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2 hours ago, London Best said:

The fad for short guns came about because of a clever marketing ploy by Mr. Churchill, in an attempt to boost sales. And it worked. Much the same as the current fad started by the gun manufacturers pushing long barrelled guns, to boost sales. And it’s worked again.

Personally, I’m very grateful to Churchill as I much prefer the weight and handling of shorter guns.

Actually, no. A  26&1/16" (don't shoot the messenger) was ordered by a Mr Gould Brokaw of North Carolina for quail shooting in 1897 and his neighbour, Clarence H Mackay, followed suit in 1906 with a 26" barreled version. The 25" came into being in 1920 as a result of the introduction of the new fangled powders and the introduction of the SMLE Mk 111. They were selling before the advertisers got into gear. And then, of course, it all hit the fan with The Field and Major Burrard

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Yeah, I know there were ‘shorty’ guns around in the 19C, but it was definitely Churchill who, shall we say, accelerated sales. I’ve never owned a 25 inch but I’ve used either 26 inch or 27 inch as my main gun since about 1966. My present driven game gun is a 26 1/2 inch Royal Brevis, used for eight seasons now. Before that I was using a 26 inch Wiseman best box lock for 23 seasons and prior to that a 27 inch Derby Charles Rosson for 19 seasons. My rough/pigeon/ducking gun since 1975 is a 26 inch Spanish box lock ejector.

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6 hours ago, Gunman said:

Back in the 80's a very Scruffy woman came into our shop looking for Xmas present for her husband , she looked around and asked about a cartridge bag . This one was priced at around £15 .00 . Do yo have any others she asked ,? yes but they £75.00 each  .Oh she said I'll take two one for my son as well . You just can not always tell .

I was just joshing.

I've had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with Of on a fowling trip to the Wash, where he did indeed look like a scarecrow that had been dragged through a hedge backwards :oops:

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1 minute ago, Penelope said:

I was just joshing.

I've had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with Of on a fowling trip to the Wash, where he did indeed look like a scarecrow that had been dragged through a hedge backwards 

It was a very memorable day 😊👍

all the effort of smartening myself up was wasted on that day 😢

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Do you think the Churchill XXVs appealed to the shorter gentleman? I know most older SxSs are short stocked but I'm vaguely in the market for one and see some very (~13 1/2 ") LOPs.

I work with a lot of short men most of whom are in denial and can imagine a few thinking "I'm not short I just prefer 25" barrels" .

Two years ago a photographer tried to get our 85 Reps to line up in height order, I'm just 6 foot and had men who scrape 5'4" look at me to see who was taller.

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I was six feet tall from the age of fourteen and always preferred shorter barrels. Now I’ve shrunk to barely five feet ten. Author and broadcaster Macdonald Hastings was very tall but was a devotee of Churchill 25’s.

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8 minutes ago, Dibble said:

Do you think the Churchill XXVs appealed to the shorter gentleman? I know most older SxSs are short stocked but I'm vaguely in the market for one and see some very (~13 1/2 ") LOPs.

I work with a lot of short men most of whom are in denial and can imagine a few thinking "I'm not short I just prefer 25" barrels" .

Two years ago a photographer tried to get our 85 Reps to line up in height order, I'm just 6 foot and had men who scrape 5'4" look at me to see who was taller.

There faster handling guns lots of them had the stock cut down for children as being shorter barrels they were a easier job alround 

no one seems to mention the muzzle blast and the extra perceived noise that comes with the shorter barrels 

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A friend shoots clays with a Beneli Semi-Auto (should one admit this on the Side-by-Side forum) with a short ported barrel and you  often feel the blast from quite a distance.

Edited by Dibble

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Much depends on the style you have 'adopted' for shooting.  My (sadly late) godfather was a fairly tall lean 'stringy' man, about 6'2 or 3".  He shot 28" barrels with quite short (for his height) stocks of 14 3/4" with a lot of cast.  He had been trained by the famous Percy Stanbury and was an exceptional shot.  However, his 'style' was quite unusual;  he followed the target with his barrels before and as he mounted the gun, firing the instant the butt came into his shoulder.  It was impressive to watch and all done so quickly.  He kept the left arm near straight and tended to shoot well 'out in front' of the line when shooting driven game.

His style depended on a very closely fitted and very light gun.  His guns (there was a set if 3 matched and numbered 1,2,3) were 12 bore 28"straight hand  - and weighed just 6lbs.

In his day one of the major sporting agents of the time described him as "the best game shot I have ever watched" in an article on all time shots.

If he handled a non fittied heavy gun (he tried my Beretta SO6 once) he did not get on at all with it, since his whole style depended on the light and very fast handling of his guns.

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1 hour ago, Dibble said:

Do you think the Churchill XXVs appealed to the shorter gentleman? I know most older SxSs are short stocked but I'm vaguely in the market for one and see some very (~13 1/2 ") LOPs.

I work with a lot of short men most of whom are in denial and can imagine a few thinking "I'm not short I just prefer 25" barrels" .

Two years ago a photographer tried to get our 85 Reps to line up in height order, I'm just 6 foot and had men who scrape 5'4" look at me to see who was taller.

You don't define "for one" as to whether this is specifically a XXV or a 25" SbS. Should it be the Churchill, I've had two, same model but thanks to the Yanks and not to mention Shakespeare, two different names. I've always preferred the 25" and had the AyA version until I was able to afford the original. I didn't quite make the 6 ft and like LB I've now shrunk to 5 ft 9!/2 ins according to the local hospital and am somewhat gangly. Both stocks were 15" give or take and were fine but I couldn't really get on with either and the reason was that they were very small in the hand - too small so I reverted back to the AyA which I've just sold and replaced with a 700. Although this is 26" I don't really notice any difference. I started using 28g loads in 7s a while back and the 2&3/4 chambers on the 700 give a better selection than the 2&1/2 on the AyA. (OK, I didn't know then about the SuperGame.) The 700 suits me fine and am well pleased to have a home grown gun again which I can actually get a grip of as it were - literally.

