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Boris Threatens Reprisals Against Russia.


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2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Litvenenko was rubbed out on Putin’s instruction? Can we agree on that?

There, a very unique and state sponsored method of assignation was used - polonium. That took 3 weeks to kill him and he was able to give the police a full statement, they in turn checked the details and names against travel logs and accurately piece everything together.

So, they’ve done it before?

I see there’s a few still seeing the walrus on the hippo. 

I did, and why did I do that ?
Because it seems like a plausible explanation when you take everything the media tells you as gospel, who in turn are given whatever information from the authorities (government)

Now heres the issue, I get a sneaky suspicion that sometimes our government doesnt always tell the truth, I know, tin foil hat and all that business :yahoo:

So now Im thinking, did they kill Litvenyenko ?
It was all nice and public how he denounced Putin from his hospital bed as he lay dying, dramatic pictures beamed round the world to show what a monster the czar is.
They even put a program on telly about him last night to prove that hes a nihilist power hungry maniac, who kills everyone who gets in his way.
It was on the BBC so it all must be true :rolleyes:

Believe what you will, call me a nutter if it makes you feel better.
But theres nothing we can do about the situation at all.
Whatever diplomatic BS that transpires now will be the result that they wanted it to be, manoeuvred into position just as expected.

And you will support it because they told you to.

7 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Come on gents we, the general public are lied to, mislead and misdirected all the time! By everyone with an agenda! You never know who's telling the truth, so speculate all you want........you'll only ever hear what those imparting the information want you to.

We the general public are treated like mushrooms........kept in the dark and fed excreta.

 

Exactly :good:

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I love the way that the amorphous statement of "our government lies to us all the time" somehow justifies the improbable, and with the improbable comes all the conspiracy theories.

I am wondering what set of circumstances would have to arise for you to accept Putin is responsible for state sponsored assassinations?

Do you accept that in all probability (i.e. the most "likely" outcome) is that Putin had his hand on this and the assassinations of the others listed?

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Innocent until proven guilty! If our government (or anyone else) has proof that Russia or Putin "what done it" then publish the proof! Probable, possible or maybe isn't proof!

They won't......either because they haven't got the proof or they don't want the general public to know what proof they have, because if that proof were incontrovertible, the government would have massive public pressure to act decisively upon it.........and that would deny them a bargaining chip and consequently negate their ability to reach a mutually beneficial  'deal' in the future.

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1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Come on gents we, the general public are lied to, mislead and misdirected all the time! By everyone with an agenda! You never know who's telling the truth, so speculate all you want........you'll only ever hear what those imparting the information want you to.

We the general public are treated like mushrooms........kept in the dark and fed excreta.

 

Spot on

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30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I love the way that the amorphous statement of "our government lies to us all the time" somehow justifies the improbable, and with the improbable comes all the conspiracy theories.

I am wondering what set of circumstances would have to arise for you to accept Putin is responsible for state sponsored assassinations?

Do you accept that in all probability (i.e. the most "likely" outcome) is that Putin had his hand on this and the assassinations of the others listed?

Why is it an amorphous statement ? Do they not (as I said) occasionally tell the odd porkie ?
And 'somehow justifies the improbable ' ? Does that mean the improbable is not ever possible ?
We are talking about espionage and government agendas, you know the stuff you read about in fiction, or do you think thats all based on conspiracy theories ?

Its their job to mislead, they have a skillset and budget to do that job, and do it well.

Ive never said that Russia has never done state sponsored assassinations , Im pretty sure it has, but probably no more than us or America has.
Or do you think James  Bond is an accurate representation of how it is:lol:

Look at the similarities between Litvenyenko and Skripal, the 'evidence' that is used to categorically 'prove' that the Russian government is behind it is that both compounds can only come from Russia.
Which if you have a modicum of intelligence, you will know is a LIE.
Both compounds can be made, and the UK in particular leads the field in nerve gas production and research, whereas radioactive isotopes including polonium were made by the Curies in their lab 120 years ago.
Probable cause ?
So Putin hates these ex spies enough to chase them down and publicly poison them, risking collateral damage to British civilians and leaving this trail of 'proof ' back to him, and only him, because no one except Russia can make these poisons, leaving them plenty of time to die, and make public condemnations of his regime just before the elections and coveted world cup ?
A few more days and Mr Skripal will be sat up ready to talk about it methinks :yes:

Or...The western powers ,that have great difficulty with Mr Putin, for a variety of reasons ,Syria, Ukraine, strong leadership ect, would like to see him discredited and his national and international reputation lowered.
Make your own mind up, it wont make a jot of difference anyway.
Believe what the news tells you if it makes you feel better.
But remember, just because someone says its a conspiracy theory doesnt automatically mean it has no credibility.

