Side by Side Club

[JJsDad]

On 07/05/2018 at 16:36, AYA117 said:

My 'old AYA No.2, it is my intention over the coming months to bring her back to a more 'pretty' state.

Hi AYA117

I accept that it`s not going to happen within the next few day`s. But will look forward with interest on your feedback on having the barrels re-blacked with the forum member we spoke about. I have got a pair here that need the same treatment and my previous people in East Grinstead have retired and sold up.

[AYA117]

21 hours ago, JJsDad said:

Hi AYA117

I accept that it`s not going to happen within the next few day`s. But will look forward with interest on your feedback on having the barrels re-blacked with the forum member we spoke about. I have got a pair here that need the same treatment and my previous people in East Grinstead have retired and sold up.

Yes I will do, the old AYA is looking better by the day, so can I stay a Side By Side Club member now?

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, AYA117 said:

can I stay a Side By Side Club member now?

You should consider yourself currently as an associate member, for; by your own admission, 20 years use without the TLC that the gun evidently needed.

However, pending the being given by a quorum of at least 3 members on your restoration efforts, supported by photograpic evidence, you may consider yourself a full member.

[hairysausagefingers]

Side by side club - yes please, count me in. I've got a 1970's Ugartechea which I've stripped back and refinished and a 1939/40 Webley and Scott non ejector. I think that makes it pre 700 series. 2.5 in chambers on the latter. 

Pretty boring wood on both to be honest. I now find myself wanting a sidelock with a pretty piece of walnut.  Might have to wait a few months whilst i get my funding in order though. 

[AYA117]

Keep us posted on your quest to find your Sidelock, good looking Webley.

[JJsDad]

On 22/04/2018 at 15:29, JohnfromUK said:

No 1 is also hand engraved whereas (certainly more recent) No 2s are I understand 'roll engraved'.

There is an AYA No: 2, single trigger 20 bore just been put up for sale on GT which apparently dates from 1993. Compare the engraving around the fences, vent screw and front of the action where it meets the fore-end iron with an earlier gun, as posted by AYA117 a couple of pages back. While still a good looking gun, the lack of drop-points and simplified engraving indicates a cost cutting exercise was going on at the time. As you noted, the lock plates give all the indications from the photograph of being rolled on.

Edited May 14, 2018 by JJsDad

[AYA117]

4 hours ago, JJsDad said:

There is an AYA No: 2, single trigger 20 bore just been put up for sale on GT which apparently dates from 1993. Compare the engraving around the fences, vent screw and front of the action where it meets the fore-end iron with an earlier gun, as posted by AYA117 a couple of pages back. While still a good looking gun, the lack of drop-points and simplified engraving indicates a cost cutting exercise was going on at the time. As you noted, the lock plates give all the indications from the photograph of being rolled on.

If you mean the one for sale in Hampshire selling for £1,950 it is a model 722 and not a No.2 hence the lack of engraving.

Edited May 14, 2018 by AYA117

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, AYA117 said:

the one for sale in Hampshire selling for £1,950 it is a model 722 and not a No.2

Just shows even the dealers get mixed up, as he is advertising it as a No: 2. I usually look for the gold line cocking indicator that tends to seperate the No: 2 from those below, but with the bounce back from the flash when it was photographed its not very clear. `Let the buyer beware` clearly applies at that price !

[AYA117]

The stock from the No.2 3" Showing the same attention to detail as the one from 1964, this was however a replacement stock, anyone know who the stocker was?

[AYA117]

19 hours ago, JJsDad said:

Just shows even the dealers get mixed up, as he is advertising it as a No: 2. I usually look for the gold line cocking indicator that tends to seperate the No: 2 from those below, but with the bounce back from the flash when it was photographed its not very clear. `Let the buyer beware` clearly applies at that price !

And on Gunstar there is a Countryman pretending to be a 722, but it is a good price for a good condition Countryman.

[hairysausagefingers]

On 03/05/2018 at 22:18, buze said:

I think that perhaps a way of 'teaching' everyone is to go out and shoot these SxS out. *Especially* on clays. Go to your local ground and shoot clay with your SxS, and if you do that well quite a few people will start looking at their own O/U or S/A with a raised eyebrow...

I think everyone (apart form people on this topic!) believe that SxS are massively inferior to a modern gun somehow, while the reality is, if you are a good shot, it's probably about 90+% as good as a O/U gun. Now to be honest, I KNOW I can't be /as/ good as with my fancy clay gun, I know for example my hand are in the way for some crossers that requires 'that' sort of lead and you need to shoot 'blind' -- but it's still OK!

