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Use of the 'Safety' catch.


Westley
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3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Scully, the important thing is having your brain in gear and being aware of where everyone is situated or likely to be...guns, beaters, pickers up..even walkers on a footpath which has happened to me a couple of times as orange clad folks suddenly unexpectedly appear infront from a hole in the woodside.  Better they have a polite "Good morning" and a touch of the cap than a load of 6s.

Yes; I often think those 'mishaps' on game shoots are down to nothing more than complacency. Decades of 'this is how I've always done it' and 'it'll be reet......it's empty.'

I know a bloke whose pre shoot talk to the guns consists of amongst other things, 'all guns to be carried in slips between drives', then without fail ON EVERY SINGLE SHOOT DAY, walks about between drives, with it in his hand.....closed. 

We mainly get cyclists and riders on our driven days ( though anyone can and has turned up on the rough shoot! )  they all get a 'morning', even if they're not supposed to be there. Most have the good manners to look suitably embarrassed. 

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37 minutes ago, Westley said:

ABSOLUTELY  !    I was involved with running a ground for 17 years and have worked as an Instructor at several grounds too. It is nearly always the game shooters that cause the most concern.

Well im saying as i see it ..

I dont do a lot of clay shooting to be fair .but when I have I seem to spend more time ducking out of the way of swinging barrels. Open and closed guns than actually shooting myself ..i don't like it .

Who (what discipline?) They come from I dont know .but they are there to shoot clays on the day .so they are clay shooters surely  ? 

I can't comment on drivendays  and walked up .don't do it .

If my negative comments upset you but you also see bad practice at a ground you can't disagree with my observations.

I'm sure there are loads of very safe and professional clay shooters and I see a lot of excellent form too .

 

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4 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Ok .a question to the clay shooter with ou.guns 

Do you feel it safe and acceptable to sweep or  accidentally point a gun at a person when the gun is broken ?? 

I dont think it is .

You could argue that the gun is safe as the cart cant be fired .

But what if you had a dead mans click and a cart failed to go off and you break the gun and then sweep a person and then with an open gun the primer ignites ? You effectivley fire forwards and backwards .at the same time .

I see people carrying ou .broken over a shoulder at clay grounds all the time .sweeping people and following people down paths .for all I know there is 2 carts in the breech that could ? Go off..

A broken gun isn't 100 % imo .

 

Poor muzzle awareness  is rife at clay grounds .broken or not .

I agree a broken gun is better than closed (obviously) but still ! 

No it’s not acceptable to sweep anyone with cartridges in the barrel, guns are only to be loaded when a competitor is on the shooting mark, and then only with the barrels pointing out over the shooting range so absolutely no sweeping at all.

Regarding miss fires or hang fires the gun should be shouldered pointing down range for 30 seconds after pulling the trigger, only then do you break the gun, also with most clay guns the cartridge automatically ejects if the cartridge has been struck. Not to sure how an auto safety would help stop this either.

A broken gun is just two metal tubes and of no danger, if someone was walking round with two carts stuck in the end then yes, I would have a problem, but this is against the rules at every clay ground I have ever been to.

In all my years at clay grounds I have never seen a broken gun with carts in outside the stand or hoop, I have only seen people come out of the stand with a closed breach or gun and try and argue the safety is on so its ok.

I personally don’t like people carrying guns over the shoulder but that’s because I have been whacked in the face by stock or a barrel a few times not because I might get shot.

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2 minutes ago, timps said:

No it’s not acceptable to sweep anyone with cartridges in the barrel, guns are only to be loaded when a competitor is on the shooting mark, and then only with the barrels pointing out over the shooting range so absolutely no sweeping at all.

Regarding miss fires or hang fires the gun should be shouldered pointing down range for 30 seconds after pulling the trigger, only then do you break the gun, also with most clay guns the cartridge automatically ejects if the cartridge has been struck. Not to sure how an auto safety would help stop this either.

A broken gun is just two metal tubes and of no danger, if someone was walking round with two carts stuck in the end then yes, I would have a problem, but this is against the rules at every clay ground I have ever been to.

In all my years at clay grounds I have never seen a broken gun with carts in outside the stand or hoop, I have only seen people come out of the stand with a closed breach or gun and try and argue the safety is on so its ok.

I personally don’t like people carrying guns over the shoulder but that’s because I have been whacked in the face by stock or a barrel a few times not because I might get shot.

That's fair enough .but I dont KNOW .if the gun  is empty. If I'm looking down the muzzle. Best practice it maybe .but this thread started about saftey and muzzle awareness  .and over the shoulder is ,zero muzzle awareness and that leads to complacency. 

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13 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

No not necessarily. 

What if it has 2 carts in it .and it's slung over a shoulder .and your walking behind and the muzzle is pointing your way .? You would feel perfectly safe ? 

Come on read his post open and EMPTY it doesn’t have two cartridges.  

 

And game shooters come to clay grounds to practice game shooting that doesn’t make them clay shooters, just like me driving on a track day at silverstone doesn’t make me a racing driver.  

 

People regulary point closed guns in slips at people more unacceptable than an open and empty gun. 

