ANOTHER BETRAYAL

[JohnfromUK]

That was what the Irish (both sides of the border) wanted - and demanded before we could move on to the 'next stage'.  They also demanded a HUGE and in my view quite unjustified 'divorce settlement' to which we have apparently agreed (in principle).  Now I can understand we have some obligations such as pensions for (British) EU staff and MEPs etc., but cannot conceive how they came to the (vast) total.  I cannot see why we should be being asked to contribute to future projects.  The problem is the EU is effectively bankrupt because it spends money it hasn't got and our leaving will leave a huge hole as we have (together with Germany and Holland) been propping it up.  That would have to finish.

[yates]

I agree with both sides of this argument. Although from South Yorkshire I am no a labour man, Conservative neither. But for those who think Corbyn has no chance I would genuinely start to worry as he becoming increasingly popular particularly with the young voters as well as the looney left

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Tim Kelly said:

I disagree. I believe we should be part of an european union, just not this one. It is fundamentally undemocratic and as it has evolved into a political union it needs to be democratic in the sense we understand, ie political parties with defined policies which we can vote for or against, europe wide. The benefits of being a part of the greater europe far outweigh costs, but it does need to be accountable. Migration is one of those things that will ebb and flow as particular countries are doing relatively better or worse than other ones. I live in London and have always been used to a mix of people and don't find it threatening in the way large parts of the country seem to. 

Actually, I don't think we are far apart - I phrased it poorly.  I an not against migration ......... either way ......... provided it is within our control and not imposed.  I believe we should be part of a common market, but NOT a common political union, NOT "ever closer integration", NOT a European army, NOT a commonly set (vast) budget .........

[Gordon R]

I love it when people bandy phrases like "soft Brexit" or "hard Brexit", as if they have a clue what they are talking about. There is not one person who can tell you what the outcome will actually be, as there are way too many variables. That doesn't stop people trying to sound clever. The referendum didn't mention the terms, although idiots will claim we didn't know what we were voting for - as if they know for certain how voters made their decision.

Bizarre.

[Mice!]

38 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Labour is not for the working class anymore, they stand for the non working and students.

Don't forget the minimum wage workers who they keep telling they'll get more cash.

I understand there will always be folk who like/hate con & lab what i don't get how someone like Corbyn can be constantly linked with terrorists and now spying but still be in charge of the communist party.

Also don't understand how a few conservative mps can threaten to topple May and the brexit deal because they don't want it, can May not just sack them??

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That was what the Irish (both sides of the border) wanted - and demanded before we could move on to the 'next stage'.  They also demanded a HUGE and in my view quite unjustified 'divorce settlement' to which we have apparently agreed (in principle).  Now I can understand we have some obligations such as pensions for (British) EU staff and MEPs etc., but cannot conceive how they came to the (vast) total.  I cannot see why we should be being asked to contribute to future projects.  The problem is the EU is effectively bankrupt because it spends money it hasn't got and our leaving will leave a huge hole as we have (together with Germany and Holland) been propping it up.  That would have to finish.

 

Welcome to the grey side  We go 'all in' cards out on the table. We put down markers that are too good to loose and then we hope to 'buy' a deal. 

We don't know what we voted for other than leave therefore we wont know what we voted for until we have left. 

[yod dropper]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

Leave the EU yes. Leave the customs union? We did not vote for that.

 

During the debate the discourse was clear that we would be free to make our own trade deals around the world when we left.  The EU position is that this is consistent with leaving the customs union so in effect we did vote for it.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Welcome to the grey side .......

I know we have already done some 'grey' things, and I rather think we should not have agreed to some of them (the 'divorce bill' for instance) - but we need OUT, not "out in name only", and keeping all of the rules and regulations that drove people to vote for out

[Vince Green]

43 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I love it when people bandy phrases like "soft Brexit" or "hard Brexit", as if they have a clue what they are talking about. There is not one person who can tell you what the outcome will actually be, as there are way too many variables. That doesn't stop people trying to sound clever. The referendum didn't mention the terms, although idiots will claim we didn't know what we were voting for - as if they know for certain how voters made their decision.

Bizarre.

Nobody on the remain side mentioned soft Brexit until after they lost.  Funny that!

[oowee]

46 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

During the debate the discourse was clear that we would be free to make our own trade deals around the world when we left.  The EU position is that this is consistent with leaving the customs union so in effect we did vote for it.

We voted for £350m a week in the NHS too.

Nothing is free in this world.

Edited February 26, 2018 by oowee

[Tim Kelly]

Had the vote been for anything definite, then the concept of soft or hard wouldn't have come up, but as is obvious, everyone voted for their own interpretation of what they thought brexit would be, therefore it is very valid to describe the degree of brexit we, as a whole country, really want.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

We voted for £350m a week in the NHS too.

If we hadn't agreed to give the EU a massive 'divorce settlement' the NHS would get it even sooner .......

[oowee]

Just now, Tim Kelly said:

Had the vote been for anything definite, then the concept of soft or hard wouldn't have come up, but as is obvious, everyone voted for their own interpretation of what they thought brexit would be, therefore it is very valid to describe the degree of brexit we, as a whole country, really want.

Exactly. So much nonsense was talked about prior to the vote i even expect my bananas to have more of a curve in a few years time. 

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

If we hadn't agreed to give the EU a massive 'divorce settlement' the NHS would get it even sooner .......

Trust me on this one. It wont happen.

[matone]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Don't forget the minimum wage workers who they keep telling they'll get more cash.

I understand there will always be folk who like/hate con & lab what i don't get how someone like Corbyn can be constantly linked with terrorists and now spying but still be in charge of the communist party.

Also don't understand how a few conservative mps can threaten to topple May and the brexit deal because they don't want it, can May not just sack them??

