Which steel cartridges are you using ?

[Big Mat]

23 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

No way.

Shoot steel through the "wrong" gun with the wrong choke(s). Let's be sensible Motty?

The use of steel is gaining pace and just because you may not own an old traditional english SXS built for the lead cartridge doesn't mean you should trash other sportsman that do. Or is it some thing else with you?     

 

You're the one thrashing other sportsmen for using steel?

[motty]

13 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

No way.

Shoot steel through the "wrong" gun with the wrong choke(s). Let's be sensible Motty?

The use of steel is gaining pace and just because you may not own an old traditional english SXS built for the lead cartridge doesn't mean you should trash other sportsman that do. Or is it some thing else with you?     

 

The use of steel gaining pace? Not sure. It is a requirement for non toxic shot to be used on wildfowl in England, and steel is the cheapest. Some people use it on pigeons, too, as it is very effective. It has its advantages over lead, but also some disadvantages. It is also suitable to be used in probably 95% of all guns in circulation. I will not accept that steel shot ruins guns. I have not read a single post from anyone on this site that has reported such damage to their guns due to steel shot usage. Strange, don't you think?

I wouldn't want to "trash" any sportsman. I can't see how that could be implied.

[6.5x55SE]

20 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

No way.

Shoot steel through the "wrong" gun with the wrong choke(s). Let's be sensible Motty?

The use of steel is gaining pace and just because you may not own an old traditional english SXS built for the lead cartridge doesn't mean you should trash other sportsman that do. Or is it some thing else with you?     

 

Take your own advice and stop ( your choice of word ) Trash those that move with the Times.

I'm certainly no spring chicken when Non Toxic was in the Volunteer Year i personally stopped using Lead  Why because the Law had been made was i happy No did i kill less Geese or Duck No did i lose out on range No.

Present day i often use ( not English i know ) a very old fixed choke SBS gun i dread to think how much steel shot has been up those barrels with no ill effect. I know a few Wildfowlers who use steel through English Gun's to no ill effect.

Now if you done a bit of unbiased research you'd find that There is Fibre Cup wads suitable for Steel shot so the best of both worlds Fibre wad and fully encased Steel shot that won't touch the inside of the barrels.

Move with the times you just might be pleasantly surprised 

[WinchesterDave]

I use Gamebore Super Steel 32g 4 to great effect both on the marsh and game shooting. I genuinely love that cartridge and I dont think I would ever change!

[Kraai]

Here whe go again... i personal have not seen a gun ruined bij steel not even the gun shop where i go have seen any...

So please i you never have shot steel en you now it just from someone who have heard it and not seen it stop talking bul....

Even older guns have not been broken...

4 minutes ago, WinchesterDave said:

I use Gamebore Super Steel 32g 4 to great effect both on the marsh and game shooting. I genuinely love that cartridge and I dont think I would ever change!

+1 lovely cartridge and low presure you can shoot them in every gun with every choke 

[Whitebridges]

Thanks for that gents.

I’m more than fed up with PW these days . I’ve been posting on here since 2005 and it’s time to quit.

So goodnight and all the best.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Whitebridges

[motty]

26 minutes ago, Whitebridges said:

Thanks for that gents.

I’m more than fed up with PW these days . I’ve been posting on here since 2005 and it’s time to quit.

So goodnight and all the best.

There really is no need for that. Debate and differences of opinion are very healthy.

[ClemFandango]

9 hours ago, motty said:

The use of steel gaining pace? Not sure. It is a requirement for non toxic shot to be used on wildfowl in England, and steel is the cheapest. Some people use it on pigeons, too, as it is very effective. It has its advantages over lead, but also some disadvantages. It is also suitable to be used in probably 95% of all guns in circulation. I will not accept that steel shot ruins guns. I have not read a single post from anyone on this site that has reported such damage to their guns due to steel shot usage. Strange, don't you think?

I wouldn't want to "trash" any sportsman. I can't see how that could be implied.

I don't shoot a lot or any steel, since the lead ban I have mostly used Tungsten Matrix for my wildfowling as I got a HEAP not long after it became available. 

 

Pity because if I's have just kept it all and sold it now I probably could retire... Anyway, it's running out and I am looking into loading other types of shot, so this is a genuine question, you mention that steel has benefits over lead as well as disadvantages, what, in your opinion are the advantages? 

