Use of the 'Safety' catch.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

What do you think the safety catch is there for? As an adornment?

You tell me......what other reason is there to use the safety catch provided, other than for the purpose of safety?

You’re conveniently avoiding my question by asking me one of your own. I asked, given that my gun is either broken, pointing skyward and no fingers near the trigger, what ‘reason’  could you give that would make my gun any safer than it already is. The answer is none; no reason whatsoever. 

To answer your question, the purpose of a safety is completely superfluous if all of those precautions I mentioned are adhered to. If they’re not adhered to, then sooner or later someone is going to get hurt, whether they’re using that safety or not. Like I said, anyone who relies on that safety to prevent them from shooting anyone.........?

[panoma1]

In the first instance, I was responding to your inappropriate "holier than thou" accusation directed at me!

It's not I that has failed to answer your question, it's you who are conveniently ignoring my answer! Which granted, was in question form.............quote "what other reason is there to use the safety catch provided, other than for the purpose of safety"........which in other words means I don't see any other purpose for it!......perhaps you and indeed anyone else on PW can give an alternative use for it?

I didn't say any of the gun safety handling/precautions you describe are not required or sensible, I recognise the purpose of providing a safety catch on a gun, not as you state "superfluous" but as an adjunct to gun safety.

Edited February 24, 2018 by panoma1

[Scully]

2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

In the first instance, I was responding to your inappropriate "holier than thou" accusation directed at me!

It's not I that has failed to answer your question, it's you who are conveniently ignoring my answer! Which granted, was in question form.............quote "what other reason is there to use the safety catch provided, other than for the purpose of safety"........which in other words means I don't see any other purpose for it!......perhaps you and indeed anyone else on PW can give an alternative use for it?

I didn't say any of the gun safety handling/precautions you describe are not required or sensible, I recognise the purpose of providing a safety catch on a gun, not as you state "superfluous" but as an adjunct to gun safety.

My apologies; I hadn't considered 'the clue is in the name' as a serious answer.  You're right, I don't see any purpose in the safety at all; all it does in my opinion is deliver a false sense of security. Safeties add absolutely nothing to safe gun handling, and anyone who depends on one is a danger to themselves and others.....'its ok, the safeties on.' 

[KB1]

11 hours ago, welshwarrior said:

If this happens again please tell the ground the staff should sort it out and not leave it to customers.  I’m luck our place uses caddies so it rarely happens.  

As to teaching with a semi auto, some do but it’s not for me correctly sized OU or SbS and light smooth cartridges there’s no issues IMHO but I’m lucky I’ve rack of guns to choose from not just 4 or 5 coaching guns.  

If their barrels had been pointing in my direction I would have said my piece, but if the daft **** don't care about their toes and chins then I'll leave the policing to the ground staff

 

[panoma1]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

My apologies; I hadn't considered 'the clue is in the name' as a serious answer.  You're right, I don't see any purpose in the safety at all; all it does in my opinion is deliver a false sense of security. Safeties add absolutely nothing to safe gun handling, and anyone who depends on one is a danger to themselves and others.....'its ok, the safeties on.' 

I too apologise, I hadn't realised that you know better than the experience of 150 years of gunmaking!

Please give us your thoughts as to why, If safety catches add absolutely nothing to gun safety, are they to the best of my knowlege, fitted to all shotguns, and have been since the mid to late 19th century?

As for safe gun handling, a safety catch when employed, contributes to safe gun handling, by adding another level of protection against human error which may result in an unintended discharge!

[Westley]

6 hours ago, Scully said:

I'm aware of the reason for only loading five rounds in a revolver; so if it was standard practise why were six loaded on this occasion? While I'm not denying it's feasible to lift a hammer in this manner, this is the only time I've heard of it being done and causing a discharge. Normally either nothing happens, or the hammer is locked as the cylinder fully rotates. Very unlucky. Dependant on discipline, most of our holsters had 'thumb breaks'.....'clam shells' only being used for Practical events.  Like I said, some classic and vintage revolvers only hold five rounds. 'Full use of the gun' events require six rounds in each reload. 

