Rim Fire Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) On 2/20/2018 at 20:59, Harnser said: It all seems so silly when you can shoot just about any where with anycalibre if you have an open ticket . harnser All land clearance is for you to have good enough reason to have your ticket the silly bit is rating land for one caliber and its not suited for another a back stop will stop any caliber because it is mother earth that is what they look at if it looks a bit flat then high seats is the way to go one of the worst calibers is a .22 it will ricochet of frost ground yet they will say i will rate it for .22 but not a 223 utter nonsense Edited February 22, 2018 by Rim Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) My first FEO, some 10 years ago, told me that he didn't shoot, neither did most of the FEO's he knew. Something to do with impartiality. lol If true, it might explain a few things when it comes to the subject of land clearances. Surely you'd need a lot of practical experience to be able to do the job? Did it not used to be far simpler? Like cleared for "Rimfire", ".22 calibre centerfire", ".30 calibre centerfire" or whatever. Wasn't that the original intention? Differentiating between .222 and .223 is sheer lunacy but differentiating between .204 and 30-06, then I could see the logic in it, to a point. Edited February 24, 2018 by notsosureshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 On 2/22/2018 at 07:15, Rim Fire said: All land clearance is for you to have good enough reason to have your ticket the silly bit is rating land for one caliber and its not suited for another a back stop will stop any caliber because it is mother earth that is what they look at if it looks a bit flat then high seats is the way to go For the first piece of land for your ticket justification i can maybe understand. I had 24 parcels cleared over the first year. On 2/24/2018 at 09:10, notsosureshot said: Did it not used to be far simpler? Like cleared for "Rimfire", ".22 calibre centerfire", ".30 calibre centerfire" or whatever. Wasn't that the original intention? Differentiating between .222 and .223 is sheer lunacy but differentiating between .204 and 30-06, then I could see the logic in it, to a point. I cannot see any logic as far as safety is concerned. When the first piece is cleared for your initial ticket to be approved it confirms reason to own. After that it's up to the rifleman to take a safe shot on any ground approved. If the rifleman is the deemed capable to decide what is a safe shot on the approved land by virtue of their ticket then why would they not be able to make the judgement to take a shot on another piece of land? What are the FEO saying about the additional land when they clear it for a rifleman with a closed ticket? Pretty much any parcel can be shot safely with reasonable precautions. I just don't see the added value for the time and effort that goes into it. I would rather see a system where experience would be required on a r/f before a c/f was granted. I am happy that reason to own is checked against a piece of land. I cannot understand a system of closed or open ticket and subsequent land approvals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 4 hours ago, oowee said: For the first piece of land for your ticket justification i can maybe understand. I had 24 parcels cleared over the first year. I cannot see any logic as far as safety is concerned. When the first piece is cleared for your initial ticket to be approved it confirms reason to own. After that it's up to the rifleman to take a safe shot on any ground approved. If the rifleman is the deemed capable to decide what is a safe shot on the approved land by virtue of their ticket then why would they not be able to make the judgement to take a shot on another piece of land? What are the FEO saying about the additional land when they clear it for a rifleman with a closed ticket? Pretty much any parcel can be shot safely with reasonable precautions. I just don't see the added value for the time and effort that goes into it. I would rather see a system where experience would be required on a r/f before a c/f was granted. I am happy that reason to own is checked against a piece of land. I cannot understand a system of closed or open ticket and subsequent land approvals. I agree i don't know where they get there guidelines from here in Gwent they are terrible for rating land as i said how do a 243 not go through a backstop and a 308 will when i challenged them over it all he said was i don't make the rules up but he did do the rating of that piece of land so where did he get the 243 ok and 308 not so ok how do they manage over the somerset levels or the midlands where the land is flat baffles me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 I was of the understanding that land is cleared up to a certain caliber, so land passed for 308 would be suitable for all calibers up to and all below said calibers. I have been in the similar boat with Derbyshire , they would pass this bit of land for 223 but not 22.250. I rang up Derbyshire and asked them why they thought that it's suitable for a 223 and not 22.250. Their explanation was hilarious, the 22.250 was faster, therefore more dangerous. So the 223 was more acceptable to point in the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 11 hours ago, Dougy said: I was of the understanding that land is cleared up to a certain caliber, so land passed for 308 would be suitable for all calibers up to and all below said calibers. I have been in the similar boat with Derbyshire , they would pass this bit of land for 223 but not 22.250. I rang up Derbyshire and asked them why they thought that it's suitable for a 223 and not 22.250. Their explanation was hilarious, the 22.250 was faster, therefore more dangerous. So the 223 was more acceptable to point in the wrong direction. Hahaha