[Paul1440]

10 hours ago, motty said:

The use of steel gaining pace? Not sure. It is a requirement for non toxic shot to be used on wildfowl in England, and steel is the cheapest. Some people use it on pigeons, too, as it is very effective. It has its advantages over lead, but also some disadvantages. It is also suitable to be used in probably 95% of all guns in circulation. I will not accept that steel shot ruins guns. I have not read a single post from anyone on this site that has reported such damage to their guns due to steel shot usage. Strange, don't you think?

I wouldn't want to "trash" any sportsman. I can't see how that could be implied.

2 of the Wildfowlers in the north who have shot stefl through their autos have had damage due to steel.

1 has has to scrap theirs as the action developed stress fracture. The other has damagdd choke (this one I've seen) the barrel has expanded although not by very much and it's hard to spot. However the choke tube won't fit into the barrel on my gun which is the same.

These were older 3" non steel proof guns using HP loads. Perhaps using the standatd steel would have been ok but there's a warning in there somewhere. 

[motty]

2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

I don't shoot a lot or any steel, since the lead ban I have mostly used Tungsten Matrix for my wildfowling as I got a HEAP not long after it became available. 

 

Pity because if I's have just kept it all and sold it now I probably could retire... Anyway, it's running out and I am looking into loading other types of shot, so this is a genuine question, you mention that steel has benefits over lead as well as disadvantages, what, in your opinion are the advantages? 

The main advantages as I see them, are the increase in pellets per ounce versus lead (for multiple strikes) and the non deformation of the pellets, meaning no fliers and good patterns. The last point is also probably equally true for tungsten matrix and hevi shot etc.

[motty]

1 hour ago, Paul1440 said:

2 of the Wildfowlers in the north who have shot stefl through their autos have had damage due to steel.

1 has has to scrap theirs as the action developed stress fracture. The other has damagdd choke (this one I've seen) the barrel has expanded although not by very much and it's hard to spot. However the choke tube won't fit into the barrel on my gun which is the same.

These were older 3" non steel proof guns using HP loads. Perhaps using the standatd steel would have been ok but there's a warning in there somewhere. 

Fair enough, but it still is not exactly enough to prove that steel damages guns. The only gun that i have seen with major choke damage happened when using lead. The choke had a big chunk missing and the barrel was badly bulged.

A stress fracture to an action, doesn't really sound like it is steel shot related necessarily.

[Kraai]

1 hour ago, Paul1440 said:

2 of the Wildfowlers in the north who have shot stefl through their autos have had damage due to steel.

1 has has to scrap theirs as the action developed stress fracture. The other has damagdd choke (this one I've seen) the barrel has expanded although not by very much and it's hard to spot. However the choke tube won't fit into the barrel on my gun which is the same.

These were older 3" non steel proof guns using HP loads. Perhaps using the standatd steel would have been ok but there's a warning in there somewhere. 

Maybe the choke have come loose 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Kraai

[ClemFandango]

25 minutes ago, motty said:

The main advantages as I see them, are the increase in pellets per ounce versus lead (for multiple strikes) and the non deformation of the pellets, meaning no fliers and good patterns. The last point is also probably equally true for tungsten matrix and hevi shot etc.

Thanks for the response.

I assume that the increase in pellets per ounce is because steel is less dense but does this mean more pellets in the cartridge? surely they still occupy the same volume as lead pellets of the same size but don't have the density so the trade off is that you either have to increase shot size or chamber pressure to increase speed. 

 

I think the increased pressure is the issue with damaging guns in that people shoot a steel magnum cartridge through a gun that isn't proofed for that or through too tighter choke causing barrel bulging, but that's the fault of the person not the cartridge. 

1 hour ago, Paul1440 said:

2 of the Wildfowlers in the north who have shot stefl through their autos have had damage due to steel.

1 has has to scrap theirs as the action developed stress fracture. The other has damagdd choke (this one I've seen) the barrel has expanded although not by very much and it's hard to spot. However the choke tube won't fit into the barrel on my gun which is the same.

These were older 3" non steel proof guns using HP loads. Perhaps using the standatd steel would have been ok but there's a warning in there somewhere. 

both of those issues are improper cartridge choice for the gun. 

it's like shooting a 3 inch cartridge through a 2 3/4 inch chambered gun. 

it's not the fault of steel cartridges really, it's more the fault of the person who put a steel magnum load in a gun that wasn't proofed for it. 