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17 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

That's fair enough .but I dont KNOW .if the gun  is empty. If I'm looking down the muzzle. Best practice it maybe .but this thread started about saftey and muzzle awareness  .and over the shoulder is ,zero muzzle awareness and that leads to complacency. 

You won’t get any argument from me on that, the bloke that walked up to the side of me while I was waiting to shoot next then turned around with the gun on his shoulder cracking me on the side of the head had no idea where his muzzle was pointing. I could see the gun was unloaded I could also see stars as well.  Like I have said in my opinion I don’t like it,  even if they have hold of the muzzle as I have been hit by a stock as well.

A broken gun over the arm or in the hand for me, unless in a slip with the muzzle pointing down at all times.

 

Edited by timps
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4 minutes ago, welshwarrior said:

Come on read his post open and EMPTY it doesn’t have two cartridges.  

 

And game shooters come to clay grounds to practice game shooting that doesn’t make them clay shooters, just like me driving on a track day at silverstone doesn’t make me a racing driver.  

 

People regulary point closed guns in slips at people more unacceptable than an open and empty gun. 

Ok fair enough. He did say empty .sorry .

Ps .I'm not looking for any argument .

I just like to feel safe .in the hide .in the field or on a clay ground .

And for me (for what thats worth )

Is to have guns pointing is a safe direction at all times with the saftey on .

Broken is good too .unloaded is better .

In a slip is lovely. 

Cheers .

Think this has been done .

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14 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Ok fair enough. He did say empty .sorry .

Ps .I'm not looking for any argument .

I just like to feel safe .in the hide .in the field or on a clay ground .

And for me (for what thats worth )

Is to have guns pointing is a safe direction at all times with the saftey on .

Broken is good too .unloaded is better .

In a slip is lovely. 

Cheers .

Think this has been done .

Twice I’ve challenged people for pointing closed guns at me in slips and opened their gun and found cartridge or cartridges in the gun that was “safe” one had been loaded for 6 months since last season.  Gun slips don’t stop pellets open and empty is safest.  

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23 hours ago, aga man said:

Personally I only take the safety catch off when mounting the gun for a shot. That is the way I was always taught back in the day. I agree awareness of where the muzzles are pointing is far more important but to me the safety should be on until the gun needs to be discharged.

People who shoot with me in a pigeon hide and leave the safety catch off seldom get a second invite.

Exactly the way I see it, and everyone else that I shoot with.

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I do find it hard to believe that some people in this thread confess to have NEVER used a safety catch.

I always use one, and have never felt it a burden to have flick it off before I fire. I use an auto safety game gun on clays. It bothers me not a jot. If anything, it helps in my routine getting ready for the next shot.

It has been already said, muzzle awareness is THE main factor in gun safety. However, negligent discharges are an awful lot more difficult with a safety catch engaged!

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If its there, why NOT use it?  It's not a magic solution to anything, but it exists and it might keep someone safe once in a blue moon, which makes it worth using surely?

It's always going to be the one time you dont that someone gets hurt.

Practice makes engaging/disengaging it a natural act.  If someone can't be bothered learning their own firearm, theres little hope for them in any case.

3 hours ago, timps said:

In all my years at clay grounds I have never seen a broken gun with carts in outside the stand or hoop,

I have and if I'm totally honest I wasnt very concerned about it as the gun was broken and over an arm pointed at the floor. 

I always thought I was pretty aware when it comes to safety.  Whats the issue with the situation you described?  Is it in case they fall or stumble?

Edited by notsosureshot
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If you shoot clays only and follow the ground rules there genuinely isn’t a time to use your safety.

The gun is always unloaded between stands, nothing in the chambers, if there is then you have broken a major rule of every clay ground and every registered shoot I have ever been too, which is pretty much most of them. I don’t see the point of me engaging a safety on a broken unloaded gun, why not dismantle it and reassemble it in the stand to be extra safe.

The gun is only loaded when the barrels are pointed down range and I intend to send 28 grams of lead down that way anyway.

I would engage the safety, drop 2 carts in, close the gun and then disengage the safety immediately as I call pull. I genuinely don’t see the point of that routine, even if it did accidently discharge it’s going down range and the safety would only offer extra protection for the second it's actually on anyway.

If I was in a situation where I was walking with carts in the chambers and a broken gun then yes, I certainly would be using it, but even on my dad's farm I only walk with an unloaded gun so I don’t use it.

I am not advocating you should never use it but, in my case, there isn’t a time it’s of any benefit so I don’t.

Edited by timps
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I think I’m the one Motty was referring to; and I’ll openly admit I have never used the safety on any of my shotguns, and I’m struggling to think of a time I have on a rifle to be honest. 

A AYA I own has an auto safety and it’s a pain in the rear as I mostly always forget to knock it off before mounting the gun as I always have my guns broken prior to shooting, unless I’m in a hide. 

Many years of shooting handguns ( revolvers don’t have safeties ) instilled in me that muzzle awareness is paramount. Keep your fingers away from that trigger and you’re good to go.

Edited by Scully
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Scully, you are never one to be afraid to speak your mind which I applaud. However in this instance I believe you are misguided and wrong.

