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Side by Side Club

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27 minutes ago, Dibble said:

It's funny that with the raised rib on the XXV he wanted a sight picture like an O/U but didn't like O/Us.

Have Churchill ever actually "made" much, mine and the others I've looked at have Birmingham proof marks and the new ones are Spanish.

Whether he made his own guns or not I don`t know, but he was a damn good salesman !

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5 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

Not an expert but I can confirm that for balance and handling the R/A is superb.  Local gunshop Castle Gunmakers  have 3 on their racks

Blackpowder

Thanks Blackpowder, I noticed that and I emailed them this morning for some photos and details, their website is shocking on my phone and does not allow me to zoom in, so hoping they can email me images directly. Cheers.

4 hours ago, DUNKS said:

There is a beaut at Hadfield guns. Looks to have had very little use . Best tightest Damascus I have ever seen.

I will go and have a look online at this one as well, thanks DUNKS :-)

3 hours ago, GBS said:

 

By no means an expert either but be aware that many started life with quite thin barrels and they will not have got any thicker. Also, I was advised by a well regarded stocker that altering cast can be quite difficult due to the amount of metal the trigger plate locks are mounted on. GBS

Good points thanks, I am only looking at sleeved barrels as I want to use the gun and not worry about replacing barrels any time soon.

3 hours ago, Gunman said:

 Not an " expert" but have some knowledge  .Tread very carefully . There some very good examples but there are a lot of "done up" worn out old ones as well . Thing to remember is that the Dickson is a vastly different gun to most others so any future repair will be a matter of hand made parts and some one who has had some experience with them . These can few and far between. 

As well as all the normal things , proof , bore size , wall thickness overall condition , amount of original finish etc . check screw heads for signs that the gun has been taken apart  many times , the stock is sound and tight on the action , That it is well on the face and that the lever locks down well as rejoints on them is not as straight forward as other guns . That the ejectors work well with cases not snap caps .

Noted thanks. I have visited Dickson's recently as I am fairly local to them, I am hoping that as a fallback anything needing done to the gun can be sorted by them in the future. I was actually going to PM you if that's ok as I would value your opinion on something ;-)

 

Appreciate all the great feedback folks thanks very much and hopefully I will be joining the club very soon.

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4 hours ago, Gunman said:

Could be that Churchill could never make an O/U worth a light ,or even one that worked .

There not very good at selling them either 

went to there shop/ showroom to attend a charity event with the intention of buying one of there ou 20 bores on the day 

they wouldn’t let me into the gun room on the day despite repeated requests apparently I was too scruffy And they didn’t think I could afford it 

wouldn’t buy one now on principle 

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2 hours ago, m3vert said:

Thanks Blackpowder, I noticed that and I emailed them this morning for some photos and details, their website is shocking on my phone and does not allow me to zoom in, so hoping they can email me images directly. Cheers.

I will go and have a look online at this one as well, thanks DUNKS 🙂

Good points thanks, I am only looking at sleeved barrels as I want to use the gun and not worry about replacing barrels any time soon.

Noted thanks. I have visited Dickson's recently as I am fairly local to them, I am hoping that as a fallback anything needing done to the gun can be sorted by them in the future. I was actually going to PM you if that's ok as I would value your opinion on something 😉

 

Appreciate all the great feedback folks thanks very much and hopefully I will be joining the club very soon.

Outside of Dickson my go to is Graeme Mackinlay for knowledge of these.

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2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

There not very good at selling them either 

went to there shop/ showroom to attend a charity event with the intention of buying one of there ou 20 bores on the day 

they wouldn’t let me into the gun room on the day despite repeated requests apparently I was too scruffy And they didn’t think I could afford it 

wouldn’t buy one now on principle 

Ha brilliant, first rule of sales never assume! I went with a mate to look at guns and when he asked to look at a EELL, the guy looked him up and down and walked off, clown, my mate had just sold his business for a good few million and has cash to burn!

Which o/u you were looking at, the One made by Perazzi?

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2 minutes ago, button said:

Ha brilliant, first rule of sales never assume! I went with a mate to look at guns and when he asked to look at a EELL, the guy looked him up and down and walked off, clown, my mate had just sold his business for a good few million and has cash to burn!

Which o/u you were looking at, the One made by Perazzi?

That was the one they looked a pretty little gun 

absolute ****** in some of the retailer’s 

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1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

Outside of Dickson my go to is Graeme Mackinlay for knowledge of these.

Proprietor of Castle Gunrooms once part owned Dicksons.

Blackpowder

 

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For work I wear a hi-viz jacket and steel toe caps but can sound slightly posh with a bit of Yorkshire abruptness when irritated. This has caused a rollercoaster of responses in 3 southern gunrooms so far, particually one that was selling a below average AyA no.3 for 3 times it's market value.

I must drop into Churchills when next in High Wycombe.

 

Is Dicksons now owned by J-P Daschler?

Edited by Dibble

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Churchill had guns made in the Birmingham trade .Wrights made many and were eventually taken over by a holding company that owned several gunmakers through acquisition of the likes of Webley and Scott, Atkin,Grant,Lang , Watson, Hellis, Beesley ,Hussey,and Lancaster . Churchill  was split into two companies one in Birmingham  who made the box locks and a London shop . There was much trouble and both companies folded . The name was then questionably re activated and is now operated selling continental guns under the Churchill name .