 

Because there is always one who knows best  !   If in plain clothes it was standard to carry the 2" barrel model in a 'hip' style or clam shell holster, in the small of the back. I can vouch for the fact that it certainly IS feasible and most certainly IS possible.   I was just glad I was in another vehicle.  Oh,  and there was also a 'quick draw McGraw' who shot himself in the *** ( load carrying donkey) in front of a mirror in the Gents  !  Hard to believe that THAT was possible too, but it was.  Trust me it WAS frightening  !

Edited February 24, 2018 by Westley

[Scully]

19 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I too apologise, I hadn't realised that you know better than the experience of 150 years of gunmaking!

Please give us your thoughts as to why, If safety catches add absolutely nothing to gun safety, are they to the best of my knowlege, fitted to all shotguns, and have been since the mid to late 19th century?

As for safe gun handling, a safety catch when employed, contributes to safe gun handling, by adding another level of protection against human error which may result in an unintended discharge!

Apology accepted, but now you know! ??

I have no idea why they’re fitted, as they serve absolutely no purpose towards gun safety at all in my opinion, but there was a time when it was accepted practise for guns to carry their guns under the arm, albeit pointed at the ground, but closed and loaded. I’ve met one or two who still do it, because that is what their fathers did and is how they’ve always done it. 

No one has ever been shot by a gun which was unloaded, broken and or pointed in a safe direction. I wonder if the same can be said about guns on which the safety was applied. 

 

[panoma1]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Apology accepted, but now you know! ??

I have no idea why they’re fitted, as they serve absolutely no purpose towards gun safety at all in my opinion, but there was a time when it was accepted practise for guns to carry their guns under the arm, albeit pointed at the ground, but closed and loaded. I’ve met one or two who still do it, because that is what their fathers did and is how they’ve always done it. 

No one has ever been shot by a gun which was unloaded, broken and or pointed in a safe direction. I wonder if the same can be said about guns on which the safety was applied. 

 

Safety catches "serve absolutely no purpose towards gun safety at all"......your words!

You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it is contrary to the overwhelming opinion of gunmakers and their clients throughout 150 years of history! 

You "have no idea why they are fitted".........again your words....do you not see the clue in the name, safety catch?

 

 

[Walker570]

No not the Met, thankfully.  We would never ever go out without out revolvers were fully loaded. Like muzzle awareness, then handling, carrying etc still has it's responsibilities.

TWO DOOR firearms unit vehicles !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   DEATH TRAPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We still had careless discharges.  I was on the rifle range one day when the range master called a halt/unload. Then we heard a set of two tones...that tells you how long ago...

and an ambulance went down the road at the centre of the range , turned and crossed to the pistol range, very quickly returning still on two tones.   One of our chief instructors had always insisted in having his holster tucked at the front which meant the muzzle was resting you know where. We all warned him to no avail. Anyway he went to draw and snagged, letting off a round which entered the inside of his thigh, missed the main artery and skidded down his thigh bone and came to rest right on top of his knee cap. Made his eyes water for sure. BUT,

the holster was not carried in the correct position, because for those who have not shot from a holster they are made to pitch to the rear, so should there be a careless discharge it should enter the ground about a yard behind where your standing ... DON'T  ask me how I know !!!  If you've never made a mistake, error whatever you want to call it, then you really have not done a lot or have a bad memory.

Stay safe, think safe.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Walker570

[Scully]

5 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Safety catches "serve absolutely no purpose towards gun safety at all"......your words!

You are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it is contrary to the overwhelming opinion of gunmakers and their clients throughout 150 years of history! 

You "have no idea why they are fitted".........again your words....do you not see the clue in the name, safety catch?

