NON Toxix wad length

[Guest cookoff013]

12gauge chamber is about 800 thou. Barrel is approx .729 give or take.

[MAB1954]

9 hours ago, figgy said:

I would have thought the pressure would push the sealing skirt open and seal the wad up the barrel. Otherwise overbored guns would never get a wad to seal and be useless.

 

 some pre slit wads are slit all the way down to base.

Yes the pressure will push the sealing skirt out to make a seal against case/chamber/bore which will be all different dia. Useful to have unslit wads some time and experiment a bit with length.

[Continental Shooter]

They all do expand to a certain extent but obviously a wad with a diameter of  0.727 will seal better than one with a diameter of 0.715, hence why a nitro card (or even better a gas seal) is advised on manuals. This is also one of the reasons why certain wads develop an higher pressure than other (less gas escapes).

I would strongly advise against shooting unslit wads as some pellets might remain in it and when the wad turns it will progress as a bullet instead. I run few tests some years back where the wad impression is clearly visible on the pattern plate.

[figgy]

How does it work with a fiber shot cup as you cant slit them ?

[Smokersmith]

I slit my fibre was cups for the 8 bore. I cut them on a diagonal across the thickness of the wad wall (but still vertical).

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Continental Shooter said:

They all do expand to a certain extent but obviously a wad with a diameter of  0.727 will seal better than one with a diameter of 0.715, hence why a nitro card (or even better a gas seal) is advised on manuals. This is also one of the reasons why certain wads develop an higher pressure than other (less gas escapes).

I would strongly advise against shooting unslit wads as some pellets might remain in it and when the wad turns it will progress as a bullet instead. I run few tests some years back where the wad impression is clearly visible on the pattern plate.

like these ? LCB and steel, I was using old nylon sail cloth over ply and the wads broke through the cloth, the shot is still visible in the wad on the left hand one slit about 3/4

[Continental Shooter]

3 hours ago, islandgun said:

like these ? LCB and steel, I was using old nylon sail cloth over ply and the wads broke through the cloth, the shot is still visible in the wad on the left hand one slit about 3/4

Yup, like these. 

Looking at the base I would say there's lots of pressure going on there, the plastic melted and the shot was pushed through. Might be a faulty batch as well... 

I read somewhere that they need to be slit for 3/4 to full length in 12 bore to function well, these cut seem somewhat short?

Edited April 3, 2018 by Continental Shooter

[hatsanmad]

14 hours ago, figgy said:

I would have thought the pressure would push the sealing skirt open and seal the wad up the barrel. Otherwise overbored guns would never get a wad to seal and be useless.

 

 some pre slit wads are slit all the way down to base.

To a extent your right but the powder won't burn as well. A tight fitted wad will give a good burn and help give better momentum as the powder burns but the loose fitting wad the powder will burn but it will burn up the sides of the case if you shoot one and recover the wad I can almost grauntee the outside of the wad will be black and scorched were as a EU wad say B&P s35 in a cheddite Hull won't be scorched and have traces of burnt powder on the outside walls. But the us wads don't fit properly even though they will cause a seal in the bore they won't give a good seal inside the Hull so they won't build up enough pressure to maintain a consistent speed and performance 

[motty]

35 minutes ago, hatsanmad said:

To a extent your right but the powder won't burn as well. A tight fitted wad will give a good burn and help give better momentum as the powder burns but the loose fitting wad the powder will burn but it will burn up the sides of the case if you shoot one and recover the wad I can almost grauntee the outside of the wad will be black and scorched were as a EU wad say B&P s35 in a cheddite Hull won't be scorched and have traces of burnt powder on the outside walls. But the us wads don't fit properly even though they will cause a seal in the bore they won't give a good seal inside the Hull so they won't build up enough pressure to maintain a consistent speed and performance 

That is not my experience.

[figgy]

I have seen the black marks on the outside of lots of wads but thought it was off the barrels.

