Getting rather serious this Syria thing.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I wonder if the lads in Akrotiri are building Stormshadows?

[Rewulf]

'Amid escalating tensions, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the US Central Command (CENTCOM), have allegedly been compiling lists of potential targets and attack options to present to Trump and his national security team, senior US military officials told Israel’s i24NEWS.

Israeli officials had, throughout Sunday, advocated striking targets in Syria, calling on Washington to retaliate against Damascus in response to the alleged Douma chemical attack. The charge was led by the Israeli Strategic Affairs and Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan, who told the Army Radio on Sunday that he personally hopes that the US would take military action against the Syrian government. Among an array of politicians, Israeli opposition leader Isaac Herzog also called on the US to take “decisive military action”against Syria. The idea of Israel’s intervention in Syria was also supported by the Israeli Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef, who urged his followers “to try and stop this massacre.”'

Since when was Israel bothered about a few Arabs ?
Last time I checked the IDF chiefs of staff couldnt sleep at night unless theyd shot a few unarmed civilians that day.

And why is the American carrier group going to the Persian gulf ?
Its quickest route is straight through the Med to hit Syria, are they trying to provoke someone perhaps by parking their battle group off another 'enemy ' countries coastline ?

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I wonder if the lads in Akrotiri are building Stormshadows?

At £800k a piece  ,yeah probably.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

At £800k a piece  ,yeah probably.

They have sat around for quite a while, it's about time we used some of the older ones!

[Retsdon]

Seems like cooler heads are prevailing. 

So, I cannot tell you that we have evidence, even though we have a lot of media and social media indicators that either chlorine or sarin was used.
U.S. Defense Secretary James Mattis.

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Retsdon

[Hamster]

 

The Americans have always said they're not interested in a fair fight, only the weak are picked on hence my label of bully. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

 

The Americans have always said they're not interested in a fair fight, only the weak are picked on hence my label of bully. 

It baffles me whenever someone goes on about fighting fair; I simply cannot see the logic in a fair fight when your survival is at stake. The whole point is winning, and surviving, not to give your opponent an even chance.

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

It baffles me whenever someone goes on about fighting fair; I simply cannot see the logic in a fair fight when your survival is at stake. The whole point is winning, and surviving, not to give your opponent an even chance.

Yes there is that side to it and perfectly valid too but context is needed here, if for instance someone chose to become particularly proficient at self defence by either boxing, martial arts or even the odd bit of stout stick placed in the boot of the car in certain high crime areas then it's little more than common sense. Unfortunately with the US we're talking about a nation whose expenditure on "Defence" is greater than the next TEN countries combined in the graph, it does not practice defence but active regime change, meddling and keeping the Military Industrial Complex ticking over nicely over the blood of millions of innocents around the world. 

This isn't a fair fight scenario but an unfair shooting fish in a barrel which they like. The reason Mattis the war criminal who thinks killing is a hoot has refrained from this particular fight isn't because he's a hero or has diplomatic nous but because he understands the language of force, it's simple bully maths. 

[Hamster]

Even Nige thinks it's a bad idea. 

[matone]

Have non of them learnt even a  tiny bit from the faux pas of Vietnam,Iraq ,Afghanistan ,Libya et all ? Or are they all just mad ,evil people ,hell bent on unrest ?

Recent events do make you wonder.....

[Hamster]

Just now, matone said:

Have non of them learnt even a  tiny bit from the faux pas of Vietnam,Iraq ,Afghanistan ,Libya et all ? Or are they all just mad ,evil people ,hell bent on unrest ?

Recent events do make you wonder.....

I'm afraid the bleeding obvious is just too bleeding obvious at times, yes they ARE hell bent on unrest, this isn't about compassion for a few Arab lives otherwise they'd do something about Saudi crimes in Yemen for a start, it's about prolonging war in the middle east because there is no money in Peace. 

[matone]

It does seem to be the case !

As one conflict is wrapped up ,another is created by some means ,it seems....

Edited April 13, 2018 by matone

[Scully]

34 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Yes there is that side to it and perfectly valid too but context is needed here, if for instance someone chose to become particularly proficient at self defence by either boxing, martial arts or even the odd bit of stout stick placed in the boot of the car in certain high crime areas then it's little more than common sense. Unfortunately with the US we're talking about a nation whose expenditure on "Defence" is greater than the next TEN countries combined in the graph, it does not practice defence but active regime change, meddling and keeping the Military Industrial Complex ticking over nicely over the blood of millions of innocents around the world. 

