Jump to content

Side by Side Club


AYA117

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 3.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Robertt,

I can offer two 'suggestions', but both may be wrong.

  1. In the late 20th century, Holland and Holland were under the same ownership as the Webley and Scott business - and there were a range of boxlocks based on the old Webley and Scott designs. They had names like the 'Chatsworth', The 'Bowood', the 'Kinmount' etc.  However these were decent quality and I don't think these would have shot loose easily.  They had previously had boxlocks made in Birmingham by smaller firms, notably AA Browns, but others as well.  These were of generally excellent quality and again would be unlikely to shoot loose.  I think all were Birmingham proofed.  They were often 'first guns' as though not cheap, were much cheaper that a London built Holland and Holland sidelock.
  2. There was a period (much earlier) when Belgian guns were given 'spurious' names that were like 'best English' names.  Examples such as Westley Richards, J. Purdey, Holland and Holland etc.  These were poor quality stuff and the equivalent of modern day counterfeit goods.  They carried Belgian proof marks and were often considered 'keepers guns'.

It is also possible that you had one of the guns listed under suggestion 1 that had been misued (such as shooting unsuitable loads/cartridge case lengths), then poorly repaired.

Edited by JohnfromUK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Robertt said:

There was no engraving, just the Holland & Holland logo.

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by the Holland & Holland logo ?

I was shown a boxlock non-ejector gun 9 or 10 years ago that was, according to the owner a Holland & Holland. The reason he believed this; was its was stamped `H&H` on either side of the action. I say stamped because the lettering was done with metal marking stamps, not engraved. Not the sort of practise I would associate with this maker. I quick look at the proof marks indicated the gun was proofed in Belgium and almost certainly was built there. Rather than cause offence, I didnt point out where the gun originated from although I can imagine what the sales manager of Hollands would say if the gun was offered as a trade in !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by the Holland & Holland logo ?

I was shown a boxlock non-ejector gun 9 or 10 years ago that was, according to the owner a Holland & Holland. The reason he believed this; was its was stamped `H&H` on either side of the action. I say stamped because the lettering was done with metal marking stamps, not engraved. Not the sort of practise I would associate with this maker. I quick look at the proof marks indicated the gun was proofed in Belgium and almost certainly was built there. Rather than cause offence, I didnt point out where the gun originated from although I can imagine what the sales manager of Hollands would say if the gun was offered as a trade in !

It actually had ' Holland & Holland ' engraved on the side of the action, although I very much doubt they made it.

 

Edited by Robertt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holland and Holland over the years bought in guns from various makers to sell under their "brand" .These were mostly box locks and were usually signed on the action H & H with the Holland address on the barrels .

This was sometimes supplemented with"Shot and Regulated by Holland & Holland ".Although the ones made for them by W & S in the seventies went out as finished guns with bored chokes

These guns were sold as a cheaper range than their "best guns ".

I have seen several faked H & H guns where the logo has been added to a nondescript  A&D in the hope of giving it some value . But as with most fakes of this kind the faker has not had enough knowledge or spent enough money on doing it right ie. naming the action but not the barrels / using a poor quality gun .

4 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Konor - were sporting arms still being made in England in 1917? - I would have thought that most Gunmakers would have been switched to military production?

The manufacturing methods of sporting guns like those made by Hollands and military weaponry were so different that this was not possible  . Companies like Webley & Scott could have and did turn most of there production to military in both wars . Shotguns were still made . During WW1 shotguns were made with rifled chokes for shooting at airships and air craft as well as for civil defense and military use . A few guns made for private sale still being made by the remaining craftsmen who may well have been in their 70's and still working 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi bruno22rf my date of 1917 was from memory of reading up on F.Williams just after I bought the gun. I have looked through notes I had made then . My gun has F Williams London and Birmingham on the rib ,they were listed in the London directory from 1912 to 1918 only so the gun dates from then. So where did I get 1917 from ? In a reprint catalogue originally printed when F Williams was in London I highlighted a gun like my own which cost £17 so I reckon I remembered the 17 and mixed it in with the 1912 /1918 dates. See photo below

image.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you.

