panoma1 Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Anyone explain how Fred's tracker is alleged to have stopped transmitting over a grouse moor around Edinburgh, only to come back to life some days later in the sea some miles (15 I believe?) off the coast? I didn't realise these trackers could be turned on an off at will? Raptor Persecution UK and Packham have insinuated it was killed by grouse moor keepers and the body dumped out at sea! Why would someone who killed it go to the trouble of dumping the body and the tracker at sea? Surely if someone wanted to cover up their crime, they would just remove the tracker from the bird and destroy it? none of this adds up! It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! Edited February 23, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benthejockey Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 What I struggle with with all these alleged raptor killings or if anyone wanted to shoot them and was stupid enough to do it why would they ever leave the body lying around? It just doesn’t make sense. Commit an illegal act and leave the evidence there for anyone to find is just stupid at the very least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Mmmmm...interesting. ? Mind you; if I was called Fred I wouldn’t want anyone to know where I was either. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Scully said: Mmmmm...interesting. ? Mind you; if I was called Fred I wouldn’t want anyone to know where I was either. ? Ha Ha HA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 theres a big bias against us,had a word with a lady with owls an hawks from around blackburn some time ago,,she said keeper has shot a harrier,how do u know i says,,,,its gone missin,she,is there any evidence me,no but we know he,s done it she,funny some time later harrier turned up tracker failed,,,funny how they never issue an appology cos they got it wrong,,,how can u win ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 13 hours ago, panoma1 said: Anyone explain how Fred's tracker is alleged to have stopped transmitting over a grouse moor around Edinburgh, only to come back to life some days later in the sea some miles (15 I believe?) off the coast? I didn't realise these trackers could be turned on an off at will? Raptor Persecution UK and Packham have insinuated it was killed by grouse moor keepers and the body dumped out at sea! Why would someone who killed it go to the trouble of dumping the body and the tracker at sea? Surely if someone wanted to cover up their crime, they would just remove the tracker from the bird and destroy it? none of this adds up! It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! Or someone could of shot it and dumped it, or do you think bird lovers kidnapped it to fit up the grouse shooters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClemFandango Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 19 hours ago, Benthejockey said: What I struggle with with all these alleged raptor killings or if anyone wanted to shoot them and was stupid enough to do it why would they ever leave the body lying around? It just doesn’t make sense. Commit an illegal act and leave the evidence there for anyone to find is just stupid at the very least. I have dealt with some of the raptor killing cases. Unfortunately people really are that stupid and it does happen. to top it you hear people boasting about it in the pub etc etc. god alone knows what happened to Fred's tracker, it depends on the type of tracker they fitted him with, some are unreliable and become less reliable as they age. This is a similar story to the Hen Harrier in the Trough of Bowland that went missing 3 or4 years ago, keepers were blamed for persecution although no evidence was found, RSPB went on national television to say as much and guess what... The bird turns up alive and well the next year, the tracker was faulty! RSPB have never issued a retraction or an apology for their statement although it would be largely useless as by then the damage was done. The really unfortunate thing is that persecution of raptors does still occur - not always by shooting, I have seen poisoning, egg theft and people throwing nets over peregrine nests for example, these people are not always keepers, pigeon fanciers, egg collectors take their toll, as do over enthusiastic ornithologists and photographers. As far as shooting is concerned the minority, and I believe it is the minority of idiotic, closed minded, old fashioned people that still think it's okay to harm birds of prey in today's world are at risk of jeopardizing the sport we love for the majority. the sooner we start to work with conservation organisations (many already are) and show we have nothing to hide and that the majority of keepers are professional and dilligent, law abiding citizens the harder the anti shooting lobby will have to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, ordnance said: Or someone could of shot it and dumped it, or do you think bird lovers kidnapped it to fit up the grouse shooters. If someone shot it, why would they of re-activated (turned on the tracker) before dumping it at sea? and why go to the trouble of taking it in a boat 15 miles out to sea, where the boat would be picked up on radar in the exact same position as the tracker started to operate? When the tracker started working i presume someone found/collected the bird? If so i presume an autopsy will be performed? Edit: I would imagine the coastguard/Customs would have recordings of their radar images and it would be very easy to check if there was a boat at the exact location as the tracker, when the tracker was activated. Edited February 24, 2018 by silver pigeon69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 