This isn't a fair fight scenario but an unfair shooting fish in a barrel which they like. The reason Mattis the war criminal who thinks killing is a hoot has refrained from this particular fight isn't because he's a hero or has diplomatic nous but because he understands the language of force, it's simple bully maths. 

It has always been so. When you break down each country to its playground equivalent you’re not telling us anything we don’t already know; in my experience of playground bullies you either met force with force, ( hopefully a greater one by getting mates to back you up ) or you kept a low profile and hoped they wouldn’t see you.  What do you intend to do? 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

I'm afraid the bleeding obvious is just too bleeding obvious at times, yes they ARE hell bent on unrest, this isn't about compassion for a few Arab lives otherwise they'd do something about Saudi crimes in Yemen for a start, it's about prolonging war in the middle east because there is no money in Peace. 

[Westward]

Many people have referred to the old saying which (roughly) goes: "He who ignores the lessons of history is doomed to repeat them".

I honestly don't know if politicians and decision makers really are ignorant of history or whether they believe themselves to be so infallible that they can succeed when no one ever has before.

Uninvited meddling in other nations and societies always fails, usually at great cost in lives and treasure and often with a legacy of hate and mistrust for many generations. Nowhere in known history has this proved to be the case more than the middle east, particularly the Arab countries - and yet no President or Prime Minister has ever shown the slightest sign that they recognise the mess the west has caused over the last 200 or more years by interfering in the region.

I recommend to anyone following this thread to read A World of Trouble by Patrick Tyler (pub. 2009). The book explains how successive US Presidents from Eisenhower to G.W. Bush utterly failed (or in the case of Reagan not even try) to comprehend the dynamics of the Arab nations and their respective situations relative to Israel and the west. It also explains how Syria came to be ruled by Bashir al-Assad, the special needs younger brother of the extremely smart Bassel al-Assad who was killed in a car crash in 1994. Their father, Hafez al-Assad, the strong President who ruled Syria from 1971 until his death in 2000 never believed that Bashir was up to the job, but the family dynasty had to continue and the Syrian people generally understand that, even though he's not well liked.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Westward
typo

[Hamster]

2 hours ago, Westward said:

Many people have referred to the old saying which (roughly) goes: "He who ignores the lessons of history is doomed to repeat them".

I honestly don't know if politicians and decision makers really are ignorant of history or whether they believe themselves to be so infallible that they can succeed when no one ever has before.

 

I am one of those who doesn't subscribe to the theory that these mistakes are being repeated without or despite the benefit or knowledge of history, in fact it is the exact opposite. Those who claim Iraq proves we made a mistake are unable to grasp the sheer level of evil at work here. It was no mistake, it went exactly to plan, destruction and the explosive birth of many Islamist terrorist factions  in the aftermath and the sectarian in fighting was precisely the intent all along. The reason they want Assad gone is the same, he's (in ME context) a moderate who not only tolerates but welcomes other religions. The mullah's in Iran are no saints but what will replace them if they're ever removed by Western force doesn't bear thinking about. Russia knows this and won't allow it so close to their territory. 

3 hours ago, Scully said:

It has always been so. When you break down each country to its playground equivalent you’re not telling us anything we don’t already know; in my experience of playground bullies you either met force with force, ( hopefully a greater one by getting mates to back you up ) or you kept a low profile and hoped they wouldn’t see you.  What do you intend to do? 

Nothing, all I can do is warn people of the fake news. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Hamster

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I am one of those who doesn't subscribe to the theory that these mistakes are being repeated without or despite the benefit or knowledge of history, in fact it is the exact opposite. Those who claim Iraq proves we made a mistake are unable to grasp the sheer level of evil at work here. It was no mistake, it went exactly to plan, destruction and the explosive birth of many Islamist terrorist factions  in the aftermath and the sectarian in fighting was precisely the intent all along. The reason they want Assad gone is the same, he's (in ME context) a moderate who not only tolerates but welcomes other religions. The mullah's in Iran are no saints but what will replace them if they're ever removed by Western force doesn't bear thinking about. Russia knows this and won't allow it so close to their territory. 

Nothing, all I can do is warn people of the fake news. 

Some people will read that and shake their heads, thinking 'stupid conspiracy theorist' 

But the super powers have been using false flag events and subterfuge since the end of WW2, its not even a secret anymore, that many conflicts were starting by using propaganda and set piece events, to make sure public opinion was on side before a highly profitable war was started.
Do you believe the general public in this country want us to go to war with Syria, or Iran, or Russia ?
Of course they dont, whos going to pay for it, and who profits ?
But show them some dead babies and alleged nerve agent attacks on their streets (and then someone elses streets ) and youve then got the attention of some of them at least.
And support...