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I don’t think the Russians care what we think. Their current regime isn't too far removed ( if at all ) from the gangs they clamped down on not too long ago. It’s just a bigger gang with the title of government and all the empowerment that that entails, to lend it a smear of credence. 

As I said; it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. 

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3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I did, and why did I do that ?
Because it seems like a plausible explanation when you take everything the media tells you as gospel, who in turn are given whatever information from the authorities (government)

Now heres the issue, I get a sneaky suspicion that sometimes our government doesnt always tell the truth, I know, tin foil hat and all that business :yahoo:

So now Im thinking, did they kill Litvenyenko ?
It was all nice and public how he denounced Putin from his hospital bed as he lay dying, dramatic pictures beamed round the world to show what a monster the czar is.
They even put a program on telly about him last night to prove that hes a nihilist power hungry maniac, who kills everyone who gets in his way.
It was on the BBC so it all must be true :rolleyes:

Believe what you will, call me a nutter if it makes you feel better.
But theres nothing we can do about the situation at all.
Whatever diplomatic BS that transpires now will be the result that they wanted it to be, manoeuvred into position just as expected.

And you will support it because they told you to.

Exactly :good:

:good:

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t think the Russians care what we think. Their current regime isn't too far removed ( if at all ) from the gangs they clamped down on not too long ago. It’s just a bigger gang with the title of government and all the empowerment that that entails, to lend it a smear of credence. 

As I said; it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. 

1) How do you know this about Russia ? 

2) Correct ;)

Methinks any minute now they'll be showing us a picture of some blue meth crystals as proof only Russia can make this particular nerve agent, you know, like those black and white aerial pics proved WMD storage. 

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To be honest the chap and his daughter were a soft target, and seemingly of little importance. The point is that [if you don't have a tin hat on] this was carried out because right now we are in another cold war with Russia, and we have been for some time. There has been a theatre in Ukraine, and there is an even more blatant one in Syria. Right now there is the imminent obliteration in Afrin - where Syrian (Russian) airspace is not being policed, the American allies there are going to be obliterated by Turkey (and their airpower) and jihadists, and there is nothing the US can do to stop it.

Any land that Turkey doesn't capture will  be seceded to Assad and Russia, without them having to fire a shot. There are cyber allegations, and even election interference that is alleged. As others have said. This is just another message and a prod from Russia,  and goodness it's got to be a pretty reasonable deterrent the UK can't protect individuals within their own country from foreign agents. Time and time again Russia has seemingly out-manouvered the America (and its primary satellite UK, and to a lesser extent Europe). He has caught those in power flatfooted and is not afraid to play dirty.  Everything is ratcheted up, and on the current trajectory who knows what will happen in coming years, but it'll not be good.

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4 minutes ago, Teal said:

To be honest the chap and his daughter were a soft target, and seemingly of little importance. The point is that [if you don't have a tin hat on] this was carried out because right now we are in another cold war with Russia, and we have been for some time. There has been a theatre in Ukraine, and there is an even more blatant one in Syria. Right now there is the imminent obliteration in Afrin - where Syrian (Russian) airspace is not being policed, the American allies there are going to be obliterated by Turkey (and their airpower) and jihadists, and there is nothing the US can do to stop it. Any land that Turkey doesn't capture will  be seceded to Assad and Russia, without them having to fire a shot. There are cyber allegations, and even election interference that is alleged. As others have said. This is just another message and a prod from Russia,  and goodness it's got to be a pretty reasonable deterrent the UK can't protect individuals within their own country from foreign agents. Time and time again Russia has seemingly out-manouvered the America (and its primary satellite UK, and to a lesser extent Europe). He has caught those in power flatfooted and is not afraid to play dirty. 