 

So my suggestion is, everyone should take the SxS out regularly, dress the part, and beat them at their own game :-) 

For Steel, you have to remember than a LOT of guns are 2 3/4 -- not just SxS's -- Even my modern Guerinni is 2"3/4, and I have to be careful when buying steel to make sure it's not 3". So banning lead would have a much, MUCH wider impact on the gun market than the old english, it'd be devastating for *everyone* really. I think the current status quo is due to the fact that a lot of people are anti plastic wad -- and that steel comes mostly in plastic wad, while a lot of Lead carts come in fiber. Bit of a case of 'choose your poison' :-)

 

Too right Buze, I'd done some work on my Ugartechea a few months ago and rolled up at the local clay ground on the way to work for a practice. I had no idea how the fancy electronic traps worked so they paired me up with one of their regulars to show me ropes. He couldn't believe what I pulled out of the slip and couldn't wait to have a go with it himself. It was weird - like he'd never seen one before! Not quite a full convert, but he certainly enjoyed it. 

[Old Boggy]

On 15 May 2018 at 10:29, AYA117 said:

And on Gunstar there is a Countryman pretending to be a 722, but it is a good price for a good condition Countryman.

It is surprising (or maybe not !) that gunshops quite often advertise guns, particularly AYAs, as the wrong model. There is currently an AYA model 400 (the precursor of the No.3) being advertised on GT as a Yeoman 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Old Boggy

[JJsDad]

2 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

It is surprising (or maybe not !) that gunshops quite often advertise guns, particularly AYAs, as the wrong model

It`s very much a case of "Let the Buyer Beware" particularly with AYA`s, and with the sidelock range of guns in particular. Whether its a genuine attempt to deceive or inexperience on behalf of the dealer is a debatable point. To further illustrate your point quoted above, there is a well respected midlands dealer currently advertising both an AYA No: 2 and an AYA 117 on GS; he is describing them both as No: 2s, when even from the photograph`s it is clearly evident from the engraving, that they are not. While he wouldnt fool most of the enthusiasts on this forum not everyone is an `AYA nerd` and can readily identify all the different models that have been imported over the years.  If you pay top dollar for a gun believing (or being told) that it`s a No: 2; and subsequently find that its a lesser (and less popular grade) when you come to sell or trade up, you could face a substantial loss.

As the dealer is supposed to be the professional expert in such matters and have the correct gauges and measuring equipment to confirm the condition of a gun, its a fact of life that while some are, many are not. I for one would be exceptionally wary of any dealer who is selling an elderly British gun, but does not have the equipment to measure and assure me of the wall thickness and bore wear over its proofed size.

Edited May 18, 2018 by JJsDad

[AYA117]

I hope to find an AYA Model 56 being sold as an £800 No.2, bet it never works that way around. 

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

As the dealer is supposed to be the professional expert in such matters and have the correct gauges and measuring equipment to ***** the condition of a gun, its a fact of life that while some are, many are not. I for one would be exceptionally wary of any dealer who is selling an elderly British gun, but does not have the equipment to measure and assure me of the wall thickness and bore wear over its proofed size.

This is very true.  Unfortunately, they divide into simple dealers, who seem to simply buy and sell guns - often with very little knowledge, and knowledgeable dealers (who are often gunsmiths, or have gunsmiths on the premises) who have the proper knowledge, tools etc.

Some (30 - 40) years ago I used to go round some auctions, and invested in the correct internal bore micrometer, chamber length gauge, wall thickness gauge, trigger pull gauge, stock measuring tools etc. - and learned how to use them.  I also learned about proof rules and proof marks, and spent time with a family friend who was a keen collector and had a great knowledge, both of sporting guns and shooting matters.  I learned a lot in that time.

I have been in some gun dealers (some quite well known) where the 'front of shop' staff had virtually no idea of anything that wasn't written on the price tag.  In most cases there was a behind the scenes person who was knowledgeable, but he wasn't always on site ......... so you could get some very bad information in some places.

AyA are always 'difficult' because there are really about half a dozen 'main' (s/s) models, No 1,2,3,4,Yeoman and XXV.  Others, 53, 56, 116, 117, BQBL are around, plus there have been some 'made to order' specials.  I have a friend with a model 53 with 25" barrels for example.

[demonwolf444]

20 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

This is very true.  Unfortunately, they divide into simple dealers, who seem to simply buy and sell guns - often with very little knowledge, and knowledgeable dealers (who are often gunsmiths, or have gunsmiths on the premises) who have the proper knowledge, tools etc.