The problem is, people dont want to believe that that is what our governments do.
We 're sposed to be the good guys, the heroes, who bring 'freedom' and democracy, putting an end to tyranny in some dustbowl on the other side of the world.
Dont get me wrong, some of our lads do heroic things, but quite often innocent people get caught in the crossfire, collateral damage .
The Americans have a formula for how much collateral is acceptable, as long as at least some 'insurgents' get eliminated.
Those insurgents that were 'freedom fighters' struggling against the Soviets, armed by the US ,are now the bad guys fighting against the west, just farmers with an occupying army on their land, and all because a CIA asset from Saudi set up shop there 20 years ago and supposedly masterminded 9/11.
16 years later, what are we still doing there? What did we achieve ? Nothing.
Vietnam, hundreds of thousands dead, defoliants, napalm, trillions of dollars in arms and reparations, and a suicide level of vets that shocks to this day, what did they achieve in their 10 year war, Nothing.

They need war, conflict = profit ,all those bombs missiles and bullets fired need replacing, and they dont come cheap.
If they really wanted assad gone ,they could have killed him years ago, wheres the profit in that ?

Its comical to hear peoples hand wringing over some people killed in an (alleged ) chemical attack, when we have been shooting and blowing apart civilians in the middle east since Gulf war 1, with a death toll that some estimate is in excess of a million people.

[Hamster]

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Some people will read that and shake their heads, thinking 'stupid conspiracy theorist' 

But the super powers have been using false flag events and subterfuge since the end of WW2, its not even a secret anymore, that many conflicts were starting by using propaganda and set piece events, to make sure public opinion was on side before a highly profitable war was started.
Do you believe the general public in this country want us to go to war with Syria, or Iran, or Russia ?
Of course they dont, whos going to pay for it, and who profits ?
But show them some dead babies and alleged nerve agent attacks on their streets (and then someone elses streets ) and youve then got the attention of some of them at least.
And support...

The problem is, people dont want to believe that that is what our governments do.
We 're sposed to be the good guys, the heroes, who bring 'freedom' and democracy, putting an end to tyranny in some dustbowl on the other side of the world.
Dont get me wrong, some of our lads do heroic things, but quite often innocent people get caught in the crossfire, collateral damage .
The Americans have a formula for how much collateral is acceptable, as long as at least some 'insurgents' get eliminated.
Those insurgents that were 'freedom fighters' struggling against the Soviets, armed by the US ,are now the bad guys fighting against the west, just farmers with an occupying army on their land, and all because a CIA asset from Saudi set up shop there 20 years ago and supposedly masterminded 9/11.
16 years later, what are we still doing there? What did we achieve ? Nothing.
Vietnam, hundreds of thousands dead, defoliants, napalm, trillions of dollars in arms and reparations, and a suicide level of vets that shocks to this day, what did they achieve in their 10 year war, Nothing.

They need war, conflict = profit ,all those bombs missiles and bullets fired need replacing, and they dont come cheap.
If they really wanted assad gone ,they could have killed him years ago, wheres the profit in that ?

Its comical to hear peoples hand wringing over some people killed in an (alleged ) chemical attack, when we have been shooting and blowing apart civilians in the middle east since Gulf war 1, with a death toll that some estimate is in excess of a million people.

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - a harsh critique of the situation, but I find it hard to argue with any of it.

[Harnser]

The trouble with the Middle East is they have never been able claw their way out of the Stone Age . Take away the despots and they all want to kill each other . My opinion is ,stay out of it let them sort themselves out .

 

harnser

[TIGHTCHOKE]

29 minutes ago, Harnser said:

The trouble with the Middle East is they have never been able claw their way out of the Stone Age . Take away the despots and they all want to kill each other . My opinion is ,stay out of it let them sort themselves out .

Sound advice!

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, Harnser said:

The trouble with the Middle East is they have never been able claw their way out of the Stone Age . Take away the despots and they all want to kill each other . My opinion is ,stay out of it let them sort themselves out .