Thats one way of looking at it.
Or you can look at it another way, all the ways that Putin has out smarted the west, is this some kind of retaliation against that?
We will probably never know, just see what happens next and try and draw some conclusions from that.

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The murican allies in Ghouta who are being routed and bombed out by Syria/Iran/Russia are Islamist terrorists, the exact same ones that plan and execute mass murder on European cities, they're the ones who slice off 12 year old boys heads in front of their mothers and cameras, cage and burn humans and eat their hearts raw, the White Helmets are a US devised propaganda construct who stage fake Assad atrocities and get Oscars in return. 

It is very true what Teal says, we are in a rather hot "cold" war with Russia, the constant fake news, false flags, misinformation and demonisation of Assad and his allies is designed to deceive the public into going along with unabated hostilities. Putin has time and again outplayed his enemies, those enemies will get increasingly more desperate to do something. 

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5 hours ago, Teal said:

To be honest the chap and his daughter were a soft target, and seemingly of little importance. The point is that [if you don't have a tin hat on] this was carried out because right now we are in another cold war with Russia, and we have been for some time. There has been a theatre in Ukraine, and there is an even more blatant one in Syria. Right now there is the imminent obliteration in Afrin - where Syrian (Russian) airspace is not being policed, the American allies there are going to be obliterated by Turkey (and their airpower) and jihadists, and there is nothing the US can do to stop it.

Any land that Turkey doesn't capture will  be seceded to Assad and Russia, without them having to fire a shot. There are cyber allegations, and even election interference that is alleged. As others have said. This is just another message and a prod from Russia,  and goodness it's got to be a pretty reasonable deterrent the UK can't protect individuals within their own country from foreign agents. Time and time again Russia has seemingly out-manouvered the America (and its primary satellite UK, and to a lesser extent Europe). He has caught those in power flatfooted and is not afraid to play dirty.  Everything is ratcheted up, and on the current trajectory who knows what will happen in coming years, but it'll not be good.

Yep, this is how I see it too. Putin answers to no one; he must be having a right old laugh back in the Kremlin. :yes:

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RT News

“It looks like British secret services are complicit in it,” Kovalev went on. “[Defectors] are fully under surveillance … the secret services are monitoring them, they know their whereabouts and schedules. And then you have such strange events happen in a row.”

Kovalev, who led the FSB from 1996 until 1998, said he believes that a series of assassination attempts targeting defectors in the UK makes him think that the British “scapegoat this or that traitor after having utilized him to the maximum extent, and then say the Russians did it.”

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The gas used was ancient and wasn't specifically 'Russian'. It was Soviet and was produced in Uzbekistan. The lowdown from Peter North..

" ....After the breakup of the Soviet Union for a time, control was lost of formerly secure Soviet facilities, including Nukus Institute, which seems to have been abandoned in 1992/3, after the Russian Federation came into being. 

At that point, it would appear, any amount of agent could have been sold or dispersed, its destination and purchasers unknown. So desperate was the situation that the facility was, on the invitation of the Uzbek government, taken over by the United States - which, we must now assume, could have acquired samples of the agent." http://www.eureferendum.com

In other words, unless Mrs May and the media have additional evidence that they're keeping secret, nobody has a FACTUAL clue who let off this gas at all. Of course it might have been the Russians, but then it could just as easily been people wanting public opinion to believe exactly that. Sherlock Holmes had the dog that didn't bark. We have the dogs that DO bark. When, despite there being no evidence, all the usual suspects in the media and all the politicians are baying with one voice and 'assessing options' and such like, there's a  smell of rat in the air. 

 

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When this first happened there was not much comment apart from oh golly gosh.

After a week or so our leaders decided that we were not outraged enough and ramped up the warnings etc and bollarding of premises and cars and things to suit their rhetoric.

I think it's possible the Russians never done it.

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2 hours ago, BRYAN3 said:

When this first happened there was not much comment apart from oh golly gosh.

After a week or so our leaders decided that we were not outraged enough and ramped up the warnings etc and bollarding of premises and cars and things to suit their rhetoric.

I think it's possible the Russians never done it.