 

 

Yes, my words and my opinion, and I’ll stick to it. There is nothing worse when out shooting to find you’re next to someone who believes that that safety will prevent them from shooting me. I once turned around on our rough shoot to find a mate walking behind me with a loaded and closed gun. He was less than 10 yards away and when I asked him to break his gun he told me the inevitable....’it’s ok, the safeties on’. I told him in no uncertain terms that I didn’t care whether the safety was on or not.

Do away with safeties and then people will have to find an alternative means to be safe; which is a broken gun. It’s not rocket science. 

You carry on with the way you do it, and I’ll carry on with the way I do it. No one will ever convince me that a safety on a gun will prevent anyone from being shot. I doubt anyone has the nerve to test it; certainly not me. 

[ips]

I agree sully ?

[Westley]

5 hours ago, Walker570 said:

No not the Met, thankfully.  We would never ever go out without out revolvers were fully loaded. Like muzzle awareness, then handling, carrying etc still has it's responsibilities.

TWO DOOR firearms unit vehicles !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   DEATH TRAPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We still had careless discharges.  I was on the rifle range one day when the range master called a halt/unload. Then we heard a set of two tones...that tells you how long ago...

and an ambulance went down the road at the centre of the range , turned and crossed to the pistol range, very quickly returning still on two tones.   One of our chief instructors had always insisted in having his holster tucked at the front which meant the muzzle was resting you know where. We all warned him to no avail. Anyway he went to draw and snagged, letting off a round which entered the inside of his thigh, missed the main artery and skidded down his thigh bone and came to rest right on top of his knee cap. Made his eyes water for sure. BUT,

the holster was not carried in the correct position, because for those who have not shot from a holster they are made to pitch to the rear, so should there be a careless discharge it should enter the ground about a yard behind where your standing ... DON'T  ask me how I know !!!  If you've never made a mistake, error whatever you want to call it, then you really have not done a lot or have a bad memory.

Stay safe, think safe.

 

 

I am talking of pre Hungerford days when you had to get back to the nick and get a bloomin gun. You then took whatever transport was available, including 2 door cars !

[Dave at kelton]

On 23/02/2018 at 18:33, Blackpowder said:

 

I have occasionally loaded on double gun days and certainly would not like to do so with non auto safety catches.   Yet I am sure that in the hammer gun double gun days the loaded gun would be handed to the Gun fully cocked.

 

Blackpowder

 

[Dave at kelton]

Not entirely sure about the hammergun point. The photo of Lord de Grey shooting three hammerguns appears to show the hammers at half cock with his loaders. It would make sense from a speed point of view but not safety which is why half cock exists as far as I was aware As someone who shoots hammerguns I would be interested if there is anything documented on this point.

[Blackpowder]

Yes Dave would be interesting to see it documented , I am sure that I did read this once in the distant past but could not be certain.   Must say I am rather fond of my old plain Keeper Quality Army and Navy 12 bore.

 

Blackpowder

[cardigun]

One use for a Safety Catch, is to prevent accidents happening.  If you are shooting in dense woodland, it is possible for a bit of branch to snag the trigger.  Similarly, if you are wearing an "Old style" Solway Zipper Barbour, if is possible for the zipper-pull to find its way into you trigger guard. It happened to me on the Marsh once.

[DanBettin]

I'd side with anybody wanting to use the safety to make things safer (if only marginally) - I don't see how you can argue against the use of it. But I think anybody using the safety as a substitution in any way for any other sort of precaution should have their license revoked. I don't want to be around that. You'd have to be a real pleb to depend on the safety catch.

Edited February 26, 2018 by DanBettin

[panoma1]

4 hours ago, DanBettin said:

I'd side with anybody wanting to use the safety to make things safer (if only marginally) - I don't see how you can argue against the use of it. But I think anybody using the safety as a substitution in any way for any other sort of precaution should have their license revoked. I don't want to be around that. You'd have to be a real pleb to depend on the safety catch.

Which is pretty much what I wrote in my first posting on this issue Dan!.........Minus of course, the licence revoked comment!

Edited February 26, 2018 by panoma1
Edited because I really can't be bothered!