[motty]

4 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

Thanks for the response.

I assume that the increase in pellets per ounce is because steel is less dense but does this mean more pellets in the cartridge? surely they still occupy the same volume as lead pellets of the same size but don't have the density so the trade off is that you either have to increase shot size or chamber pressure to increase speed. 

 

I think the increased pressure is the issue with damaging guns in that people shoot a steel magnum cartridge through a gun that isn't proofed for that or through too tighter choke causing barrel bulging, but that's the fault of the person not the cartridge. 

I think that is the generally held belief, though it is a bit of a myth. A gun doesn't necessarily need to be steel proofed in order to use steel. I bet almost all guns would pass the test. I also believe too tight a choke is difficult unless you are being silly. I must admit to being cautious with my fixed full/full choked non steel proofed o/u ten. The biggest steel pellets I have put through it are 4mm 1s.

[Paul1440]

1 hour ago, ClemFandango said:

Thanks for the response.

I assume that the increase in pellets per ounce is because steel is less dense but does this mean more pellets in the cartridge? surely they still occupy the same volume as lead pellets of the same size but don't have the density so the trade off is that you either have to increase shot size or chamber pressure to increase speed. 

 

I think the increased pressure is the issue with damaging guns in that people shoot a steel magnum cartridge through a gun that isn't proofed for that or through too tighter choke causing barrel bulging, but that's the fault of the person not the cartridge. 

both of those issues are improper cartridge choice for the gun. 

it's like shooting a 3 inch cartridge through a 2 3/4 inch chambered gun. 

it's not the fault of steel cartridges really, it's more the fault of the person who put a steel magnum load in a gun that wasn't proofed for it. 

I agree. Stick to what the proof house tells you and everything should be ok. 

The problem is that people (some) think they know better than the Experts and shove anything in expecting a good outcome.  

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

23 minutes ago, Paul1440 said:

I agree. Stick to what the proof house tells you and everything should be ok. 

The problem is that people (some) think they know better than the Experts and shove anything in expecting a good outcome.  

 

Who is that aimed at?

[ClemFandango]

12 hours ago, motty said:

I think that is the generally held belief, though it is a bit of a myth. A gun doesn't necessarily need to be steel proofed in order to use steel. I bet almost all guns would pass the test. I also believe too tight a choke is difficult unless you are being silly. I must admit to being cautious with my fixed full/full choked non steel proofed o/u ten. The biggest steel pellets I have put through it are 4mm 1s.

I suppose proof is basically a certification that a gun has once stood up to a particular pressure under test conditions.

I would have thought you can get away with more through a 10 bore than a 12 as the diameter of the barrel would lead to less constriction of the shot column and therefore less pressure in the barrell but i'd happily be told I am wrong. 

That said I spent quite a bit of time looking for a second Gunnark Kestrel (or Greylag) 10 bore earlier in the year as I had intended having the chokes on the one I have now opened out but I wanted the option of having a full and full gun for where I still use lead. I looked at several and the barrells on them were bulged just below the choke, I assumed that this was people putting heavy steel loads through them. 

[motty]

1 hour ago, ClemFandango said:

I suppose proof is basically a certification that a gun has once stood up to a particular pressure under test conditions.

I would have thought you can get away with more through a 10 bore than a 12 as the diameter of the barrel would lead to less constriction of the shot column and therefore less pressure in the barrell but i'd happily be told I am wrong. 

That said I spent quite a bit of time looking for a second Gunnark Kestrel (or Greylag) 10 bore earlier in the year as I had intended having the chokes on the one I have now opened out but I wanted the option of having a full and full gun for where I still use lead. I looked at several and the barrells on them were bulged just below the choke, I assumed that this was people putting heavy steel loads through them. 

I have a Kestrel 10. It has in tact chokes. I have fired a few Rhinos etc through without bother. I do wonder if some weird home loads have been used in some guns. I would imagine a 42gm load of steel F @ 1600fps would not do a fixed choke 10 too much good.

[ClemFandango]

7 hours ago, motty said:

I have a Kestrel 10. It has in tact chokes. I have fired a few Rhinos etc through without bother. I do wonder if some weird home loads have been used in some guns. I would imagine a 42gm load of steel F @ 1600fps would not do a fixed choke 10 too much good.