Exactly and that Soubry woman should be first down the road,in the interest of the country.

[Retsdon]

http://www.eureferendum.com  Unlike 99% of politicians, on Brexit this man knows what he's talking about.

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

therefore it is very valid to describe the degree of brexit we, as a whole country, really want.

Really? One man's soft Brexit is another man's hard Brexit. Show me one person who can tell us definitively what each entails. I will watch the skies for the flying pig squadron.

That said, the article above shows that this man knows politicians and just how shallow they are. I agree that Frank Field - never had much time for him in the past - suddenly looks light years better and with more integrity than the rest of the shabby bunch.

[Vince Green]

10 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

http://www.eureferendum.com  Unlike 99% of politicians, on Brexit this man knows what he's talking about.

Its scary just how much damage Corbyn is prepared to do to this country to achieve his twisted personal  political ambitions

Edited February 26, 2018 by Vince Green

[das]

Getting fed up now.

I voted in a referendum which was to leave the EU, Easy I thought, forget it. Our leaders are such a soft touch (but rember their future will always be much more
secure and comfortable than the milions who are left if this goes totally **** up).

Those in power need to grow a pair and fnish the job quickly.

Edited February 26, 2018 by das

[jam1e]

3 hours ago, TriBsa said:

How anybody can vote Conservative after the Cameron & May years is beyond me. The next election, unless there is an emergence of a credible alternative, will see most people I think reluctantly voting for the party they least despise. Cameron and May have opened the door even wider to mass immigration and have held the population in  equal contempt to their Labour predecessors. We seem to be careering towards a Brexit in name only and a betrayal of our democratic vote. Our two party system has never looked shabbier. 

Plus 1. Very depressing times. 

[yod dropper]

29 minutes ago, Tim Kelly said:

Had the vote been for anything definite, then the concept of soft or hard wouldn't have come up, but as is obvious, everyone voted for their own interpretation of what they thought brexit would be, therefore it is very valid to describe the degree of brexit we, as a whole country, really want.

You must remember Gove, Johnson & Co. banging on and on about controlling our own borders, making our own trade deals, setting our own laws; all the things that are consistent with what people call a hard Brexit.

[Retsdon]

9 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

3 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

You must remember Gove, Johnson & Co. banging on and on about controlling our own borders, making our own trade deals, setting our own laws; all the things that are consistent with what people call a hard Brexit.

INorthern Ireland is the fly in the ointment. Where exactly is a 'hard border' going to be erected?

[Tim Kelly]

I'm certain that a huge swathe of people, if not most people stopped listening to the politicians about halfway through the "campaign" when it became clear none of them had the first idea what they were talking about. I believe the majority of people made their voting decision based on their own thoughts about what was right or wrong with the current EU and how we interact with it. This was part of a huge spectrum. The vast majority of people I talk to were very much on the fence about which way they were voting and it was a very marginal decision either way.

[yod dropper]

16 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

INorthern Ireland is the fly in the ointment. Where exactly is a 'hard border' going to be erected?

Who knows?  I'm not sure we have to have one, we don't want one, ROI doesn't one but the EU might insist there has to be one.

[jam1e]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Jeremy Corbyn has been one of the EU's biggest critics for years. The fact that he has now suddenly come out on 'the other side' has nothing to do with Brexit and nothing to do with the EU.

He is just adopting a position to undermine May's negotiating position in Europe and weaken it.

What he is fully aware of is the fact that in weakening May's position he also weaken's Britain's position at the negotiating table. Junker and his merry little band will be further encouraged to prevaricate and make trouble. Why would they not do that? when if they succeed in bringing down May they can wait for Corbyn.

He knows exactly what he is doing and he is prepared to sell Britain down the river in order to get what he wants. No suprises there then, the man is a communist remember, nothing matters except the party Comrade 

I'm no fan of the self serving Conservatives, but at least May is trying to do something for the the winning vote people. Granted, not a lot..

Yet she is consistently undermined and stabbed in the back by her own party members. It's a no win situation for her. I honestly believe May won't last the year out, and the so called referendum will be binned.... It's a job trying to work out who you should support, (Albeit they're all trough slurpers..) We'll end up with the worst bits of staying in the EU, along the the worst parts of 'leaving' the EU!!

And Corbyn! He makes my skin crawl! Like you say nothing matters but 'the party comrade'.

He's a traitor! And she be treated as such! He would be better suited to North Korea! Or better still a date with the 'artist', Mr Albert Pierrepoint.....

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, yod dropper said:

Who knows?  I'm not sure we have to have one, we don't want one, ROI doesn't one but the EU might insist there has to be one.

This is symptomatic of the whole "EU problem".  Rules are imposed on us (for example apparently not being able to extradite Abu Hamza without the European Court's blessing).  The rules are often quite irrelevant.  No one owns up to 'wanting them', but we have to follow them because they are "EU rules".  We didn't vote for them, we don't want them, we can't (apparently) escape them.

Many of the other nations appear to ignore them, but we aren't like that.

The reason the vote went to leave (in my opinion) is quite simply that the British public are fed up to the back teeth with the EU imposing rules on us that are none of their business, these being just a few examples;

• Extraditing terrorist suspects
• Importing bananas
• Vacuum cleaner motor power
• Coal early closure of coal power stations
• Possible banning of glyphosate

I'd love to continue to trade (tariff free) with the EU, sell them our foods and produce, buy their goods and produce, but that should not stop us making trade deals with other countries on OUR terms, extradite people as decided by OUR courts, close power stations when WE are ready, buy the vacuum cleaner WE choose, use agricultural chemicals passed by OUR safety authorities, choose who WE allow in etc etc.