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Closed ticket and guided stalking?


notsosureshot
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Hi all,

My understanding is that initial FAC grants are usually of the "closed" persuasion.  If someone is undertaking professionally guided stalking exclusively, I'm struggling to comprehend how this makes sense.  Professional stalkers usually have a lot of ground and as such it would be nigh on impossible for them to know what ground is cleared for individual calibres.  Some of it might never have even been looked at by an FEO/FLO.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, you apply for .270, yet unbeknownst to your guide and you, a single 150 acre field out of the 50,000 acre overall permission is only specifically cleared for .260 and you happen to be shooting it on a given day and therefore you're unwittingly breaking the law.  Another scenario, you're shooting from a high seat in one field cleared for .270 into another, thats only cleared for .260, yet have permission on both.

Surely this would create a legal nightmare as a client cannot possibly know the explicit details of their guides permissions and their guide cannot be expected to legally certify the same for the purposes of your own licence.

Professional guides and their customers cannot be expected to walk around with a list of thousands of individual land clearances/GPS coordinates and then be expected to plot everywhere they walk during a stalk.

On that basis, is it reasonable and/or necessary to request an open ticket for a first grant on the proviso that you will be undertaking professionally guided stalking only?

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about paying a random guy from the pub who got his DSC1 last week, I'm talking about professional outfits that advertise as such in well known publications, although unsure if there is a legal difference?

Many thanks.

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I’m sure my license used to say all the standard closed ticket stuff but because I’d put guided shooting as my good reason that it also said something along the lines of can be used on land cleared to be used in conjunction with guided stalking or something equally vague. It’s all open now so I can’t tell you precisely what it said. 

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I would expect most professional guides to have an open licence and as such there is no need for the land to be cleared for any specific caliber. I disagree with closed licences. If you are fit to have a gun you should be fit to make the right call about whether it is safe to take a shot or not. 

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44 minutes ago, WelshMike said:

I would expect most professional guides to have an open licence and as such there is no need for the land to be cleared for any specific caliber. I disagree with closed licences. If you are fit to have a gun you should be fit to make the right call about whether it is safe to take a shot or not. 

A guides open license has no bearing on the conditions imposed on his client's licence.

However, to answer the OP's question, all good guides will know what their land is cleared for.

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14 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

A guides open license has no bearing on the conditions imposed on his client's licence.

However, to answer the OP's question, all good guides will know what their land is cleared for.

Thanks Charlie.  I appreciate that good guides would likely know.  The problem would come if an innocent mistake was made, possible if the guide has several large estates.  The liability falls squarely on the client.  I can't see it being much of a defence to say "but the guide told me that it was ok" if that situation ever came to pass.

I'm not saying dont trust your guide!  Obviously you have to and they have to have a level of trust in you too for obvious reasons!

I'll see what the FEOs say, this must have been encountered before.

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I've emailed the FEOs.  Apparently they now only work from 10am until 3pm 3 days a week...........

Alright for some.

7 hours ago, The Mighty Prawn said:

If in doubt, get the estate rifle out

Understood, but that means leaving one in the car which isnt ideal.

I've asked for an open ticket but with a guided stalk restriction.  I think thats a fair request.  It effectively makes the ticket closed anyway.

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Same rules apply in Scotland over the issuing of a FAC.  

However, deer stalking estates up here are happy to take any fare paying guest shooting, you don't need a rifle or an FAC as you're under the supervision of the estate. If you want to use your own rifle thats up to you and if you're restricted to a specific piece of ground you need to discuss it with your issuing authority. Which shouldn't be a problem as again, you'll be shooting under the supervision of the estate's staff.

   

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