[Newbie to this]

Some people are just saying that a gun with the safety on, isn't a safe gun and shouldn't be considered as such. Unfortunately some people do consider it safe (I'm not suggesting that anyone has said that in this thread).

I can see the argument for using the safety as an additional safety measure, it's there why not use it, but the main thing is that an unloaded, broken gun (If your gun cannot be broken then a safety chamber flag should be in place) is about a safe as you can get and muzzle awareness is key.

 

[roadkill]

On 2/24/2018 at 13:42, Scully said:

You’re conveniently avoiding my question by asking me one of your own. I asked, given that my gun is either broken, pointing skyward and no fingers near the trigger, what ‘reason’  could you give that would make my gun any safer than it already is. The answer is none; no reason whatsoever. 

To answer your question, the purpose of a safety is completely superfluous if all of those precautions I mentioned are adhered to. If they’re not adhered to, then sooner or later someone is going to get hurt, whether they’re using that safety or not. Like I said, anyone who relies on that safety to prevent them from shooting anyone.........?

agree 100% with you, never had the need to use a safety catch. 

[Scully]

I’m out after this one as we’re just going round in circles, but just for the hard of hearing....IF YOU WANT TO AVOID ACCIDENTS.....KEEP THE GUN BROKEN; YOUR FINGERS OFF THE TRIGGER AND BE MUZZLE AWARE. Any one of those three methods will avoid anyone being shot. Used in conjunction with each other it is impossible for anyone to be shot. The same cannot be said of the safety catch. It really is that simple. 

[Walker570]

I'm with you Scully 100% but in certain circumstances  e.g when I am on a peg sitting on my stool, my shotgun is ported directly into the clear blue yonder and my safety is off ...BUT as soon as the situation changes my gun is opened imediately, emptied and put in the slip.  If you wish to go the whole hog and break your shotgun before fully withdrawing it from the slip, then that gun should never be pointed at another person, even if they are 100yrds away, imediately before you actually break the gun because it could/may go off carelessly.  There are very few accidents.  I never break my gun as I withdraw it but I look around and make absolutely sure that no other person is within range. Muzzle awareness prevents people getting killed not two little bits of metal interacting.

Added to Sculleys remarks....ENGAGE BRAIN.

[Dave at kelton]

9 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

Yes Dave would be interesting to see it documented , I am sure that I did read this once in the distant past but could not be certain.   Must say I am rather fond of my old plain Keeper Quality Army and Navy 12 bore.

 

Blackpowder

That is two of using hammers in the Borders then

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

I'm with you Scully 100% but in certain circumstances  e.g when I am on a peg sitting on my stool, my shotgun is ported directly into the clear blue yonder and my safety is off ...BUT as soon as the situation changes my gun is opened imediately, emptied and put in the slip.  If you wish to go the whole hog and break your shotgun before fully withdrawing it from the slip, then that gun should never be pointed at another person, even if they are 100yrds away, imediately before you actually break the gun because it could/may go off carelessly.  There are very few accidents.  I never break my gun as I withdraw it but I look around and make absolutely sure that no other person is within range. Muzzle awareness prevents people getting killed not two little bits of metal interacting.

Added to Sculleys remarks....ENGAGE BRAIN.

Just to add DITTO! It’s also nice to know that there is someone else out there who knows how to put a broken gun into and withdraw the same broken gun out of, a slip. ?

Right; that’s me definitely out. 

[panoma1]

Nope! In a live quarry shooting situation, it is my contention that the only time the safety catch should be disengaged, is on addressing the intended quarry.

If 1) you are standing/sitting with the gun "off" safe, or 2) standing with a gun (with a non auto safety catch) broken.........you are more at risk of an unintended discharge when 1) you are waiting for the action to start or 2) when closing the gun!

There is less likelihood of either happening, if the safety catch is engaged!

I agree that muzzle awareness is the single most important issue, in the safe handling of guns! 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by panoma1