Alarms.... over 6 guns

[Grandalf]

FEO said "Do you have an alarm system"?   I knocked twice on the gun cabinet.   Three big dogs exploded down stairs.   I said "Three of them".   FEO said "OK - point taken".

That was that.

[Green hornet]

58 minutes ago, Scully said:

I can’t grasp the logic either, no more so than them insisting alarms are fitted when a certain number of guns is attained. I could understand it if ALL licensees were obliged to fit security regardless of the number of guns held. 

Something that I could see  happening in the future.  

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Green hornet said:

Something that I could see  happening in the future.  

Quite possibly; it would at least be logical. 

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Quite possibly; it would at least be logical. 

When have they ever been logical? 

Its just covering there back if you don’t fit the alarm and you get robbed they’ll say we advised you to get a alarm 

fit the alarm and get robbed and then you can say you took more than adequate precautions to prevent it from happening 

 

[Dekers]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I can’t grasp the logic either, no more so than them insisting alarms are fitted when a certain number of guns is attained. I could understand it if ALL licensees were obliged to fit security regardless of the number of guns held. 

WHY?

I don't see any logic to it regardless, but then again I don't have any figures of how many gun cabinets are broken into and guns stolen, regardless of the number of guns in them!

Is ANY additional security required by way of Alarms etc at all., if so, what evidence says it is required and what evidence shows it works?

[mossy835]

i have 5 shotguns,in a 5 gun cabinet. avon and somerset will allow that, if i want another shotgun i will have to put in an alarm.thats what i was told by them many years ago, and my flo told me this.

 

my mate has 28 guns, and 2 alarms the police dont like it.

[thepasty]

My FEO was happy with one of those cheap shed alarms and was even happier with my massive man eating South Russian Sheepdog

Edited April 1, 2018 by thepasty

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Dekers said:

WHY?

 

Because then it would be logical! Insisting on alarms if the number of guns passes a certain level is illogical; it's almost as if they're suggesting it's not too bad if five get stolen, but six is a definite no no. 

I'm not suggesting for one minute that alarms should be fitted, but at least I could understand it if legislation called for all applicants to install alarms as part of a successful application because it would then at least make sense, but to insist that alarms are fitted when a given number is exceeded just isn't logical.

However, I'll admit that logic plays no part in UK firearms legislation. 

[bostonmick]

I have a couple of alarms at my stable yard and another yard I store some machinery. It texts and calls me when a intruder is detected. It takes me about ten minutes to get from my house to either of these yards. Since having them I have caught three thieves and the police took them away and have had a few occasions where the would be robbers have fled when they see my truck coming. This also has a knock on effect that word gets around the lowlife community that if you go there it's not long before someone turns up. This has cut the intruders down to virtually none. 

[Graham M]

I have an alarm fitted and have 12 guns/rifles altogether. But, I was told that if I wanted more than that I would have to install a "Monitored" alarm at a cost of @ £400 a year.

Needless to say I didn't press it, although it does mean that I will need to get rid of one of the guns before I can get the black powder pistol that I am looking at, which does seem to be a problem in itself as no-one seems to want to buy the nice BSA I had for sale a while back.

 

[Dekers]

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 17:33, Scully said:

Because then it would be logical! Insisting on alarms if the number of guns passes a certain level is illogical; it's almost as if they're suggesting it's not too bad if five get stolen, but six is a definite no no. 

I'm not suggesting for one minute that alarms should be fitted, but at least I could understand it if legislation called for all applicants to install alarms as part of a successful application because it would then at least make sense, but to insist that alarms are fitted when a given number is exceeded just isn't logical.

However, I'll admit that logic plays no part in UK firearms legislation. 

I say WHY again, and quote my whole post yet again below.

What evidence is there that alarms help in any way, how many gun cabinets are broken into, alarmed or not???     Nothing can make sense unless it is based on information, if there is no difference in break-ins of alarmed and non alarmed why does it make sense?   If we don't know/have those figures, how can anything make sense when debating the value or otherwise of alarms????????

WHY?

I don't see any logic to it regardless, but then again I don't have any figures of how many gun cabinets are broken into and guns stolen, regardless of the number of guns in them!

Is ANY additional security required by way of Alarms etc at all., if so, what evidence says it is required and what evidence shows it works?

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, Dekers said:

I say WHY again, and quote my whole post yet again below.

What evidence is there that alarms help in any way, how many gun cabinets are broken into, alarmed or not???     Nothing can make sense unless it is based on information, if there is no difference in break-ins of alarmed and non alarmed why does it make sense?   If we don't know/have those figures, how can anything make sense when debating the value or otherwise of alarms????????

WHY?

