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The Salisbury poison gas incident.


Retsdon
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13 minutes ago, Scully said:

You’re hilarious! You don’t think this stunt has Russia’s paw prints all over it? That’ll be too obvious I suppose. Toys R Us perhaps? 

Why do you think it's "too obvious" ? It's so simpletons buy it hook line and sinker :yes: and FWIW I am not alone, get onto the social platforms and you'll see and read plenty of intelligent, reasoned debate on the matter. 

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Being the simpleton I obviously am  I believe anyone who wants to will see conspiracy anywhere they want. 

Like I said; it’s not what you know but what you can prove. Don’t forget....the truth is out there. ?

its been fun but I think we’re done now. 

 

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Governments, organisations and individuals have endorsed ( or failed to dismiss ) misleading information for as long as we’ve had them, if it was in their best interest to do so..... to further an agenda in other words. 

The trouble with conspiracy theories is just that; they are theories,  which serve no purpose as no one is willing to take them the extra mile to push them to the point of proof. 

I would be delighted for someone to prove that Blair had sanctioned the killing of the advisor who opposed his claim of WMD in Iraq. 

There are many investigative journalists out there who would be more than willing to bring down any given government, but none seem to have done so. Remember Watergate? 

We might as well ask why, if accusing Russia is so detrimental for the UK, why this government has done so ‘without proof’. No doubt someone will come up with a conspiracy.

 

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Blair didn't sanction that, it's the deep state what does lunch in circles even he isn't privy to. He is though totally aware it goes on hence the look of genuine shock on his face, not quite knowing how to handle that kind of knowledge and power. 

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9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Blair didn't sanction that, it's the deep state what does lunch in circles even he isn't privy to. He is though totally aware it goes on hence the look of genuine shock on his face, not quite knowing how to handle that kind of knowledge and power. 

? Brilliant! ? 

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1 hour ago, Beardo said:

Good links, well worth a read, whatever you believe.

 

20 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Now that is very interesting  But how do I know those claims are true?

You can never be certain I suppose.
But then how do you know that the official line is true?  Because its official ?

At the end of the day, its just our opinions, if the government can lie about one thing, why can they not lie about another thing ?
They can justify any of this, 'Because its in the national interest'

Or are there still people around who think the government never tells porkies?

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Everything has a spin wherever it comes from.  The truth will be somewhere in between the official line and the usual warblings of the internet tinfoil hat aficionados.  Whether we get near to it depends on how good our critical thinking is.

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It's a funny old world. A world full of nut jobs. It seems several have found a home here. Anyone who thinks this isn't a Russian state sponsored use of a military grade nerve agent on British soil is genuinely bonkers, worthy of the finest custom foil hat. The nutnuts that continue to apologise for Putin's action should closely examine their loyalties too I suggest.

The component parts of the agent used can be analysed, that analysis produces a fingerprint, that fingerprint can be traced to a specific location. The expert analysis, admittedly not carried out by a housewife on Facebook, we are told points toward Russia as the origin. I don't really have any reason to doubt that, why would you?

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm referring to trusting the experts, not the politicians. The experts at Porton Down that did the analysis. Why would you not trust them over, say, a journalist or another agenda monkey? Or, indeed, the Russian government?

 

Edited by mick miller
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13 minutes ago, Zapp said:

Everything has a spin wherever it comes from.  The truth will be somewhere in between the official line and the usual warblings of the internet tinfoil hat aficionados.  Whether we get near to it depends on how good our critical thinking is.

This is the correct approach.

 

13 minutes ago, mick miller said:

 

The component parts of the agent used can be analysed, that analysis produces a fingerprint, that fingerprint can be traced to a specific location. The expert analysis, admittedly not carried out by a housewife on Facebook, we are told points toward Russia as the origin. I don't really have any reason to doubt that, why would you

 

Because the only PROOF is because they have told us that is the case, there is no independent verification, they will not give the Russians or the OPCW a sample of the agent.
They have nothing to compare it  to, unless they already had some ..
I am not a conspiracy theorist, I just dont automatically believe the first thing the media comes out with.
If you think that makes me bonkers, or a Russian spy ect, then thats up to you.