 

harnser

The trouble with the Middle East is we cant stop meddling and controlling it.
Since the Ottomans were removed after WW1 , we have been pulling the strings and installing OUR despots, saddam, the shah, and many more ,all installed by us, the french or Americans, so we could make sure the oil kept flowing and keep the Russians out.
Yes they are tribal, yes they can be savage to each other, but we have cultivated those traits to divide and conquer, look for example at Iraq after GW2 ,descended into sectarian and religious violence that was kept in check by saddam, and no Im not saying he was a nice guy, he was a monster, but we removed him and left nothing behind.
You think that these people want what you want, free elections and mcdonalds burgers ? They dont, they want order amongst all the classes, tribes and religions that make up THEIR country, and if it takes a tyrant to keep order, then thats what they want.
If you think they are primitive, thats because thats where we want them, yes let them sort themselves out by all means, but they have something we want dont they ?
So we cant leave them alone.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I bet we stop meddling when the oil runs out!

[islandgun]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Some people will read that and shake their heads, thinking 'stupid conspiracy theorist' 

But the super powers have been using false flag events and subterfuge since the end of WW2, its not even a secret anymore, that many conflicts were starting by using propaganda and set piece events, to make sure public opinion was on side before a highly profitable war was started.
Do you believe the general public in this country want us to go to war with Syria, or Iran, or Russia ?
Of course they dont, whos going to pay for it, and who profits ?
But show them some dead babies and alleged nerve agent attacks on their streets (and then someone elses streets ) and youve then got the attention of some of them at least.
And support...

The problem is, people dont want to believe that that is what our governments do.
We 're sposed to be the good guys, the heroes, who bring 'freedom' and democracy, putting an end to tyranny in some dustbowl on the other side of the world.
Dont get me wrong, some of our lads do heroic things, but quite often innocent people get caught in the crossfire, collateral damage .
The Americans have a formula for how much collateral is acceptable, as long as at least some 'insurgents' get eliminated.
Those insurgents that were 'freedom fighters' struggling against the Soviets, armed by the US ,are now the bad guys fighting against the west, just farmers with an occupying army on their land, and all because a CIA asset from Saudi set up shop there 20 years ago and supposedly masterminded 9/11.
16 years later, what are we still doing there? What did we achieve ? Nothing.
Vietnam, hundreds of thousands dead, defoliants, napalm, trillions of dollars in arms and reparations, and a suicide level of vets that shocks to this day, what did they achieve in their 10 year war, Nothing.

They need war, conflict = profit ,all those bombs missiles and bullets fired need replacing, and they dont come cheap.
If they really wanted assad gone ,they could have killed him years ago, wheres the profit in that ?

Its comical to hear peoples hand wringing over some people killed in an (alleged ) chemical attack, when we have been shooting and blowing apart civilians in the middle east since Gulf war 1, with a death toll that some estimate is in excess of a million people.

[matone]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Some people will read that and shake their heads, thinking 'stupid conspiracy theorist' 

But the super powers have been using false flag events and subterfuge since the end of WW2, its not even a secret anymore, that many conflicts were starting by using propaganda and set piece events, to make sure public opinion was on side before a highly profitable war was started.
Do you believe the general public in this country want us to go to war with Syria, or Iran, or Russia ?
Of course they dont, whos going to pay for it, and who profits ?
But show them some dead babies and alleged nerve agent attacks on their streets (and then someone elses streets ) and youve then got the attention of some of them at least.
And support...

The problem is, people dont want to believe that that is what our governments do.
We 're sposed to be the good guys, the heroes, who bring 'freedom' and democracy, putting an end to tyranny in some dustbowl on the other side of the world.
Dont get me wrong, some of our lads do heroic things, but quite often innocent people get caught in the crossfire, collateral damage .
The Americans have a formula for how much collateral is acceptable, as long as at least some 'insurgents' get eliminated.
Those insurgents that were 'freedom fighters' struggling against the Soviets, armed by the US ,are now the bad guys fighting against the west, just farmers with an occupying army on their land, and all because a CIA asset from Saudi set up shop there 20 years ago and supposedly masterminded 9/11.
16 years later, what are we still doing there? What did we achieve ? Nothing.
Vietnam, hundreds of thousands dead, defoliants, napalm, trillions of dollars in arms and reparations, and a suicide level of vets that shocks to this day, what did they achieve in their 10 year war, Nothing.

They need war, conflict = profit ,all those bombs missiles and bullets fired need replacing, and they dont come cheap.
If they really wanted assad gone ,they could have killed him years ago, wheres the profit in that ?

Its comical to hear peoples hand wringing over some people killed in an (alleged ) chemical attack, when we have been shooting and blowing apart civilians in the middle east since Gulf war 1, with a death toll that some estimate is in excess of a million people.

..and it`s all there in plain view for those who wish to see!

[matone]