so the 22/250 got there quicker but hit the same backstop i would still like to know where they get there guidelines from is there a set ruling or dose depend on weather he got out of the right side of bed that morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushandpull Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 If a bullet comes your kitchen window from 2 km away, I doubt if you would be too concerned whether it was 55 grain or 250 ! Someone has fired a dangerous shot. By the way, there is much talk here of calibre. Strictly speaking, .308 Win is a cartridge designation. There are a dozen or so cartridges which all use .308 diameter bullets from (as I recall) 30-30 to .300 Weatherby Magnum and beyond. All are about as potentially dangerous without a safe backstop although some might said to be a little more dangerous at the user's end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 on the flip side when I was on a closed ticket and asked for some land to be cleared we did it over the phone, I gave them the location, they checked it out on OS maps (I presume) and cleared it there and then. Sounds like Devon and Cornwall are a bit less restrictive than some others... are simply lack of staffing and time to come out in person! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Pushandpull said: By the way, there is much talk here of calibre. Strictly speaking, .308 Win is a cartridge designation. There are a dozen or so cartridges which all use .308 diameter bullets from (as I recall) 30-30 to .300 Weatherby Magnum and beyond. Yes but sometimes it works for us can remember being told to use my 308s on a patch of land not 30/06 as it was too powerful, when challenging this I pointed out my 308 Norma Magnum produced a lot more energy than a 30/06 sprg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) There is a story at a club I belong to, its almost folklore now it has been repeated so many times. I do know the person involved quite well and I totally believe its true. A very keen fox shooter with a .223 in what is quite a built up area he wanted a fox condition added for his gallery rifle, a .38/.357 Marlin lever action for close in work. The reply came back straight away no because it was too powerful for fox. The logic appear to be a larger bore size is perceived as a measure of the power. I am sure this happens in a number of refusals and is purely a lack of understanding. Also heard of "that calibre is not on the list" Edited February 26, 2018 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 29 minutes ago, Vince Green said: There is a story at a club I belong to, its almost folklore now it has been repeated so many times. I do know the person involved quite well and I totally believe its true. A very keen fox shooter with a .223 in what is quite a built up area he wanted a fox condition added for his gallery rifle, a .38/.357 Marlin lever action for close in work. The reply came back straight away no because it was too powerful for fox. The logic appear to be a larger bore size is perceived as a measure of the power. I am sure this happens in a number of refusals and is purely a lack of understanding. Also heard of "that calibre is not on the list" I think you are right on that so where do they get the FAO frome why don't they try and get someone with a bit of shooting background so they understand the situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Quote However I know individual FEOs have made up their own ideas. Durham to a tee a good while ago....a new FEO (a wildlife officer) started to go through renewals the way he thought fit, took calibers from FAC's, & also re-accessed land. On my renewal a note was attached with a little map of one of the permissions, basically saying that when using a 22 RF I could only shoot in certain directions, as the 22 could kill at a mile & a half. I told him at the interview that I had a open cert& could access the land myself, his reply was it didn't matter, Durhams new strategy. Later, after he was removed from this position for creating a backlog & numerous complaints, it came to light that the land he accessed was done with a map & a compass (no visit or walk around)....depending on the caliber he would draw a circle on the map (in my case the 22) representing 1-1/2mile & decide from there what would be the outcome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 36 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said: Durham to a tee a good while ago....a new FEO (a wildlife officer) started to go through renewals the way he thought fit, took calibers from FAC's, & also re-accessed land. On my renewal a note was attached with a little map of one of the permissions, basically saying that when using a 22 RF I could only shoot in certain directions, as the 22 could kill at a mile & a half. I told him at the interview that I had a open cert& could access the land myself, his reply was it didn't matter, Durhams new strategy. Later, after he was removed from this position for creating a backlog & numerous complaints, it came to light that the land he accessed was done with a map & a compass (no visit or walk around)....depending on the caliber he would draw a circle on the map (in my case the 22) representing 1-1/2mile & decide from there what would be the outcome... that story about a .22 being able to kill at a mile and a half is just so ridiculous. Many years ago we were camping on the shores of a lake, about 6am in the morning the surface of the lake was like a mirror. My friend started shooting a 9mm pistol out onto the lake to see the splash at the point where the bullet came down. No matter what elevation he fired at he couldn't get further than about 4-500 yds out. I can't imagine you are going to get that much further out with a .22LR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 My experience is its the luck of the