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50 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

That’s a bit unfair. There are some (sort of) points in amongst the frothing at the mouth.

? I don’t think it’s unfair; whenever someone asks a question of Hamsters claims, or asks another question such as I did, all he responds with is yet another theory or unprovable claim.

Why has this government decided to blame Russia? Why are there no journalists shouting from the rooftops? Why have no investigative UK journalists worked to uncover and prove that Blair’s advisor was murdered; why have they not done the same about the moon landings? Why has Watergate been the only one at government level? 

There are no doubt conspiracies; and I’m not so naive I believe all the government and media tell me, but it’s not what you know it’s what you can prove. It’s going to take more than a rabid Hamster to convince me otherwise. Some of the claims are just ridiculous....unless of course he can prove them. ?

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30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Because the only PROOF is because they have told us that is the case, there is no independent verification, they will not give the Russians or the OPCW a sample of the agent.

I think 'they' ( I assume you mean the government; 'they' has become a bit of a catchall with conspiracy theorists recently, so I may have made the wrong assumption here) are liaising with the OPCW but don't expect 'they' to liaise with the Russian authorities, why would 'they'?

Why do you continue to think that it wasn't the Russians that botched this? What are the arguments for them not being responsible, given the weight of evidence, both past and present, that suggest they are they most likely candidate for having carried it out? That and the, you know, experts saying that the origin was Russian. 

Or perhaps the folks at Porton Down had a sample and, and 'they' knew this and wanted to discredit the Russians because of, umm, Syria or something and, and 'they' thought 'I know, we could just bump off a Russian and then pin it on Putin and that would work wouldn't it' like the mischievous, machiavellian munchkins they are and then, Brexit could be undone or something.. 

Yeah, that makes more sense.

Quote

They have nothing to compare it  to, unless they already had some 

'They' don't need any. The elements can be analysed from samples taken from the crime scene. Many elements have fingerprints that can identify them to specific regions of the planet. For instance, you can even find out if your cheese is genuine and where it came from.


http://thescientistschannel.com/determining-the-geographical-origin-of-cheeses-by-molecular-fingerprint

Edited by mick miller
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5 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I think 'they' ( I assume you mean the government; 'they' has become a bit of a catchall with conspiracy theorists recently, so I may have made the wrong assumption here) are liaising with the OPCW but don't expect 'they' to liaise with the Russian authorities, why would 'they'?

When you start accusing people of doing criminal acts, that involve serious things like nerve agents ect, it would be prudent to check, and produce for scrutiny, the evidence.
If we gave the Russians a sample and said 'Is this your nerve agent ?' They might say 'Yes, but we dont have any knowledge of the use of it in the UK, we shall investigate'
They might say 'No not ours, someone has copied our 30 -40 year old formula, that one of our scientist published in a book 10 years ago.
Or ,they could not be given a sample, so they cant check, and just get accused of it anyway.


Why do you continue to think that it wasn't the Russians that botched this? What are the arguments for them not being responsible, given the weight of evidence, both past and present, that suggest they are they most likely candidate for having carried it out? That and the, you know, experts saying that the origin was Russian. 
First and foremost, the speed at which the accusation was released, Boris was telling the world of his 'robust' retaliation plans before  Skripal had been assigned a bed !
Very tardy response until days later for a clean up/containment operation in Salisbury, then the haz mat teams go in ,draw whatever conclusions you like from that.
And again. its just too obvious, why even bother denying it, if you are going to leave all the evidence behind ?


Or perhaps the folks at Porton Down had a sample and, and 'they' knew this and wanted to discredit the Russians because of, umm, Syria or something and, and 'they' thought 'I know, we could just bump off a Russian and then pin it on Putin and that would work wouldn't it' like the mischievous, machiavellian munchkins they are and then, Brexit could be undone or something.. 

Yeah, that makes more sense. 

Yes it does.
But then, thats a too far out way of thinking isnt it ?
Our government would never do such a thing surely ?
If you cant examine all angles critically, then thats fine , you dont have to.
Again, its just a discussion, whatever happens, there absolutely nothing you or I can do about it.