Some (30 - 40) years ago I used to go round some auctions, and invested in the correct internal bore micrometer, chamber length gauge, wall thickness gauge, trigger pull gauge, stock measuring tools etc. - and learned how to use them.  I also learned about proof rules and proof marks, and spent time with a family friend who was a keen collector and had a great knowledge, both of sporting guns and shooting matters.  I learned a lot in that time.

I have been in some gun dealers (some quite well known) where the 'front of shop' staff had virtually no idea of anything that wasn't written on the price tag.  In most cases there was a behind the scenes person who was knowledgeable, but he wasn't always on site ......... so you could get some very bad information in some places.

AyA are always 'difficult' because there are really about half a dozen 'main' (s/s) models, No 1,2,3,4,Yeoman and XXV.  Others, 53, 56, 116, 117, BQBL are around, plus there have been some 'made to order' specials.  I have a friend with a model 53 with 25" barrels for example.

When i asked a large gun shop in the south for minimum wall thicknesses the answer i was given was "about 1mm ish looks like." and that was after waiting on the phone for someone who supposedly knew what they were doing to turn up - I took the risk and it was absolutely fine in this case with the min wall at 25 thou.

Also been sold a gun that was out of proof then been told "well it was cheap for a reason"... like i wouldn't check!?!? - the laws the law for a reason too - i was so annoyed with the guy who thought since he had posted it i could either keep it or send it back at my expense - should have just told him to explain himself to his firearms dept.

Also been sold a gun and when enquiring about proof i was told it was proofed under one set of rules - and that it was in proof - when it arrived i measured it to find that by the rules he reckoned it was proofed under it was actually out of proof. Further examination showed that it actually was in proof as the vendor had misread the marks.

[AYA117]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have a friend with a model 53 with 25" barrels for example.

Now that is a gun I would like to own 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, AYA117 said:

Now that is a gun I would like to own 

He shoots well with it.  It is left handed (as he is) and No 2 of a pair (he only has no 2 as he bought it 2nd hand).  It isn't a gun I much like as it is heavier than my No 1, and doesn't feel as agile.  Having said that, as it is about as bad a fit to me as you could get (without a crossover stock anyway!), it is no surprise that it doesn't 'feel right'.

[AYA117]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

he only has no 2 as he bought it 2nd hand

I wonder what happened to No.1 of the pair ? And being a pair I assume there should be a makers case for them.

[JohnfromUK]

23 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

I wonder what happened to No.1 of the pair ? And being a pair I assume there should be a makers case for them.

I have a feeling No 1 of the pair was written off in a motor accident, fire or something - which is why No 2 came up for sale.  No idea on case.  If there was an accident, this may have gone the same way.  My friend has had the gun about 30 years plus, so it is a long time ago.

[AYA117]

21 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have a feeling No 1 of the pair was written off in a motor accident, fire or something - which is why No 2 came up for sale.  No idea on case.  If there was an accident, this may have gone the same way.  My friend has had the gun about 30 years plus, so it is a long time ago.

Very sad, as I believe AYAs pair for life. 

[Gerry78]

1979 Aya Magnum great gun use it for pigeons and wildfowling 

[hairysausagefingers]

An old neighbour had a similar gun I used to use occasionally, but it was single trigger and prone to the odd double discharge, which made things interesting because you never knew when it was coming. Pretty sure that was 3" too. Would have (ahem) been pre 79 though!

As a teenager I can still remember him dropping an incredibly high, long and fast pigeon with it. He's sadly no longer with us as of a few months ago.  Funny how some shots stick with you. I do have a quiet hankering for a beaver fore-end (amongst my many other (shotgun) hankerings).

 

[matone]

31 minutes ago, hairysausagefingers said:

An old neighbour had a similar gun I used to use occasionally, but it was single trigger and prone to the odd double discharge, which made things interesting because you never knew when it was coming. Pretty sure that was 3" too. Would have (ahem) been pre 79 though!

As a teenager I can still remember him dropping an incredibly high, long and fast pigeon with it. He's sadly no longer with us as of a few months ago.  Funny how some shots stick with you. I do have a quiet hankering for a beaver fore-end (amongst my many other (shotgun) hankerings).

 

More likely a Matador,usually pistol grip & beavertail forend but I`ve only seen 2 3/4 " chambered ones,many dealers confuse them with No3 magnums..........

[Gerry78]

Mine is a proper aya no3 magnum made in 1979 email aya last year they give me information on it double trigger on mine i know some matadors had single triggers

Better photo