Exactly, that's why I am considering having my kestrel bored out to try steel or maybe even hevi-shot loads. 

[Guest cookoff013]

there is alot of information here, but i`d also like to throw in a 10 euro cents worth of advice.

the HP cartridge choice is a double egded sword, if you check over some italian manufacturers data, the pressures for this HP loadings (or steel shot rated shotguns) are a buiscuit over the 740 bar standard limit. the manufacturers load up to the 740bar limit, (or near 800bar where most powders can perform near adequate), and have the shells pass HP rating because shells naturally vary in pressure. the statistics or the s2n is to predict the top 2.5-% pressures of a production lot / stats run. so having shells with HP on them often are no more pressure than the saami pressure standards of american shells. i infact have proofed a series of shells for HP, and the average was 500bar, so way below standard MAP too. it is however was a legal documentation. "I The Cookoff submit this shell to pressure test in the second / upper HP tier of proof" and the proofhouse replied with a test sheet and stats run under the second HP tier. i purchased HP testing, and thats what i got regardless of whatever pressures i got. so those shells are hp safe. (and standard, but thats here or there.).

home loaders can reload up to the limit and its safe for the better part, but when people ignore the s2n and stats runs that say "do not use this ammunition" and load anyway are more than likley to damage the gun by putting excess stresses on the guns action, thats the upper pressures that potential could be in the production run of shells. 

here is an example, take 2 shells. i home load a new shot type, "cookoffium" the first shot goes ftttt.. 10 bar, the second shot goes Kaboom 1500 bar. the average, says its safe, or below the PTMAX which is 1050. the shell run got an average of 755 bar. but the load is a total failure because 50% of the shells are over pressure. the more shells tested the better the predictability of the load/ 

most if not all homeloaders do not take this into consideration and averages are it. thats the problem. 

so say i found this data online for this cookoffium shot, its got a density of 300kg / cm3, and the afore mentioned pressure is 755bar. thats quite low, maybe i`ll stoke it up a tad to 1050bar. thats where you get severe problems because the shells now 2000bar or a billion bar..... 

 

i still cant fathom why the naysayers havent berated tungsten to death. it is way-way harder than steel shot. way way harder than gunbarrel steel too. the same warnings for steel shot are mirrored for tungsten (hevishot). why isnt anyone poo-pooing that? the new / newer nontoxic shot are different from the classic tungsten or hevishot (tungsten, nickel, whatever). that is not discussed either. its just "barry mate down the pub wrecked his gun using shteel shot" and we find out on the internet some weird pictures of the grand canyon, that was gauged out of the bore, the choke forcing cone and even the barrels facebook page got damaged by steel shot.

we even hear now and again that lead shot is dangerous to guns, infact the interwebs is loaded with pictures of guns in bits. where some numpty has alledgedly made some "mistake"

maybe its me, i do tell people to research more into steel shot / ballistics, but with the internet, everyone has a voice  and an opinion. you are advised to match your firearm with its choice of ammunition. just research it. once you read alot you can easily identify the truth from chaff.

[Smokersmith]

25 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

i still cant fathom why the naysayers havent berated tungsten to death.

Easy ... it's too expensive for the masses to use on a regular basis, and would equate to a very small percentage of shells sold over the counter today.

Less use = less issues = less berating ..... there's another equation for you

 

[Guest cookoff013]

hey, thats probably true.....

never even thought about that.

[grahamch]

Kent/Gamebore have developed new big shot bismuth loads in the states in 3, 2 and BB in loads up to 3.5 inch.

As per usual we wont be seeing them in the UK. 

High time a gunshop or dealer brought some in independantly and let us try some proper alternatives to steel. 

When l run out of itm and hevishot will pack up fowling.

 

[Guest cookoff013]

8 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Kent/Gamebore have developed new big shot bismuth loads in the states in 3, 2 and BB in loads up to 3.5 inch.

As per usual we wont be seeing them in the UK. 

High time a gunshop or dealer brought some in independantly and let us try some proper alternatives to steel. 

When l run out of itm and hevishot will pack up fowling.

 

thats a bit extreme

 

[grahamch]

21 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

thats a bit extreme

Have tried 3 or 4 makes of steel RC, Eley, Gamebore and Hull on duck, pheasant, crows and geese and not had a clean kill.

l wont shoot steel due to that so will really have no alternative to packing up unless bismuth goose loads are available