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Umm, okay then.... I suppose somewhere the Israelis were involved too?

I embellished my post above, albeit with a simple example of molecular examination of cheese to determine origin to give an idea of how, at a molecular level, you can use [dirty word alert] science to determine [another dirty word] facts about where in the world something has come from.

I'm not a scientist, but I would imagine that's what the folks at Porton Down are and do. Perhaps even that is a bit too complex to understand for some of us.

Edited by mick miller
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11 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Umm, okay then.... I suppose somewhere the Israelis were involved too? Nope

I embellished my post above, albeit with a simple example of molecular examination of cheese to determine origin to give an idea of how, at a molecular level, you can use [dirty word alert] science to determine [another dirty word] facts about where in the world something has come from.

I'm not a scientist, but I would imagine that's what the folks at Porton Down are and do. Perhaps even that is a bit too complex to understand for some of us.

Im not a scientist either, but I can use logic.
Kalashnikovs are made by Avtomat in Russia.
So if a man is killed by an AK in ,I dont know , Bristol for example , the Russians must have done it ?

Further, if the man was an ex spy, or critic of Putin or the Russian state, then Putin is directly responsible ?

We are told that Novochok is specifically 'Russian'  its a chemical, its like saying viagra can only be made by Pfizer for instance. 
Thats the 'proof' . Novochok can only be made by Russians ,so Putin did it.
It wouldnt stand up as evidence in any court, in any civilised country in the world.

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3 hours ago, Zapp said:

Everything has a spin wherever it comes from.  The truth will be somewhere in between the official line and the usual warblings of the internet tinfoil hat aficionados.  Whether we get near to it depends on how good our critical thinking is.

Correct, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. 

 

3 hours ago, Scully said:

? I don’t think it’s unfair; whenever someone asks a question of Hamsters claims, or asks another question such as I did, all he responds with is yet another theory or unprovable claim.

 

Simply not true, you're just unwilling to engage with and listen to the tinfoil hat, conspiracy theorists :rolleyes: side. There is no way I can prove anything, there is simply not enough time, knowledge or 100% uncorrupted data here, for you or me. What I always say in these instances when people start throwing their toys out is to take a deep breath, relax and follow the info being offered out there on the social media platforms. My stance is the same as that of thousands of intelligent journalists, politicians, professors, lawyers, multi linguists, multi award winning authors, critical thinkers, news commentators, knowledgeable first hand data gained on the ground next to the bombs by social/rescue workers, historians, ACTUAL experts in their respective fields (rather than soundbite msm specialists)..............you get the picture. I trust them more than I trust your average hobby shooter with a school boy grasp of world politics, snide intended. 

What's more these guys/gals aren't all from the middle east, they include Irish, English, Scottish, Australian, Israeli, American, Canadian, eastern block countries, Russian, Iranian, Greek, Greek Cypriots, South American, African, etc, etc, etc...................what's holding you back, scared of finding out you've lived a lie all your life that's what. You know my name, FB friend me and tag along with the hundreds of commentator/posters there, they can't all be bonkers. 

3 hours ago, mick miller said:

It's a funny old world. A world full of nut jobs. It seems several have found a home here. Anyone who thinks this isn't a Russian state sponsored use of a military grade nerve agent on British soil is genuinely bonkers, worthy of the finest custom foil hat. The nutnuts that continue to apologise for Putin's action should closely examine their loyalties too I suggest.

 

 

Military grade that failed to even kill its intended victims, sounds more like pound shop grade, anyone who is naive enough to think Putin would court world wide condemnation so close to the world cup and with all the genuine dangers inherent in our world today is simply not thinking for himself. My loyalties are to ALL human beings, everything I say or write is because I detest war and I detest war mongers, poking Russia may sound a loyal thing to do to you but not to me. 

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The thing with something like this is, nobody can say with 100% certainty who's to blame, all we can do is take an educated guess, the full facts aren't and won't be released so I keep an open mind as to what's occurred, my best guess would be that Russia has indeed bumped off an ex spy, but it wouldn't amaze me if the UK or other group was behind it either, there's no point arguing about it, even less so as nobody on here knows for sure.

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