That's proper user feedback.

I will probably buy it and will  keep an eye on the issue you've highlighted. 

I mounted this gun in the shop an embarrassingly amount of times, trying to catch it out but it pointed where I was looking everytime.

Only downside is nice 28" AYA No 2 is being PX' ed to fund it.

 

 

Edited by Robertt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Johnfromuk sorry, I've just spotted your reply re BLNE 'Holland and Holland '.

I think it was a  carp european forgery which was sold to me by a since proven, shyster. To add insult to injury it was well out of proof and only worth £20 in a part ex.

2. Re Fabarm Classis 20 bore, this gun is as seductive as a super model who fancies you and owns a pub.

The round action is a bonus like her mums after you too 😂

Edited by Robertt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Robertt said:

Johnfromuk sorry, I've just spotted your reply re BLNE 'Holland and Holland

No apology to me needed!  Sorry you have had this mishap.

8 hours ago, Robertt said:

To add insult to injury it was well out of proof and only worth £20 in a part ex.

You are (presumably) aware that for him to sell an out of proof gun is a criminal offence in addition to being dishonest to sell a 'counterfeit' gun?  I hope that he has sorted this out fully to your satisfaction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 07:17, matone said:

That is wisdom. Buying into the flashy,fast harlot down the pub will end in tears ,LOL.

I  have a No.2 that was made in 1964, I have owned it for over 20 years and in that time has had a lot of use and apart from a broken top lever spring ( a very easy repair ) it has never let me down, they are a lot of gun for the money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30/11/2018 at 21:11, Robertt said:

Only downside is nice 28" AYA No 2 is being PX' ed to fund it.

So just to clarify, chop in a gun costing new today upward of £6500, for one with known problems costing a third of that ! Cant quite get my head round the logic of this.

In the property market its refered to as downsizing.

Edited by JJsDad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of my sleepers from the Cabinet, a Lincoln Jeffries "The Lightweight" 12g - it really is light, built around 1890 with Damascus Barrels (both pitted but well within proof), paid pennies for her about 2 years ago - proof that it's always worth searching shops that sell mainly modern Guns with the barrels the wrong way up!

jeffrey.jpg

jeffrey 2.jpg

jeffrey 3.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

One of my sleepers from the Cabinet, a Lincoln Jeffries "The Lightweight" 12g - it really is light, built around 1890 with Damascus Barrels (both pitted but well within proof), paid pennies for her about 2 years ago - proof that it's always worth searching shops that sell mainly modern Guns with the barrels the wrong way up!

jeffrey.jpg

jeffrey 2.jpg

jeffrey 3.jpg

I like it

 

Blackpowder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, AYA117 said:

I  have a No.2 that was made in 1964, I have owned it for over 20 years and in that time has had a lot of use and apart from a broken top lever spring ( a very easy repair ) it has never let me down, they are a lot of gun for the money.

Agree,there are thousands of AYA`s  out there still working away ....tried,tested and proven !

5 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

One of my sleepers from the Cabinet, a Lincoln Jeffries "The Lightweight" 12g - it really is light, built around 1890 with Damascus Barrels (both pitted but well within proof), paid pennies for her about 2 years ago - proof that it's always worth searching shops that sell mainly modern Guns with the barrels the wrong way up!

jeffrey.jpg

jeffrey 2.jpg

jeffrey 3.jpg

Lovely work on that sunken rib !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, matone said:

Agree,there are thousands of AYA`s  out there still working away ....tried,tested and proven !

I believe AyA No 2 was the UK best selling s/s gun at one time.  You seldom hear anything bad about them, and often hear good about them.  The only real criticism I have heard concerns the single trigger option, which apparently isn't the best about ....... but who wants a single trigger anyway?  (Sadly I do have some).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...