I don't see any logic to it regardless, but then again I don't have any figures of how many gun cabinets are broken into and guns stolen, regardless of the number of guns in them!

Is ANY additional security required by way of Alarms etc at all., if so, what evidence says it is required and what evidence shows it works?

You will never know the figures of how many houses were NOT broken into because they had a visible alarm system.

When it comes to gun security though, is it not better to have one, than not?
In Notts we have the 6 gun 'guidance' I personally dont think its a point worth arguing if Im honest.
If they want to see an alarm, then stick one in, its not massively expensive is it ?
Ive put a couple of those IP cams in too at £15 a piece , if someone comes through the door, it takes a picture of them and starts recording, sends it all to my phone.
I could then 'theoretically' call the police and say, Im being burgled and I have firearms in the house, see how quick they attended ?

[Dekers]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You will never know the figures of how many houses were NOT broken into because they had a visible alarm system.

When it comes to gun security though, is it not better to have one, than not?
In Notts we have the 6 gun 'guidance' I personally dont think its a point worth arguing if Im honest.
If they want to see an alarm, then stick one in, its not massively expensive is it ?
Ive put a couple of those IP cams in too at £15 a piece , if someone comes through the door, it takes a picture of them and starts recording, sends it all to my phone.
I could then 'theoretically' call the police and say, Im being burgled and I have firearms in the house, see how quick they attended ?

You seem to be missing my point!  I am not extolling the virtue or otherwise of an alarm, but nobody is in a position to promote or scupper alarm systems without knowing some figures!

All we need to know is how many cabinets are broken into with an alarmed home and a non alarmed home, then a bit more logical debate could follow?  After all, Cabinets are meant to be securely fixed and difficult to break into, so they should be pretty secure in their own right.  Many will also ague the counter effect of a visible alarm system, which may suggest there is something worth stealing in the property!

Whatever you or anyone may consider cheap/innexpensive is a personal view, monitored systems, which may well come with other additional security requirements from the Regions, are NOT CHEAP when gun numbers start climbing!

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, Dekers said:

You seem to be missing my point!  I am not extolling the virtue or otherwise of an alarm, but nobody is in a position to promote or scupper alarm systems without knowing some figures!

All we need to know is how many cabinets are broken into with an alarmed home and a non alarmed home, then a bit more logical debate could follow?  After all, Cabinets are meant to be securely fixed and difficult to break into, so they should be pretty secure in their own right.  Many will also ague the counter effect of a visible alarm system, which may suggest there is something worth stealing in the property!

Whatever you or anyone may consider cheap/innexpensive is a personal view, monitored systems, which may well come with other additional security requirements from the Regions, are NOT CHEAP when gun numbers start climbing!

You are asking for information that doesnt exist.
I could say to you ,how many houses are broken into specifically to steal guns ?
Or did an opportune burglar just happen upon a house that happened to have a gun cabinet?
We will never know ,unless the burglar is caught and admits to targeting guns to steal, something he is highly unlikely to do.

Now, whatever the intention, is he more or less likely to begin the process of hacking into a cabinet or removing it from the wall ,with an alarm (that may or may not be monitored) screaming in his ear, or will he just take what he can and make off?

Try to put yourself in the mind of the burglar, look at your house, how would you get in, would an alarm box on the outside and a few cameras put you off, even if they are dummy ones.

When it comes to cost, well thats entirely up to you, if you have an expensive gun collection, you might want to protect it, and your future licence, by investing in some security,
It doesnt have to be expensive.

[Dekers]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You are asking for information that doesnt exist.
I could say to you ,how many houses are broken into specifically to steal guns ?
Or did an opportune burglar just happen upon a house that happened to have a gun cabinet?
We will never know ,unless the burglar is caught and admits to targeting guns to steal, something he is highly unlikely to do.

Now, whatever the intention, is he more or less likely to begin the process of hacking into a cabinet or removing it from the wall ,with an alarm (that may or may not be monitored) screaming in his ear, or will he just take what he can and make off?

Try to put yourself in the mind of the burglar, look at your house, how would you get in, would an alarm box on the outside and a few cameras put you off, even if they are dummy ones.

When it comes to cost, well thats entirely up to you, if you have an expensive gun collection, you might want to protect it, and your future licence, by investing in some security,
It doesnt have to be expensive.

We are talking about the requirement/suggestion to have an alarm at 6 guns and a monitored alarm at 12 guns!

It doesn't matter who/why/whatever the house was broken into, all we need to know is, was an alarm fitted or not, were guns stolen from a cabinet?     That is my point, NOBODY (from what you say) knows, so any suggestion it makes sense to install an alarm is speculation, and as regards dummy systems, there is hardly likely to be any sounders ringing in the thief's ears!!

