The Salisbury poison gas incident.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Who knows though?  With Litvenenko they had the perpetrator on CCTV and even named him. Well that proves it then !

The thing is this - Putin doesn’t care what we think or do and considers us weak (as per his last speeches). If you think of all the other stuff that goes on (ships in the channel, fighter jets in our air space etc) it can’t be unexpected. Why cant they sail up and down the channel in their decrepit obsolete warships, its an international shipping lane ? And the airspace probe, is decades old, we do it too.

Moreover the recent death will be extremely popular in Russia - this chap was their Kim Philby.   Hardly, tell the truth, had you heard of Skripal before this ?

I think this is working well for Putin - he gets to let the world and his country know that he did it and he gets to let us know he can get a super weapon to our shores undetected. Never doubted it for a moment, I should think 90 % of the population could care less either.

Does he care we’re thinking about not turning up to a football workdcup we’d never stand a chance of winning  Maybe a small loss of revenue, but no ,I wouldnt have thought hed lose sleep over it.

Incidentally they had a minister on LBC saying that the sanctions implemented following Litvenenko killed us economically and it’s really not somewhere the government would want to go to again. Exactly, which leads onto..

17 minutes ago, Beardo said:

interesting piece in the Guardian about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/spy-poisoning-why-putin-may-have-engineered-gruesome-calling-card?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

About the only thing thats accurate in this article is the fact that, if we got too 'tough' with Russia, could we rely on our allies to back us up, the simple answer is NO.

The US doesnt really want to get too confrontational, the EU , despite showing 'concern' would likely drop us as soon as it got serious (read that as, as soon as Russia threatened to switch the gas off ) which would leave us isolated (The EU would love that more) 

And for any of you who think 'Russia cant bully us, were a superpower with a massive army and nukes' They can ,were not , we havnt, and we cant fire a single nuke without the Yanks letting us, and thats only going to happen if the US gets attacked.
So whatever pathetic threats Ms May makes, will be empty, she knows that, Putin knows that, the whole friggin world knows it.

Ill give you an analogy.
3 men are in a sealed room, but there are windows, and there is a crowd of onlookers peering in.
The lights go out, its pitch black, no one can see anything.
30 seconds later, the lights come on, and one of the men is apparently lifeless on the floor.
Without a seconds hesitation, one of the 2 remaining men points at the other, and exclaims to the watching crowd.
' He killed him'
Who do you think is responsible ?

 

 

[Mungler]

I have come to the conclusion that you are crackers.

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I have come to the conclusion that you are crackers.

Thats your prerogative, and if youre happy with the governments explanation of events, then thats fine too.

Im not.

[Mungler]

Could you ever envisage a set of circumstances where Putin was responsible?

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Could you ever envisage a set of circumstances where Putin was responsible?

Of course, and as Ive said, he is more than capable of taking out past and present enemies.
I am no fan of his.
Just not this time, the way it was reported, the instant accusation, the 'concrete evidence' that makes him supposedly 'directly responsible' plus the speed at which we have come to the decision, just doesnt add up.
May summoned the ambassador to explain how a Russian design nerve agent came to be on British soil, the Russians asked for a sample to check it.
No sample was given ,and the ambassador didnt turn up, so the Russians, and Putin specifically are  guilty ?

 

[markm]

I was under the impression that the nuclear deterrent is 100% under operational control of the uk government so when a sub is fully loaded at sea it is ours to do as we please. 

Doesn’t the prime mister have to decide on what the captain does if we are wiped out?

 

I thought USA supplied a servicing to the weapons, but that’s it. 

 

If if this is not the case, I’d enjoy reading the evidence.   

 

 

[panoma1]

8 minutes ago, markm said:

I was under the impression that the nuclear deterrent is 100% under operational control of the uk government so when a sub is fully loaded at sea it is ours to do as we please. 

Doesn’t the prime mister have to decide on what the captain does if we are wiped out?

 

I thought USA supplied a servicing to the weapons, but that’s it. 

 

If if this is not the case, I’d enjoy reading the evidence.   

 

 

Best hope Jezza doesn't get into Downing Street then eh?.......or we'll be well ******!

[Rewulf]

42 minutes ago, markm said:

I was under the impression that the nuclear deterrent is 100% under operational control of the uk government so when a sub is fully loaded at sea it is ours to do as we please. 

Doesn’t the prime mister have to decide on what the captain does if we are wiped out?