The safety catch must be on at all times until mounting the gun on a target at which time it can easily be pushed off. 

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That’s fair enough JDog, and I’m sorry, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. I have the utmost respect for many on here, including you; and while I understand perfectly why many wouldn’t want to shoot  with me, I will not knowingly shoot with anyone who believes that that safety will prevent them from shooting anyone. In my opinion such belief creates complacency. 

 

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Whilst we all have our views on safety and have all seen worrying incidents we must not forget how safe our sport is. I was in a marketing team at a major insurer and was asked to produce results from a huge Personal Accident account looking at occupation and activities and the lowest incidence of claiming was shooting sports with rugby and fishing two of the highest. Fishing seems an oddity but when we looked at individual incidents that were drownings or lightening/carbon rods. Do you not think chaps, because we think safety every time we shoot and look for good/poor safety we actually practise safety? The guy who checks his gun twice before placing it in the slip is not absent-minded but doubly safe??

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19 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Well im saying as i see it ..

I dont do a lot of clay shooting to be fair .but when I have I seem to spend more time ducking out of the way of swinging barrels. Open and closed guns than actually shooting myself ..i don't like it .

Who (what discipline?) They come from I dont know .but they are there to shoot clays on the day .so they are clay shooters surely  ? 

I can't comment on drivendays  and walked up .don't do it .

If my negative comments upset you but you also see bad practice at a ground you can't disagree with my observations.

I'm sure there are loads of very safe and professional clay shooters and I see a lot of excellent form too .

 

Your comments do not upset me in the least, I am saying it as I see it  !

In my experience, it is almost always game/field (call them what you will) shooters who display some of the worst gun handling I have had the misfortune to witness. Apart from 'practical shotgun', I have participated in every other form of shotgun shooting over the years. I am a pigeon/wildfowler/game shooter first and foremost, only turning to clay shooting in 1974. I CAN comment on driven days and walked up, having done a lot of both. Although I do NOT condone wearing a shotgun as a scarf, at least it is visible for all to see that it is empty. I do object to shooters smacking me around the ear with stock or barrels though !  In order to avoid partaking in some of the same behaviour, I use a gunslip to carry my gun around in. A gunslip being the thing that a lot of shooters leave in the boot, on the car park !  The same game shooters will carry their guns to their peg in a gunslip, but for some obscure reason, prefer to leave them in the car at a shooting ground.  When removing their unslipped guns from the gun rack, they then proceed to display the front bead to all who remain standing, prior to opening the bloody thing !  Muzzle awareness, I believe  ?  I totally agree with you, there are 'loads' (no pun intended) of VERY safe and professional clay shooters out there and IF a few more were to reach that standard of safety, what a far more enjoyable sport it would be. It does not happen very often, thankfully, BUT it does take some of the enjoyment off my day if I feel the need to offer 'advice' to some wayward soul or other !

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As scully says there are no safeties on revolvers. Back in the 70s and 80s I was turned out fairly regularly to do early morning armed raids on premises where a team of six would clear a four bedroom house in about 15 seconds, now muzzle awareness here is your only real safe way to go. You go in hard, don't know what to expect and gun handling in such circumstances quickly teaches you muzzle awareness.  If you just happened to be in charge of an 870 Wingmaster then you made the choice as to when that safety came off but until such time as you needed to engage a potential threat the muzzles where always up in the air.   To me, if the muzzles of the gun are not pointing at a person or in their general direction then that is my first consideration. I use the safety on my shotgun as and when I consider it necessary for the safety of everyone around me, generally if I consider the safety is required then I will open the gun instead.

It really is all between the ears.

It is good to have these discussions but are the dangerous shooters listening ?

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Gun either broken over the forearm, or closed pointing directly up in the air with the safety engaged......muzzle awareness is paramount, the safety catch Is there for a reason, so use it! but don't depend on it alone! At all times when not "ready for action" the gun is either broken and visibly empty! Or carried empty in its sleeve!

This is live quarry shooting with a SBS, auto safe gun! 

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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

As scully says there are no safeties on revolvers. Back in the 70s and 80s I was turned out fairly regularly to do early morning armed raids on premises where a team of six would clear a four bedroom house in about 15 seconds, now muzzle awareness here is your only real safe way to go. You go in hard, don't know what to expect and gun handling in such circumstances quickly teaches you muzzle awareness.  If you just happened to be in charge of an 870 Wingmaster then you made the choice as to when that safety came off but until such time as you needed to engage a potential threat the muzzles where always up in the air.   To me, if the muzzles of the gun are not pointing at a person or in their general direction then that is my first consideration. I use the safety on my shotgun as and when I consider it necessary for the safety of everyone around me, generally if I consider the safety is required then I will open the gun instead.

It really is all between the ears.

It is good to have these discussions but are the dangerous shooters listening ?

Yes, BUT when that gun was holstered, the hammer was on an empty chamber (ie, only 5 rounds loaded). It still did NOT stop a hole through the rear floor pan of a mini, when someones' gun caught in the seat belt, whilst climbing into the back seat  !    :innocent:

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