9 hours ago, ordnance said: Or someone could of shot it and dumped it, or do you think bird lovers kidnapped it to fit up the grouse shooters. If you answer my question adequately rather than just reiterating the unproven intimation/allegation of the antis, then I may respond to your question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 I have a confession to make, I occasionally watch the one show on BBC 1. While watching said show I've seen a few interesting articles, one was about peregrines killing buzzards and the other was about an escaped eagle owl taking out its competitors. Which only goes to show there are many explanations for disappearing BOP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clakk Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) Unfortunately there are total beeps out there who need a week or 2 in the stocks.My friend farms in Wales and is nursing a 1 eyed Buzzard back to health , he couldnt save the Owl he found.Both shot in the head by ...............<fit your own word/s >.Whatever you think of raptors/owls nobody has the right to shoot such amazing creatures Edited February 24, 2018 by clakk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 5 hours ago, ClemFandango said: I have dealt with some of the raptor killing cases. Unfortunately people really are that stupid and it does happen. to top it you hear people boasting about it in the pub etc etc. god alone knows what happened to Fred's tracker, it depends on the type of tracker they fitted him with, some are unreliable and become less reliable as they age. This is a similar story to the Hen Harrier in the Trough of Bowland that went missing 3 or4 years ago, keepers were blamed for persecution although no evidence was found, RSPB went on national television to say as much and guess what... The bird turns up alive and well the next year, the tracker was faulty! RSPB have never issued a retraction or an apology for their statement although it would be largely useless as by then the damage was done. The really unfortunate thing is that persecution of raptors does still occur - not always by shooting, I have seen poisoning, egg theft and people throwing nets over peregrine nests for example, these people are not always keepers, pigeon fanciers, egg collectors take their toll, as do over enthusiastic ornithologists and photographers. As far as shooting is concerned the minority, and I believe it is the minority of idiotic, closed minded, old fashioned people that still think it's okay to harm birds of prey in today's world are at risk of jeopardizing the sport we love for the majority. the sooner we start to work with conservation organisations (many already are) and show we have nothing to hide and that the majority of keepers are professional and dilligent, law abiding citizens the harder the anti shooting lobby will have to work. This is a well thought out post. The idiots responsible for spreading rubbish defiantly need tackling to stop them spreading lies and deter others from jumping to conclusions, however, equally important and if not more so, is stopping the idiots actually carrying out these crimes as they will destroy our sport, burying our heads in the sand and denying that this type of crime happens will only add to the harm done to shooting as it will appear that the majority shooters condone this type of behaviour, I think we actually need to get together with even the opponents of our sport on this issue and tackle it together, showing that we do not tolerate the illegal killing of BOP either. (Just adding I'm not saying this particular bird has been the victim of foul play, just that we shouldn't 100% rule it out at this stage either) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) Two different subjects! I was posting on the ongoing dishonest propaganda war by certain protectionist individuals and groups, against shooting in general and Grouse shooting in particular..........I was not making comment on the extent of any unlawful killing of raptors, as I know little of the truth of it!..............Except of course, from the biased, deliberately misleading reporting and unproven allegations usually placed in/fed to the media, by anti shooting activists/extremists purporting to conservationists! Edited February 24, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 3 hours ago, panoma1 said: If you answer my question adequately rather than just reiterating the unproven intimation/allegation of the antis, then I may respond to your question! That's your post was ( unproven intimation/allegation ) You made a allegation without any evidence. Quote It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 11 minutes ago, ordnance said: That's your post was ( unproven intimation/allegation ) You made a allegation without any evidence. I made no allegation, I merely posed a series of questions based on the original report, and offered a suggested alternative (pro shooting) conclusion, to the one contained in the original media report! You still haven't tried to answer the questions posed in my original posting!........Or is it just your intention to be destructive rather than constructive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 I have absolutely no doubt that persecution exists having seen it with my own eyes, and I’m also aware that when some ‘keepers jobs depend on returns during the season that they sometimes feel they have to resort to drastic and sometimes illegal measures. I’m also aware that the extremists amongst the anti brigade are very capable of equally underhanded techniques to further an agenda. None of this excuses illegal activity, but it very often consists of shades of grey rather than black and white. Its not easy to sit down at a table with your opposite