 

I thought USA supplied a servicing to the weapons, but that’s it. 

 

If if this is not the case, I’d enjoy reading the evidence.   

 

 

There are conflicting stories about this, but technically control rests with the UK ,so yes I was wrong to say we couldnt launch independently .

This

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmdfence/986/986we13.htm

And this make interesting reading though

https://www.quora.com/Can-the-UK-unilaterally-launch-its-own-nuclear-weapons-Ive-heard-that-the-UK-is-not-actually-in-control-of-its-own-nuclear-deterrent-and-cannot-launch-missiles-without-some-kind-of-US-approval-Is-this-true

Sorry for the fake news 

[strimmer_13]

*** the news chopper is over head and the army is up the road now. 

Apparently were being warned to stay inside. Nobody told me or knocked on my door.

[Hamster]

11 hours ago, Scully said:

So the Russians haven’t been assassinating their own former spies for whatever reason?  So who has ( and is ) been doing it? Please tell us. 

You're quoting me out of context but please don't stop, it makes me feel good knowing you're waving your arms incoherently trying to make sense of things.  That remark was in response to the childlike deductions of a member who deemed it credible that assassinations are carried out by Putin to bolster patriotic  fervour leading to his cleaning up at the polls. Utterly laughable regardless of whether you happen to agree, can't think of any leaders that happen to enjoy more patriotic majority approval as it is, can you ? 

I do accept that all governments carry out covert killings of all sorts of people, it's just that the evidence for this particular one is not at all persuasive. Russia has nothing to gain but near universal international condemnation as well as further sanctions and all this for a nobody and his wholly innocent daughter ? What a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use "military grade" substances that fail to even kill the intended victim. 

[ordnance]

Quote

What a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use "military grade" substances that fail to even kill the intended victim. 

 

I would say they are as good as dead being kept alive by machines. Like all poisons it depends how much they were exposed to, do you know how much they were exposed to. ? Even Russians can get things wrong beleave it or not. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by ordnance

[panoma1]

30 minutes ago, Hamster said:

You're quoting me out of context but please don't stop, it makes me feel good knowing you're waving your arms incoherently trying to make sense of things.  That remark was in response to the childlike deductions of a member who deemed it credible that assassinations are carried out by Putin to bolster patriotic  fervour leading to his cleaning up at the polls. Utterly laughable regardless of whether you happen to agree, can't think of any leaders that happen to enjoy more patriotic majority approval as it is, can you ? 

I do accept that all governments carry out covert killings of all sorts of people, it's just that the evidence for this particular one is not at all persuasive. Russia has nothing to gain but near universal international condemnation as well as further sanctions and all this for a nobody and his wholly innocent daughter ? What a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use "military grade" substances that fail to even kill the intended victim. 

"Wholly innocent" His daughter was fresh in from Russia.....how do we know she was not the intended victim?

[Hamster]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

"Wholly innocent" His daughter was fresh in from Russia.....how do we know she was not the intended victim?

To be fair I don't know anything about her at all, just assuming that she wouldn't have been a hot potato otherwise how could she have travelled so freely !? 

[panoma1]

Just now, Hamster said:

To be fair I don't know anything about her at all, just assuming that she wouldn't have been a hot potato otherwise how could she have travelled so freely !? 

That's the point.....it's all speculation.....the public don't know anything really, just what the authrities want us to know!

[Scully]

31 minutes ago, Hamster said:

You're quoting me out of context but please don't stop, it makes me feel good knowing you're waving your arms incoherently trying to make sense of things.  That remark was in response to the childlike deductions of a member who deemed it credible that assassinations are carried out by Putin to bolster patriotic  fervour leading to his cleaning up at the polls. Utterly laughable regardless of whether you happen to agree, can't think of any leaders that happen to enjoy more patriotic majority approval as it is, can you ? 

I do accept that all governments carry out covert killings of all sorts of people, it's just that the evidence for this particular one is not at all persuasive. Russia has nothing to gain but near universal international condemnation as well as further sanctions and all this for a nobody and his wholly innocent daughter ? What a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use "military grade" substances that fail to even kill the intended victim. 

I'm not sure if you can wave your arms 'incoherently', but either way, rest assured I'm not waving my arms trying to make sense of things.   I'm under no illusion as to who I think is responsible as it makes perfect sense to me, but just for sheer entertainment value.........if it is 'a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use military grade substances that fail to even kill the intended victim', then who do you suggest did it? 