draw with FEO's. My first visit and land inspection was done by a great bloke who was a sporting shooter himself. He was professional and very helpfull with the guidance he gave me. My next land clearance visit was from an ex serving officer trainee who had less than no idea about shooting but seemed used to getting his own way. We clashed on almost everything he said to the point of me saying I'd get BASC involved about his insistence that because FAC air had a similar muzzle velocity to LR subs he'd only pass land that was over 60 acres for air even if the land formed a basin, so as not to set a precedent. I left it that he should speak to someone who knows his job and get back to me later that day before I contact BASC. He was on the phone within a couple of hours to pass the land. He later had the same attitutude to my 17REM needing a minimum 200 acre plot. He got over ruled on almost every decision I applied for by someone who knew the job. Never saw or heard of him after that - heard he'd retired soon after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 4 hours ago, thepasty said: on the flip side when I was on a closed ticket and asked for some land to be cleared we did it over the phone, I gave them the location, they checked it out on OS maps (I presume) and cleared it there and then. Sounds like Devon and Cornwall are a bit less restrictive than some others... are simply lack of staffing and time to come out in person! I did some over the phone which is ok if they are on the data base by name and address of owner. Often they had different farm names as the farmer might use different ones for trading. So I had to send them in. What is obvious is that they do not clear the land even on inspection, they often don't want to walk on the fields. They do not know the boundaries in many instances which are constantly changing. They simply clear the name and address. On meeting I would get my book out to indicate the boundaries and hazards. What really surprised them was talking about backstops being on another farm ownership (where I also had permission). Initially I sent in 6 requests as unsigned 646 forms after my first approval thinking this would be helpful for them to complete. They said they could not process them without signatures. I pointed out that I could have just called with the details but thought sending them would be helpful. I asked for them to be sent back and i would call and run through them over the phone, to be told as they had now seen them unsigned and therefore would not be able to respond! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Quote that story about a .22 being able to kill at a mile and a half is just so ridiculous. He read it on the side of the box Vince & quoted it as if it was wrote in stone....A wildlife Officer with a hidden agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Quote from my FEO in an e-mail: "...Furthermore, as your land was cleared to .243, there will be no problem using your .308 as they are both full bore and there will be no issues..." The roe deer certainly didn't argue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 12 hours ago, spandit said: Quote from my FEO in an e-mail: "...Furthermore, as your land was cleared to .243, there will be no problem using your .308 as they are both full bore and there will be no issues..." The roe deer certainly didn't argue sound like your FEO knows what he talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Rim Fire said: sound like your FEO knows what he talking about They are pretty good in Sussex. I had taken the time to establish a rapport with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry136 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Just to update you all on this, as we all know there is a huge disparity between forces. Anyway I spoke to an FEO from N Yorks who would of let me have a .308/.270 as their take is a back stop is a backstop no matter what calibre. My force is W Yorks so I will be putting in for a variation at the Northern Shooting Show, if they don't play ball iwill be going from their stand to the BASC stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Good luck let us know how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry136 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 N Yorks, said they only rate land in 3 ways air, rimfire or centre fire. How it SHOULD be done! Unless applying for a .50 cal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Exactly how it should be done. Wish they would have a word in the ear of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 I had some perfectly good land ..600plus acres refused for 308. Then discovered the Inspector in charge of the Licensing department had approached the owner for permission. I had one FEO turn out and it was obvious from word GO that he hadn't a clue. He looked on the Ordnance Map I supplied , saw 'railway track' and said, "OH yes, that would make a good backstop". The fact the line did not now exist and most of it was below eye level anyway didn't seem to faze him. Unfortunately we are losing one of the good ones from Leicestershire who is retiring. Certainly you should build a case before making the application. Type of soil, location of public access/roads etc., high seats with specified angles of safe fire etc etc., with maps and a full written report. Make a professional job of presenting yourself and the ground. The calibre thing is a total different story but again you can present specifics on them such as muzzle velocity, ft lb energy, trajectory for each cartridge, comparing one with the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Walker570 said: .... Unfortunately we are losing one of the good ones from Leicestershire who is retiring. ... Would be John 'T' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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