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Similar in many ways but so different. 
I much prefer a really slim, diamond shaped hand on my guns. But I do have short, stubby fingers.  I also have short arms and legs but a long body. No, I don’t waddle like a duck!

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To answer Wymberley.

I came back to shooting a year ago after 30 years away and bought a 30" barrel Multichoke O/U as I was supposed to, I mainly shoot English Sporting Clays, however I just didn't like it so I bought an AyA no3 which I love.

I enjoy close fast moving clays preferably random trajectories, I dislike long distance loopers and crossers and score accordingly.

The logical gun for me seems to be a "25" of some description but thats where I run out of experience, I've never shot one.

I have just bought a rough basic Churchill 28" from Holts, had the rib relaid, made a new toplever spring, sorted out a firing pin etc. I've extended the stock to 15" which feels right

My Ideas at the moment, which I would appreciate your views on are: (no pound sign on my computor)

An AyA  No2, 26" barrels normal rib- cost about 800, probably have to extend the stock, disc set strikers,  parts easily available, lots to choose from

Saresquetta etc 25" -I see some cheap spanish some not so cheap and can't work out what should cost what.

AyA XXV boxlock lots of rough ones with badly extended stocks for 500, I'm not keen on the engraving, usually plain wood.

AyA XXV sidelock 1500 pounds pretty gun, engraving a bit flashy.

Quality Birmingham boxlock 25" idealy scroll back Boxlock, idealy case hardened, 2000 pounds.

Churchill XXV- I really can't justify the cost, young family etc.

 

Have I missed anything fast and light?

 

 

Edited by Dibble

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You can hardly go wrong with an AyA if you don’t pay over the odds for it. Victor Sarasqueta guns are often of comparable quality to AyA. This is not the case with Felix Sarasqueta guns. V. Sarasqueta have ceased trading nearly forty years ago.

Obviously, fit and suitability are everything. Try different guns and see which suits you best.

My choice would be a Brummy boxlock ejector if you can find one you like.

Edited by London Best

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There are a couple of English (probably Birmingham) 25 inch BLEs on Guntrader, both with Churchill ribs -:

12g Playfair 25 inch with 15 inch stock £550

12g T.Adsett 25 inch with 14 5/8 inch stock in original case £850

Might be worth a look.

OB

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Yep, I'd go with LB - almost. Shooting clays you have control of the targets' arrival so do you really need ejectors? Gun Trader will give an idea of what's about, but I would keep also an eye on Greenfields of Salisbury who have a dedicated English used section which is a fair indication of what something decent is fetching. (If I wasn't sorted and not too far off from packing it all in, I know what I'd do with the Monk there at present. Mind you, I suppose I.............)

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If the man is only shooting clays there are bargains galore at present in old English box lock non ejectors.

I can’t understand why clay guns invariably have totally unnecessary ejectors.

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9 minutes ago, London Best said:

If the man is only shooting clays there are bargains galore at present in old English box lock non ejectors.

I can’t understand why clay guns invariably have totally unnecessary ejectors.

But you still think the earth is flat!:rolleyes:

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In this instance and just for that Henry Monk I'd accept ejectors though. Dibble said 'fast, 25", light, 6 lb and it looks like a Churchill rib and not to mention - to me - it looks gorgeous. If all was well, I'd have Dennis and Co stick a London Orange on one end and have Teague put a fixed 1/4 on the bottom of the other - to shoot Imp Cyl - and open up the top a tad to be decided.

 

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1 minute ago, wymberley said:

In this instance and just for that Henry Monk I'd accept ejectors though. Dibble said 'fast, 25", light, 6 lb and it looks like a Churchill rib and not to mention - to me - it looks gorgeous. If all was well, I'd have Dennis and Co stick a London Orange on one end and have Teague put a fixed 1/4 on the bottom of the other - to shoot Imp Cyl - and open up the top a tad to be decided.

In this instance and just for that Henry Monk I'd accept ejectors though. Dibble said 'fast, 25", light, 6 lb and it looks like a Churchill rib and not to mention - to me - it looks gorgeous. If all was well, I'd have Dennis and Co stick a London Orange on one end and have Teague put a fixed 1/4 on the bottom of the other - to shoot Imp Cyl - and open up the top a tad to be decided.

A reamarkably sensible suggestion, worthy of repeating, oh you already did!:lol:

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3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

A reamarkably sensible suggestion, worthy of repeating, oh you already did!:lol:

Damn! I thought I'd deleted that once!

I thought l had. You're to quick, get out into the fields!

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181124145927002-2.jpg

 

This is on Guntrader, Roland Watson, 2 sets of barrels 2250 pounds. maybe a little Feminine? but I'm going to find out more

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1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Damn! I thought I'd deleted that once!

I thought l had. You're to quick, get out into the fields!

Currently bored at work, have checked the vehicles and topped up the washer bottles.

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58 minutes ago, Dibble said:

181124145927002-2.jpg

 

This is on Guntrader, Roland Watson, 2 sets of barrels 2250 pounds. maybe a little Feminine? but I'm going to find out more

hello, nothing Feminine about that classic beautiful English shotgun, worthy on any game shooting day, let us know how you get on ?

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