I get what your saying it takes time for the gasses to build enough pressure to seal the skirt on the wad base, by which time some powder has burnt and gasses escaped up the sides of the wad. As the pressure builds slower the powder don't burnt as well.

[Smokersmith]

I guess that's the difference between effective and efficient. All of the loads I use are effective .... whether they're the most efficient in terms of ballistics is not as important to me.

[islandgun]

9 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Yup, like these. 

Looking at the base I would say there's lots of pressure going on there, the plastic melted and the shot was pushed through. Might be a faulty batch as well... 

I read somewhere that they need to be slit for 3/4 to full length in 12 bore to function well, these cut seem somewhat short?

Just measured them. i cut them at the least 2/3 and the most 3/4. they were the only two i found like that, and i pick up as many as i can find, shooting at the board, Some advise you can cut at varying depths and vary the number of cuts to achieve different patterns.!

[Continental Shooter]

5 hours ago, islandgun said:

Just measured them. i cut them at the least 2/3 and the most 3/4. they were the only two i found like that, and i pick up as many as i can find, shooting at the board, Some advise you can cut at varying depths and vary the number of cuts to achieve different patterns.!

Strange...but it's not unknown for wads to collapse. This normally happens on regular wads with shock absorbers but 1-2 dodgy ones can come around.  I've seen people making different cuts and undoubtedly every cut will provide different patterns with deeper ones potentially providing a wider spread than shorter ones. Did you notice that on the pattern board?

[islandgun]

6 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Strange...but it's not unknown for wads to collapse. This normally happens on regular wads with shock absorbers but 1-2 dodgy ones can come around.  I've seen people making different cuts and undoubtedly every cut will provide different patterns with deeper ones potentially providing a wider spread than shorter ones. Did you notice that on the pattern board?

Yes mate, half the shot was still in the wad when it hit the board

[6.5x55SE]

37 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Yes mate, half the shot was still in the wad when it hit the board

One reason a Wad can do that is because it has been crimped. I shot a Pink one morning that looked like I'd shot it with my Deer Rifle. My mate laughing said i bet you shot that with a Victory Steel.

Back at his home he randomly picked 5 of my Cartridges which 2 of them had the wad in with the crimp eg wad was mm to long. Using the other 30 odd cartridges i shot 4-5 more which looked like they had been Rifle shot my mate had previously stopped using them for the same reason

[islandgun]

1 minute ago, 6.5x55SE said:

One reason a Wad can do that is because it has been crimped. I shot a Pink one morning that looked like I'd shot it with my Deer Rifle. My mate laughing said i bet you shot that with a Victory Steel.

Back at his home he randomly picked 5 of my Cartridges which 2 of them had the wad in with the crimp eg wad was mm to long. Using the other 30 odd cartridges i shot 4-5 more which looked like they had been Rifle shot my mate had previously stopped using them for the same reason

Those Lbc wads are pretty heavy duty, I could completely understand it being crimped if a TPS wad,especially given the recent argument of them being overlong,  my thought at the time was that the steel shot had rusted !

[6.5x55SE]

33 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Those Lbc wads are pretty heavy duty, I could completely understand it being crimped if a TPS wad,especially given the recent argument of them being overlong,  my thought at the time was that the steel shot had rusted !

Rusted stuck together shot possibly could cause it also but I'd have thought you would have seen the evidence

[motty]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

Those Lbc wads are pretty heavy duty, I could completely understand it being crimped if a TPS wad,especially given the recent argument of them being overlong,  my thought at the time was that the steel shot had rusted !

I have seen some pretty rusty steel pellets in cartridges, but I have never seen them so bad that they have all rusted together. I bet it would take something extreme to cause that.

[Continental Shooter]

i can see the pellet through the wad base; this is pretty heavy stuff!

having the pellets stuck in the wad is a general sign of high pressure where the heat generated starts the melting process and the pellets get stuck in; but going through the wad.... that some serious heat considering the compound they're made of is far stronger than the normal lead wads.

