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26 minutes ago, Dibble said:

The Guy from Holts looked at the proof marks and said between 1929 and 1954 which seems like a wide spread but it's only 25 years. I suppose a lot happened in those 25 years. does the chamber length or forend give a clue.

Looking at EJ Churchills history they didn't actually make much themselves anyway (they still don't).

By the way whats that type of forend called and why has everyone moved to the button in the end type?

 

I understand a lot of Churchill boxlocks were made by A A Brown!

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37 minutes ago, Dibble said:

By the way whats that type of forend called and why has everyone moved to the button in the end type?

I believe yours is called a "Deeley latch".  The other type with the button is an "Anson pushrod".

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 Briefly .

It is called the Deeley Edge catch .Invented by [first name forgotten ] Deeley in the 1870's who was a manager at Westley Richards and was used on their guns up until modern times .

The push button was invented by or patented by , there is evidence of earlier forms , by [again first name forgotten] Anson forman at Westley Richards in the 1870's .

The names of Anson and Deeley are  most associated with the now  universal boxlock design know through out the world as well as the Deeley box ejector . The Birmingham trade frequently referred to a "boxlock " gun as an "Anson ".

The Deeley catch had the advantage that it was made as a unit  then  fitted by the stocker  . The Anson push rod needed more machining but was more suited to large production hence its increase in popularity . 

Small companies , often one or two man outfits who made guns or finished guns [thats buying in barreled actions , stocking and turning them out ] for the trade , used the Deeley catch as it was cheaper , required less machining so remained popular .

It is still debated as to which is the best  

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15 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I understand a lot of Churchill boxlocks were made by A A Brown!

Churchill 's bought the old Birmingham company of Wrights who had made their boxlocks for years .Wrights were in Bath St until they were moved out of the center of the trade to the jewelry quarter .Up until this they were always called Wrights rather than Churchill .Several of my colleagues worked for them .

Over the years Churchill had guns made by different makers either buying barreled actions for the likes of Webley and Scott who  were in fact both owned by the same holding company .

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Posted (edited)

Finally back from travelling with work and had a chance for a deeper look

 

IMG-0803-2.jpg

 

there are two crowns just in front of the flats and something that looks like two crossed swords on the bottom rib. They don't have a number 1 below and have a letter with two vertical lines above eg.H,N,

Took a while to get the action off and as I did part of the toplever spring dropped out which explains its weak action.

Is it a 13 bore, that would explain the false reading from a choke gauge. If so why? what are the advantages

Edited by Dibble

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Posted (edited)

It is a 12 bore . The 13 over 1 indicates the bore size was .719" at proof  This was normal for many guns of the period .1925 rules of proof .

This is assuming it was .719" as it could have been any size above that up to .729" due to the way the bores were "plugged ". If a .719" plug would enter up to the nine inch mark , but would not take a .729" it was marked at the lower size .

There appears to be a proof date stamp on the short rib near the extractor leg hole .

The crowns are the provisional proof marks 

The only accurate way of measuring chokes is to compare the chokes to the bore diameter say 4 inches behind the choke 

Edited by Gunman

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A clear photo of the crossed swords stamp on the short rib may reveal the proof date?

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I can't get a good view of the crossed swords but I can see there is only a number above so this all seems to say 1929-1941, I'll try and get a USB microscope in there at the weekend.

The follow up questions for Gunman are:

1.why did barrels vary from  .719"-0.729 could they not make them spot on? I can understand stopping short at the smaller bore rather than go over.

2.What are "provisional Proof Marks"

3.Have you thought of writing a book? I would buy a copy.

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In the time this was made barrels were bored spill a spill boring bar, This was a 12" long "square" bar with a sharp  leading edge . It was backed with a wooden wedge or spill to expand it so that it bore against the inside of the tube ,this could be packed out with strips of card to expand it further . It rotated slowly as it was moved down the barrel scraping small amounts of metal away . 

After boring the tubes were lapped out with a lead plug dipped in an abrasive paste to polish  .

This was not the most scientific method but worked well for a couple  of hundred years .

Barrels in those times were measured with plugs as micrometer and modern instruments were not available or very expensive and the skill of the borers was such that they could be very accurate .

This said it was possible that whilst boring a "pick up " happened so that there was  score that needed to be bored or lapped out so increasing the bore size .It is not uncommon to find guns with differently marked proof sizes because of this .

You have to bare in mind the gun trade was basically a cottage industry  so scrapping something was the last resort  and in those time no one really cared about such mundane things as bore sizes and chokes as long as the gun shot  ,you learned to and how to use it . 

Provisional proof was at the time compulsory  as well as sensible baring in mind that all the barrels were made of "damascus " at the time   .When the barrel tube was made and whilst in its rough state it was submitted to proof and was fired with a suitable charge . If the barrel stood this then it was marked up and was than made up into pairs and finished , as no body wanted to build barrels with tubes were likely to fail .

Yes I have thought of writing a book and several attempts have been made but when it comes down to it I'm just to lazy .

 

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1 hour ago, Welshmon said:

Just bought this AYA No4 non ejector, plan to remove the varnish and oil the stock. 

20190805_112107.jpg

No 4’s have ejectors. Are you sure it’s not a no. 3? Nice gun all the same.

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Posted (edited)

This was my last purchase from Holt,s ,a C. Boswell from1896? sold as " The major parts of a Boswell ,some in a bag" now ready for birds, had the lockwork rebuilt locally, barrels re/blued same & did stock myself, it was a bit of a tip but Trade secrets stock kit did the jpb, re/barreled by Gallyons, it came for the price of a decent catapult. Ejector by the way. I meant to put this in IMG_4227.JPG.8e634e35347bad33b13cea963167f114.JPGSBS club, could it be moved ?

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IMG_4227.JPG

Edited by guzzicat

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1 hour ago, MrPhantom said:

No 4’s have ejectors. Are you sure it’s not a no. 3? Nice gun all the same.

I thought it was a No3 but I was told it was a No4 non ejector, didn't pay much for it , is there a way to tell the difference?

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Needed to stand on patio steps for height to take pics, put down with care!

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Very nice! I will be keeping an eye on the Holts catalogue in future. 

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Yes very nice job. There are bargains to be had at holts sealed bid sale. I purchased a Charles Smith for BLE for £130 it had sleeved barrels the engraving and wood were superb I only sold it as the stock would not bend enough as I’m a left hooker ,  my local gun shop sold for me for  £700 

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Anyone know of a source for hammer gun firing pins? Mine are getting a bit 'nail like' ie with the top flattened a bit. Still striking well but I could use some spares without spending ££££... I could duplicate them using a nail of the proper diameter and so on, but surely midland gun company hammers were pretty 'standard' even back then?

I'm also looking for a vintage box for Whammy, 32" barrels (with 3rd bite) -- I've been looking for about 2 years and can't find one!

acDkm86.jpg

 

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The chances of finding readymade pins are slim to non .Even if you can source some they may need adjusting . Best to bite the bullet and get them made by some one who knows what they are doing .

I take it you mean a 32" boxlock gun .Very  few and far between , most will be 3" fowling guns so will be heavy , most I have seen were not the best quality and  not in the best condition .

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1 hour ago, Gunman said:

The chances of finding readymade pins are slim to non .Even if you can source some they may need adjusting . Best to bite the bullet and get them made by some one who knows what they are doing .

I take it you mean a 32" boxlock gun .Very  few and far between , most will be 3" fowling guns so will be heavy , most I have seen were not the best quality and  not in the best condition .

I think he was after a vintage box for a 32" Boxlock Gunman, not the gun?

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