number when one party is resolved to provide birds for people to kill for sport, and the other is resolved to ban shooting. There is no middle ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: I made no allegation, I merely posed a series of questions based on the original report, and offered a suggested alternative (pro shooting) conclusion, to the one contained in the original media report! You still haven't tried to answer the questions posed in my original posting!........Or is it just your intention to be destructive rather than constructive? I am like you i don't know so i can not answer your questions, for that reason i would not be making any allegations (or questions) as you call them. Quote panoma1 It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! Edited February 24, 2018 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 53 minutes ago, ordnance said: I am like you i don't know so i can not answer your questions, for that reason i would not be making any allegations (or questions) as you call them. "I would not be making any allegations (or questions) as you call them" JHC! what are you babbling about man? As I suspected it appears your intention is to be destructive by being deliberately contrary! Your inability to understand and recognise the difference between an allegation, a question and a suggested alternative conclusion is truly staggering!...........Or perhaps I misjudge you, and English is not your first language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, panoma1 said: "I would not be making any allegations (or questions) as you call them" JHC! what are you babbling about man? As I suspected it appears your intention is to be destructive by being deliberately contrary! Your inability to understand and recognise the difference between an allegation, a question and a suggested alternative conclusion is truly staggering!...........Or perhaps I misjudge you, and English is not your first language? Call it want you want ( It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! ) It looks like a allegation to me not a question. If i have interpreted it wrong fine, its probably my poor English. Quote Allegation. A claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof. Edited February 24, 2018 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 55 minutes ago, ordnance said: Call it want you want ( It smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by the protectionists! ) It looks like a allegation to me not a question. If i have interpreted it wrong fine, its probably my poor English. I'll try one more time ..........an allegation would be written as.....its another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by protectionists! A suggested alternative conclusion would be written as........it smells like another fit up of Grouse shooting interests by protectionists! The questions I asked were contained in my original posting, you are attempting to misrepresent these questions as allegations! Is that clear enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltings Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) do the birdy people not believe that birds and other critters die of old age / natural causes rather than shot or poisoned reminds me of bird flue epidemic every bird found dead anywhere must have bird flue for joe public a little knowledge is a dangerous thing sadly a lot of things die way to early in life but that's nature sadly social media you don't need a brain to work it out for your self / common sense just jump on the band wagon where is basc and David Belamy to name a few joe public don't understand time for Julia Bradbury and kill it cook it eat it again Edited February 24, 2018 by Saltings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 Doesn't matter if another eagle killed Fred over territory, he got blown out to see in a storm or is full of lead shot, things like this highlight the cause against shooting, no evidence needed. As clem Fandango says the harm is done and nothing will be said further unless there is evidence of poisoning or lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 17 hours ago, Scully said: I have absolutely no doubt that persecution exists having seen it with my own eyes, and I’m also aware that when some ‘keepers jobs depend on returns during the season that they sometimes feel they have to resort to drastic and sometimes illegal measures. I’m also aware that the extremists amongst the anti brigade are very capable of equally underhanded techniques to further an agenda. None of this excuses illegal activity, but it very often consists of shades of grey rather than black and white. Its not easy to sit down at a table with your opposite number when one party is resolved to provide birds for people to kill for sport, and the other is resolved to ban shooting. There is no middle ground. Scully you hit the nail on the head then we all know it happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted February 25, 2018 Report Share Posted February 25, 2018 On the video (3:03) Packham very clearly points to one particular red dot on the map and states that that “…the signal from the tracker re-appears fifteen miles off of Fife Ness in St Andrews Bay, here…”, but OS maps shows the location cannot be much more than 5 miles from Fife Ness. The R SPB Scotland’s Head of Investigation also makes a claim (4:44) of “…re-awakening of the signal fifteen miles out in the North Sea.” Are both men incapable of basic map reading? Or have they deliberately multiplied the distance by a factor of three, and knowingly provided false information to the public and to ministers of the Scottish Government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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