I'm with Motty on this one; if they rusted together (pretty extreme) they would have shot out as a single bullet; most likely though they would have broken up when the barrel start to choke.

If the wad was 'crimped' in the closure then i would expect to see the hull ripped or broken at the crimp...

Were these B&P Steel wads? if so i can ask some of the guys i know to provide some info based on the pics (if i can pass these on)

[6.5x55SE]

4 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

i can see the pellet through the wad base; this is pretty heavy stuff!

having the pellets stuck in the wad is a general sign of high pressure where the heat generated starts the melting process and the pellets get stuck in; but going through the wad.... that some serious heat considering the compound they're made of is far stronger than the normal lead wads.

I'm with Motty on this one; if they rusted together (pretty extreme) they would have shot out as a single bullet; most likely though they would have broken up when the barrel start to choke.

If the wad was 'crimped' in the closure then i would expect to see the hull ripped or broken at the crimp...

Were these B&P Steel wads? if so i can ask some of the guys i know to provide some info based on the pics (if i can pass these on)

All the ones myself and mate know we shot with crimped wads the cases where no difference to any other.

I actually recrimped and fired which went out like a rifled slug . 

[figgy]

How did you manage to crimp the wad when i tried to crimp some with long wads the crimp was poor and would'n crimp properly.

[6.5x55SE]

Very easily. MEC or Super Crimp Starter metal Redding Crimp Finisher then spun with Geap Finisher 

[islandgun]

8 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

i can see the pellet through the wad base; this is pretty heavy stuff!

having the pellets stuck in the wad is a general sign of high pressure where the heat generated starts the melting process and the pellets get stuck in; but going through the wad.... that some serious heat considering the compound they're made of is far stronger than the normal lead wads.

I'm with Motty on this one; if they rusted together (pretty extreme) they would have shot out as a single bullet; most likely though they would have broken up when the barrel start to choke.

If the wad was 'crimped' in the closure then i would expect to see the hull ripped or broken at the crimp...

Were these B&P Steel wads? if so i can ask some of the guys i know to provide some info based on the pics (if i can pass these on)

If the question was directed to me, the wad was a Gualandi LBC and seem to be a lot tougher than a tps for example,  please feel free to pass on the pics. or if you prefer i could post them,

[Continental Shooter]

Hi,

Just wanted to provide you with an update as i said i'd ask my friend in the rival company to provide me his view on the wad condition.

He obviously stressed this is not an official statement and for commercial reason i cannot copy/paste his response.

However, he suggested this might have been caused by a combination of 'water hammer' and a lot of heat.

The burning process was too hot and started melting the base wad. The advancing wad  (and pellet colum) hit resistence (the crimp?)  and the pellet receeded back through the soft base. 

He suggested this could ave been caused by a number of factors including a defect in production -if these are exceptions (1%)- or an overly powerful load which generated too much heat and gases in a short period of time (high pressure). 

The one thing he highlighted is that on the photo on the right it seems more than one pellet went through the wad which could have been expelled in any direction  posing a danger.

 

Many Thanks,

[allanm]

On 31/03/2018 at 17:25, figgy said:

Anyone had the issue of BPI TPS 3” wads being to long to get a crimp, it’s around 6mm longer than a B&P s35 or SAM1 wad and only leaves 5.5mm of free case at the top for crimp. Tried to crimp a few but awful and had to cut them and recover shot powder and primer. Tried a new 3” Chedite case in case it was dues to pre crimped once used cases no different. 

The photo is a TPS next to a S35 wad

Trim the tps down to the correct length for a good crimp (there soft and cut easily with Sharp scissors) ,you can afford to have a row of pellets above the wad as they will be inside the wad when fired (set back) . But likes been said save yourself the extra cost and use b&p s35 or LBC ?