I have seen a couple of original Churchill O/U's but was not over impressed .

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On 13/01/2020 at 20:25, Gunman said:

Churchill had guns made in the Birmingham trade .Wrights made many and were eventually taken over by a holding company that owned several gunmakers through acquisition of the likes of Webley and Scott, Atkin,Grant,Lang , Watson, Hellis, Beesley ,Hussey,and Lancaster . Churchill  was split into two companies one in Birmingham  who made the box locks and a London shop . There was much trouble and both companies folded . The name was then questionably re activated and is now operated selling continental guns under the Churchill name .

I have seen a couple of original Churchill O/U's but was not over impressed .

Were they the `Zenith` o/u Gunman ?

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Honestly can't remember , then again I was never that bothered with model names they were just guns and frequently pains in the xxxx to me .

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14 hours ago, matone said:

Were they the `Zenith` o/u Gunman ?

Yes. Fair to say that these had problems with ejection and they followed on some 25 years after the first ones. Prince Abbas Bey bought one of the originals - 4130 -  in 1929 and they couldn't have been too bad as he was still buying them in 1946 - 6370 - although the ejection remained problematic.

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On 13/01/2020 at 09:07, DUNKS said:

There is a beaut at Hadfield guns. Looks to have had very little use . Best tightest Damascus I have ever seen.

I think the semi-pistol grip spoils the lines on that gun, otherwise it's beautiful.

I'm not against SP or pistol grips, have a SP on my Midland boxlock magnum and a full pistol on my AYA 10 bore, but they suit those guns.

On 13/01/2020 at 14:51, Old farrier said:

There not very good at selling them either 

went to there shop/ showroom to attend a charity event with the intention of buying one of there ou 20 bores on the day 

they wouldn’t let me into the gun room on the day despite repeated requests apparently I was too scruffy And they didn’t think I could afford it 

wouldn’t buy one now on principle 

I can understand where they were coming from 😁

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On 16/01/2020 at 09:04, Penelope said:

I think the semi-pistol grip spoils the lines on that gun, otherwise it's beautiful.

I'm not against SP or pistol grips, have a SP on my Midland boxlock magnum and a full pistol on my AYA 10 bore, but they suit those guns.

I can understand where they were coming from 😁

Back in the 80's a very Scruffy woman came into our shop looking for Xmas present for her husband , she looked around and asked about a cartridge bag . This one was priced at around £15 .00 . Do yo have any others she asked ,? yes but they £75.00 each  .Oh she said I'll take two one for my son as well . You just can not always tell .

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On 13/01/2020 at 14:51, Old farrier said:

There not very good at selling them either 

went to there shop/ showroom to attend a charity event with the intention of buying one of there ou 20 bores on the day 

they wouldn’t let me into the gun room on the day despite repeated requests apparently I was too scruffy And they didn’t think I could afford it 

wouldn’t buy one now on principle 

I will be the first to admit that generally I am not the smartest bloke you will meet. Well, to be honest, I mostly dress in rags!  Trust me when I say I am a day to day scruff.
But I would not dream of attending a charity event in an upmarket gunroom dressed like that.

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1 hour ago, London Best said:

I will be the first to admit that generally I am not the smartest bloke you will meet. Well, to be honest, I mostly dress in rags!  Trust me when I say I am a day to day scruff.
But I would not dream of attending a charity event in an upmarket gunroom dressed like that.

I was dressed in my shooting suit and polished shoes 

however I still look like Bob geldorph and compared to the other 3 team members still look scruffy 

they didn’t stipulate a dress code and were quite happy taking the money As I recall 

a tea two coffee a can of drink and 1 slice of cake came to more than £25 

The same as i wore to the PW charity shoot there’s a picture on here somewhere feel free to find it and you can make a better judgment on my dress standards for the day!!!

 

Edited by Old farrier

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hello, not sure when Churchill started making side by side short barrel high raised rib shotguns but i know in the 1960s AYA made their sidelock and boxlock on the same lines, both calling these XXVs i had a book by a Major Ruffer The Art Of Good Shooting and he praised short  barrel shotguns with high ribs, you could find other gun makers English and Spanish with these type ribs, Eley Impax was the cartridge most preferred. never knew why this XXV came about.

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The fad for short guns came about because of a clever marketing ploy by Mr. Churchill, in an attempt to boost sales. And it worked. Much the same as the current fad started by the gun manufacturers pushing long barrelled guns, to boost sales. And it’s worked again.

Personally, I’m very grateful to Churchill as I much prefer the weight and handling of shorter guns.

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1 hour ago, London Best said:

The fad for short guns came about because of a clever marketing ploy by Mr. Churchill, in an attempt to boost sales. And it worked. Much the same as the current fad started by the gun manufacturers pushing long barrelled guns, to boost sales. And it’s worked again.

Personally, I’m very grateful to Churchill as I much prefer the weight and handling of shorter guns.

 

Best just sticking to a 28" all rounder then :) 

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2 hours ago, London Best said:

You sound quite smart by that description!

I bet you were mad, eh?

Not at all it’s there loss I just spent the money at a different retailers 

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