[Hamster]

17 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm not sure if you can wave your arms 'incoherently', but either way, rest assured I'm not waving my arms trying to make sense of things.   I'm under no illusion as to who I think is responsible as it makes perfect sense to me, but just for sheer entertainment value.........if it is 'a preposterous suggestion that a state such as Russia would use military grade substances that fail to even kill the intended victim', then who do you suggest did it? 

That's simple, his enemies, he has made plenty of world leaders look like simpletons from Crimea to Ukraine to Syria. He defeated Isis when others were (and still are) feeding it and pretending there were no targets to engage , he saved Syria from falling into Islamist terrorists hands. He has potentially scuppered further planned bloodshed in the middle east and has openly told the West and America to do one leaving them in no doubt whatsoever that his country will respond militarily against aggression to his country or his allies. I'd hate his guts if I were murica, Ukraine, UK, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia (they'd be too stupid to pull this off mind) and no doubt one or three more besides. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Hamster

[Bazooka Joe]

Listening to a Russian on the news the other day he said this is not Sarin or VX, it's military grade novichok.

It's use would have to be sanctioned by the highest authority which is the Kremlin itself, no one else could authorize it.

 

[Hamster]

"Let's use a rare Russian nerve agent (soviet era at that) to assassinate some irrelevant has-been ex spy (who we already imprisoned and released), on foreign soil of a country that's already hysterical about us, just to give them more ammo to use against us, just before the World cup" (David Kersten) 

[ordnance]

1 minute ago, Hamster said:

"Let's use a rare Russian nerve agent (soviet era at that) to assassinate some irrelevant has-been ex spy (who we already imprisoned and released), on foreign soil of a country that's already hysterical about us, just to give them more ammo to use against us, just before the World cup" (David Kersten) 

If you don't think it was the Russians who do you think it was.   ? Maybe it was a cunning plan by the UK government a excuse for when England gets knocked out of the World cup.  

[Hamster]

36 minutes ago, ordnance said:

If you don't think it was the Russians who do you think it was.   ? Maybe it was a cunning plan by the UK government a excuse for when England gets knocked out of the World cup.  

It's not likely to be one state or organ, rather a decision made by 2-3 of the more daring ones with plenty of previous on false flags and the wherewithal to manage them properly. It's entirely possible for instance that the UK/US are involved without May/Trump's actual knowledge, need to know basis if you like. My personal feeling is that only a tiny handful of people are in the know, the rest are oblivious participants. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

That's simple, his enemies, he has made plenty of world leaders look like simpletons from Crimea to Ukraine to Syria. He defeated Isis when others were (and still are) feeding it and pretending there were no targets to engage , he saved Syria from falling into Islamist terrorists hands. He has potentially scuppered further planned bloodshed in the middle east and has openly told the West and America to do one leaving them in no doubt whatsoever that his country will respond militarily against aggression to his country or his allies. I'd hate his guts if I were murica, Ukraine, UK, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia (they'd be too stupid to pull this off mind) and no doubt one or three more besides. 

Of course...... That's narrowed it down no end! Like you said, simple!  I'm so pleased we've cleared that up. 

[Hamster]

39 minutes ago, Scully said:

Of course...... That's narrowed it down no end! Like you said, simple!  I'm so pleased we've cleared that up. 

You do realise I'm not a secret agent ! I didn't think you actually, literally wanted me to know or reveal who it was. 

This stunt has the paw prints of Russia's enemies all over it, exactly which one(s) is never going to be known, other examples include 9-11 or Kennedy's real killer.

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

Kennedy's real killer.

Don't tell us...the Russians...

[Mungler]

Any one catch the two BBC documentaries on Putin? One was on Panorama today and the other was about the New Tsar?

The assination and imprisonment of anyone who stood a chance of opposing Putin is quite remarkable - no doubt that was MI5 and the CIA.

 

 

[Scully]

9 hours ago, Hamster said:

You do realise I'm not a secret agent ! I didn't think you actually, literally wanted me to know or reveal who it was. 

This stunt has the paw prints of Russia's enemies all over it, exactly which one(s) is never going to be known, other examples include 9-11 or Kennedy's real killer.

You’re hilarious! You don’t think this stunt has Russia’s paw prints all over it? That’ll be too obvious I suppose. Toys R Us perhaps?