So recommendation/suggestion in the Safety handbook is based in speculation and not fact, which is a bit rich as a monitored alarm system isn't cheap.

Let me repeat again....... I am not extolling the virtue or otherwise of an alarm, but nobody is in a position to promote or scupper alarm systems without knowing some figures!

Personally I have an alarm system, I have no idea what effect it may or may not have, and it wasn't put in because of the guns, I simply feel happier with it, I could well be deluding myself!

Edited April 3, 2018 by Dekers

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Dekers said:

We are talking about the requirement/suggestion to have an alarm at 6 guns and a monitored alarm at 12 guns!

It doesn't matter who/why/whatever the house was broken into, all we need to know is, was an alarm fitted or not, were guns stolen from a cabinet?     That is my point, NOBODY (from what you say) knows, so any suggestion it makes sense to install an alarm is speculation!

So recommendation/suggestion in the Safety handbook is based in speculation and not fact, which is a bit rich as a monitored alarm system isn't cheap.

Let me repeat again....... I am not extolling the virtue or otherwise of an alarm, but nobody is in a position to promote or scupper alarm systems without knowing some figures!

Personally I have an alarm system, I have no idea what effect it may or may not have, and it wasn't put in because of the guns, I simply feel happier with it, I could well be deluding myself!

Its not whether its speculation or not, if the police tell you you have to do it , you have to do it, or not get granted/renewed/ varied surely ?

You say that you dont know what effect it may or may not have, but its made you feel happier, surely thats a good effect ?

Besides the slight possibility that a burglar sees an alarm and thinks, mmm valuable stuff inside, maybe guns too,Im going to burgle that one! When is an alarm a bad idea ?

[bostonmick]

As I said on previous post I have several alarms. They all contact me by mobile network. I had them installed because I was sick of replacing expensive equipment that got stolen. Some could not be insured because of location. These alarms are not expensive to buy.the benefit is they alert you that your property has been breached. So now you have choices. If you are close by go there. Call someone else who is close by to go there or phone the police and hope they go. An alarm in itself will not stop a thief trying. What it does do is limits the time for the scum to ransack your home etc. As for gun thefts I don't believe that most burglars go after guns they are not equipped with tools to break open a cabinet they are mainly looking for laptops game consoles cash etc. Easy pickings. So while monitored systems may not stop break ins they limit the damage. 

[ShootingEgg]

On 01/04/2018 at 15:37, mossy835 said:

i have 5 shotguns,in a 5 gun cabinet. avon and somerset will allow that, if i want another shotgun i will have to put in an alarm.thats what i was told by them many years ago, and my flo told me this.

 

my mate has 28 guns, and 2 alarms the police dont like it.

This is what I got in avs. Now have alarm in the room the cabinet is in. So not full house alarm. 

Also said its installed and inspected,  but how do they know if I arm it or not.  Pointless tick in a box. 

[Dekers]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Its not whether its speculation or not, if the police tell you you have to do it , you have to do it, or not get granted/renewed/ varied surely ?

You say that you dont know what effect it may or may not have, but its made you feel happier, surely thats a good effect ?

Besides the slight possibility that a burglar sees an alarm and thinks, mmm valuable stuff inside, maybe guns too,Im going to burgle that one! When is an alarm a bad idea ?

May I ask you to read my posts again, there seems some misunderstanding of my comments!

It IS speculation if alarms work, you say yourself there are no figures to support that, and it is out of order for the Police/Home Office to demand you have an alarm on speculation of their usefulness.   The fact that I may have an alarm and it makes me feel happier is absolutely no basis to suggest they work, or people should have an alarm if they have 6 guns, or a monitored alarm at 12 guns, that is daft.

There is absolutely no sense in The Safety Handbook saying you need alarms if they don't have any information saying they work!  If they do have supporting evidence then it does make sense, otherwise it doesn't and they are demanding Firearms holders spend money on an unproven security measure!

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, Dekers said:

May I ask you to read my posts again, there seems some misunderstanding of my comments!

It IS speculation if alarms work, you say yourself there are no figures to support that, and it is out of order for the Police/Home Office to demand you have an alarm on speculation of their usefulness.   The fact that I may have an alarm and it makes me feel happier is absolutely no basis to suggest they work, or people should have an alarm if they have 6 guns, or a monitored alarm at 12 guns, that is daft.

There is absolutely no sense in The Safety Handbook saying you need alarms if they don't have any information saying they work!  If they do have supporting evidence then it does make sense, otherwise it doesn't and they are demanding Firearms holders spend money on an unproven security measure!

I think you need to re read what youve put, and my responses.

