her to put it in writing, she will check and (if she has made an error) deny that she said it and it will be your word against hers and she will win! (been there, done it, not with CIL though)

13 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Oh well if you were told this then you should be ok 

I presume yo don't have many dealings with planners??  

11 hours ago, stevo_m said:

Did your planning officer get it in writing? If so, easy to prove.

I doubt it. Its very hard to get anything it writing from them. If you do its normally filled with "get outs" like, " we believe, but ultimately it is done to you to confirm etc etc"

[countryman]

5 minutes ago, silver pigeon69 said:

Do you have some way of recording a telephone call?? If you speak to her try and get her to confirm what she said. If you ask her to put it in writing, she will check and (if she has made an error) deny that she said it and it will be your word against hers and she will win! (been there, done it, not with CIL though)

I presume yo don't have many dealings with planners??  

I doubt it. Its very hard to get anything it writing from them. If you do its normally filled with "get outs" like, " we believe, but ultimately it is done to you to confirm etc etc"

I have not been this worried for a long time, my building is 117 square meters floor space and for my area on there web site I could be in the £150 or £200 per square meter. I will be borrowing against the house to raise the money. 

[silver pigeon69]

I strongly believe that you built it yourself( self build, project manger) and it is only being used for the below. I also believe that if CIL was applicable, that they should have stated it as a condition of the planning approval as they do with everything else like social housing payments etc. i'm not an expert but have had lots of dealings with planners on commercial and residential and have been lied to and given wrong info on numerous occasions!

15 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

 Buildings into which people do not normally
go or go only intermittently for the purpose
of maintaining or inspecting machinery

 

[Eyefor]

We had CIL charged on a recent plot we sold - but there is an appeal case somewhere where CIL does not apply to developments of (I think) 5 or less dwellings. We pointed this out to the Council and they withdrew the charge.

Also, as already stated, if you're self building for our own (or own family's) occupation there is no CIL charged.

Separately VAT charged on most items used on barn conversions is only 5%.

If you get stuck, PM me and I'll trawl through the files.

[Wymondley]

5 minutes ago, silver pigeon69 said:

  16 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

 Buildings into which people do not normally
go or go only intermittently for the purpose
of maintaining or inspecting machinery

This means buildings that house borehole pumps, transformers, generators, that sort of thing.

I'd have thought if you weren't advised of a CIL at the time of PP approval, either it's exempt or you have a good case to argue.

Considering the sums involved, I'd be taking professional advice.

[countryman]

2 hours ago, Eyefor said:

We had CIL charged on a recent plot we sold - but there is an appeal case somewhere where CIL does not apply to developments of (I think) 5 or less dwellings. We pointed this out to the Council and they withdrew the charge.

Also, as already stated, if you're self building for our own (or own family's) occupation there is no CIL charged.

Separately VAT charged on most items used on barn conversions is only 5%.

If you get stuck, PM me and I'll trawl through the files.

It's not a dwelling it's a barn for my Tractors and machinery. When I got the planning concent for it I saw on the conditions that it would be Cil charagable, at the time I did not know what that even was, i called the planning  guy who did all the planning for me and he said you don't pay Cil on agricultural barns but would check with the planning officer who dealt with the application, she came back and said she had spoken to South Downs and they said no fee on agricultural barns, but here I am with there form asking who to send the Cil bill to. After searching around all weekend it seems some councils do and some don't, I can not see any mention about Agricultural barns on the South Downs web site. There calculator on their web site which is supposed to tell you what you pay if anything is not working. My gut feeling is I am in for a big bill.

 

 

[old'un]

I don’t know a thing about this charge, but how do you stand if you remove the roof, this is a question, does anyone know if this temporally removes the charge?

[harrycatcat1]

35 minutes ago, old'un said:

I don’t know a thing about this charge, but how do you stand if you remove the roof, this is a question, does anyone know if this temporally removes the charge?

Its payable on the commencement of the development as i understand it.