I would have thought that as soon as it became clear a nerve toxin had been used, which if I remember was about 24-48 hrs after the couple were found.
A haz team from Porton Down would have sealed off the areas affected and started hosing down the route they took, houses cars ect, with a partial evacuation for the sake of safety ?
I know nerve agents have a short effective 'life' but surely you wouldnt gamble with civilian lives.
They blamed the Russians in less than 12 hours, virtually as soon as they knew the identity of Skripal.

The other issue is how effective the toxin was, you get the idea that contact is fatal within seconds, but this seems to have taken some time to work ?
Its possible I suppose that the stuff used had 'gone off' or not mixed correctly (Its a binary agent I believe)
So you have possible scenarios of.
Did they really mean to kill him ?
Did the assassins know how to use it correctly ?
Why use an old toxin that supposedly hasnt been manufactured for 30 years, and could be passed its 'use by ' date ?
Why not just spray it through his letterbox, in his face, use the old polonium in his tea trick ?

People keep saying 'Putin wants us to know its him' excuse.
So why doesnt he just say, 'Yeah I killed the traitor, whatcha gonna do about it ?'
Because thats what the media seem pretty confident hes saying anyway.

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44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I would have thought that as soon as it became clear a nerve toxin had been used, which if I remember was about 24-48 hrs after the couple were found.
A haz team from Porton Down would have sealed off the areas affected and started hosing down the route they took, houses cars ect, with a partial evacuation for the sake of safety ?
I know nerve agents have a short effective 'life' but surely you wouldnt gamble with civilian lives.
They blamed the Russians in less than 12 hours, virtually as soon as they knew the identity of Skripal.

The other issue is how effective the toxin was, you get the idea that contact is fatal within seconds, but this seems to have taken some time to work ?
Its possible I suppose that the stuff used had 'gone off' or not mixed correctly (Its a binary agent I believe)
So you have possible scenarios of.
Did they really mean to kill him ?
Did the assassins know how to use it correctly ?
Why use an old toxin that supposedly hasnt been manufactured for 30 years, and could be passed its 'use by ' date ?
Why not just spray it through his letterbox, in his face, use the old polonium in his tea trick ?

People keep saying 'Putin wants us to know its him' excuse.
So why doesnt he just say, 'Yeah I killed the traitor, whatcha gonna do about it ?'
Because thats what the media seem pretty confident hes saying anyway.

An admission of guilt? Where’s the threat in that? Once he does that he can’t claim victimisation from the West. 

 He knows that we know, and that’s all that’s needed from his point of view. It’s not what you know it’s what you can prove. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Scully said:

An admission of guilt? Where’s the threat in that? Once he does that he can’t claim victimisation from the West. 

 He knows that we know, and that’s all that’s needed from his point of view. It’s not what you know it’s what you can prove. 

 

Thats just the point Scully, hes been tried , judged and sentenced whether hes done it or not.

It doesnt matter what you can prove, hes done it and thats that, as far as the world is concerned.
He can claim as much victimisation as he likes ,nobody in the west is going to give a flying fig, hes the bogey man !
You remember the witches and ducking stools ? You drown youre innocent, you survive you get hanged or burned , You cannot beat the system.

Im pretty sure Putin is not a nice man, he will have sent many a man to their deaths.
But I can guarantee one thing.
There are tens of millions of people in their graves, who would  otherwise be walking around today.
And all because they believed the lies their government told them.

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18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats just the point Scully, hes been tried , judged and sentenced whether hes done it or not.

It doesnt matter what you can prove, hes done it and thats that, as far as the world is concerned.
He can claim as much victimisation as he likes ,nobody in the west is going to give a flying fig, hes the bogey man !
You remember the witches and ducking stools ? You drown youre innocent, you survive you get hanged or burned , You cannot beat the system.

Im pretty sure Putin is not a nice man, he will have sent many a man to their deaths.
But I can guarantee one thing.
There are tens of millions of people in their graves, who would  otherwise be walking around today.
And all because they believed the lies their government told them.

Eh? 

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36 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep he lost me on that one. 

Double Eh Eh 

It would help if you said which bit, maybe I got a bit deep with the ducking stool :lol:

But basically, I believe we  have tried to maneuver Russia into a position where they are damned if they do, and damned if they dont (admit it)

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