You asked for stats whether alarms prevent gun thefts, as I said those stats arent available.
The police dont NEED to justify why they want to see an alarm after x amount of guns stored, they can be as 'out of order' or 'daft' as they like, they hold the cards.
If you dont like it ,write a strongly worded letter to them or your shooting organisation, and see where that gets you.
The safety handbook and the guidelines dont 'make sense' in a lot of areas, but that is what we have to adhere to, you can put as many frustrated exclamation marks as you like after your comments, but if you want to keep your tickets, you have ,for the most part ,got to do as they say.

For the record, I dont think its an unreasonable request to put a cheap alarm system in to keep everyone happy.

[Dekers]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I think you need to re read what youve put, and my responses.

You asked for stats whether alarms prevent gun thefts, as I said those stats arent available.
The police dont NEED to justify why they want to see an alarm after x amount of guns stored, they can be as 'out of order' or 'daft' as they like, they hold the cards.
If you dont like it ,write a strongly worded letter to them or your shooting organisation, and see where that gets you.
The safety handbook and the guidelines dont 'make sense' in a lot of areas, but that is what we have to adhere to, you can put as many frustrated exclamation marks as you like after your comments, but if you want to keep your tickets, you have ,for the most part ,got to do as they say.

For the record, I dont think its an unreasonable request to put a cheap alarm system in to keep everyone happy.

This is going nowhere, there is obviously a lack of communication here, you are misinterpreting virtually everything I am saying and putting words into my mouth I never said!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Dekers

[Old farrier]

My personal collection increased to pass the 6number 

remember moderators count on your fac 

so 2 shotgun 

2 rifle.  +2 moderators 

gives you 6 

feo said you’re going to need a alarm if you get any more 

reply 

ok what do you want 

so we had a bit of a chat I decided to exceed what he wanted 

never had a problem since as he considered that I had a good consept of security and was prepared to go that bit further to keep my guns safe 

[Westley]

All that I would say in the defence of alarm systems, is, that during 30 years of working in Liverpool, I would attend, on average, 3 Burglaries per week.  I can not be bothered to do the maths, but trust me, it is a hell of a lot. Of all of those at domestic premises (aprox 2 of 3) I can only think of about 6 that had an alarm system fitted and certainly 3 of those there were of 'extenuating circumstances'. It is impossible to measure the effectiveness of an alarm, because you will NEVER know how many Burglars have been deterred merely by the presence of an alarm.  In the last 2 months, in the local area, there have been 3 burglaries to obtain car keys and of course, the car.  None of those properties had an alarm system. My Son in Law has now visited all 3 of those properties..................he is an alarm installer  ! 

[TriBsa]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

My personal collection increased to pass the 6number 

remember moderators count on your fac 

so 2 shotgun 

2 rifle.  +2 moderators 

gives you 6 

feo said you’re going to need a alarm if you get any more 

reply 

ok what do you want 

so we had a bit of a chat I decided to exceed what he wanted 

never had a problem since as he considered that I had a good consept of security and was prepared to go that bit further to keep my guns safe 

Moderators do not count when it comes to the magic 6 guns:

Quote

19.34.

For these purposes, a “substantial” number of firearms should be considered with regardto the type of firearms, their potential danger if misused and their likely attractiveness tocriminals. At the lower end the number might vary between 6 and 10, depending on the type of firearm concerned, whilst anything over 10 would rarely be lower than level 2.However, it is not enough to base an assessment on the number of firearms alone; all factors mentioned above should be taken into account. Sound moderators, spare barrels,spare cylinders and component parts should not be considered as part of this total.

 

[Scully]

10 hours ago, Dekers said:

I say WHY again, and quote my whole post yet again below.

What evidence is there that alarms help in any way, how many gun cabinets are broken into, alarmed or not???     Nothing can make sense unless it is based on information, if there is no difference in break-ins of alarmed and non alarmed why does it make sense?   If we don't know/have those figures, how can anything make sense when debating the value or otherwise of alarms????????

WHY?

I don't see any logic to it regardless, but then again I don't have any figures of how many gun cabinets are broken into and guns stolen, regardless of the number of guns in them!

Is ANY additional security required by way of Alarms etc at all., if so, what evidence says it is required and what evidence shows it works?

I think we're at cross purposes here. I'm not concerned about whether we should have alarms fitted or not; and I'm not really interested whether there are figures to prove one thing or another; personally I don't see the point in them whatsoever. I've seen and heard enough car and shop alarms going off to realise no one really takes much notice. The point I'm trying to make is this......where is the common sense...the logic,  in stipulating that at a given number ( in this case 6 ) of firearms owned, the owner should fit an alarm? Why 6 and not 5, or 10, or 4, or less? Who decided that there was no need for an alarm at 5 guns, but a definite need at 6? Where is the logic behind the thinking that 5 was ok but 6 required special security? There is none; it's ridiculous.