So - seems the gas was oxygen starvation

[Dave-G]

All those videos of kids being hosed down and breathing through masks... oxygen masks: 

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-gas-douma-robert-fisk-ghouta-damascus-a8307726.html

[grrclark]

You should perhaps look at the very questionable history of Robert Fisk "exclusives" before taking that article as any semblance of the truth.

[Dave-G]

That's going to be worth a look thanks.

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

You should perhaps look at the very questionable history of Robert Fisk "exclusives" before taking that article as any semblance of the truth.

Could you elaborate on that please Grr, or provide a link. 

I'm not really finding anything bad about him, apart from him working for the indy! 

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Could you elaborate on that please Grr, or provide a link. 

I'm not really finding anything bad about him, apart from him working for the indy! 

Me too - my current feeling after a bit of Googling is he just seems to stick his neck out and actually get on the ground in the middle east rather than buy into the sources where mainstream media get their chosen agenda stories from.

I've no idea if he's right or wrong and have no personal agenda to support either way but I'm coming round to the idea that UK 'security' maybe really runs the country and manipulates our various trusting PM's into all sorts of shifty actions.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Dave-G

[Hamster]

https://www.mintpressnews.com/john-pilger-the-white-helmets-are-a-complete-propaganda-construct/228238/

[Jaymo]

Hypoxia? Ha, ask any Pilot who has had hyperbaric chamber ‘decompression’ training and the terrified look on the faces of those affected sure isn’t Hypoxia!

Flew with a guy who’s mask became detached and he was the most euphoric and confident person in the world at that time, but boy his lips were cyanised 

[grrclark]

II shall post up some references a bit later on, working from a mobile is a pain.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, grrclark said:

II shall post up some references a bit later on, working from a mobile is a pain.

I shall look forward to that.

In the meantime I had a bit of a dig about Mr Fisk..

Robert Fisk
Fisk in 2008
Born	12 July 1946 (age 71) Maidstone, Kent, England
Education	Lancaster University (B.A., 1968) Trinity College, Dublin (PhD, 1985)
Occupation	Middle East correspondent for The Independent
Notable credit(s)	Jacob's Award, Amnesty International UK Press Awards, British Press Awards, International Journalist of the Year, Reporter of the Year, David Watt Prize, Lannan Cultural Freedom Prize
Spouse(s)	Lara Marlowe (1994–2006)
Website	https://www.independent.co.uk/biography/robert-fisk

Robert Fisk (born 12 July 1946) is an English writer and journalist. He has been Middle East correspondent intermittently since 1976 for various media; since 1989 he has been correspondent for The Independent, primarily based in Beirut.^[1] Fisk holds numerous British and international journalism awards, including the Press Awards Foreign Reporter of the Year seven times. He has published a number of books and reported on several wars and armed conflicts.

An Arabic speaker,^[2] he was among the few Western journalists to interview Osama bin Laden, which he did on three occasions between 1993 and 1997.^[3][4

And fisking.

 [blogosphere; very common] A point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or (especially) news story. A really stylish fisking is witty, logical, sarcastic and ruthlessly factual; flaming or handwaving is considered poor form.5 May 2004

Basically a derogatory term first penned to debunk and deride Mr Fisks reporting and opinions about the Middle east, usually by people who have never been, and do their research from behind a keyboard and desk in an office several thousand miles away.
You see Mr Fisks opinion is not popular, pro Arab, and anti American involvement in ME affairs, but what he does do is go there ,and talk to people 'on the ground' and try to get the real story, Im quite surprised hes still alive to be honest.

This is a story (character assassination really) from 2003

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2003/11/the-dangers-of-fisking/

The title 'The dangers of fisking' probably haunt the author to this day, as his ridicule of Fisk in the article, on what Fisk thought was going to happen in Iraq, pretty much all came true.
Also this from wiki makes interesting reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AFisking

[grrclark]

To expand on Robert Fisk a little, without doubt he is an accomplished journalist and author, however he is very much self proclaimed in pursuing a controversial agenda.

Controversial in not being afraid to challenge authority in pursuit of the truth or justice is great, however being provocatively controversial in an attempt to gain readers or foment a reputation not so much.  With RF he used to be very much in the former camp and now strikes me as being in the latter.

He is widely regarded as being anti western and is absolutely anti Isreali.

Some of his controversial contributions in the past have been claiming to have found fragments from an American missile amongst the body parts of a Kosovan refugee convoy.  Nato denied any activity at the time the convoy was bombed and non of the other journalists present witnessed those fragments being found and found no evidence of missile fragments themselves.

In 2006 he wrote a front page story claiming Isreal used depleted uranium shells in Lebanon, despite no evidence being found by Lebanese and UN scienists.

in 2011 the Independent were forced to issue a correction on a Fisk story saying a Saudi minister had signed an order instructing security forces to show no mercy and yse live rounds on demonstrators.  The “signed order” was a forged document and admitted as such by the Independent.

In the story referenced by the OP Fisk interviewed a doctor who admits he was not present at the hospital where the victims of the gas attack were treated, but he uses that doctors testimony to state that the problem was hypoxia caused by a dust cloud in the tunnels and basements of the city.

It is interesting that in the same article that he does reference that WHO doctors did treat 500 civilians in Douma who were demonstrating symptoms of chemical weapon attack, but the focus is on the testimony of the doctor who was not at the hospital saying it was hypoxia.

Controversy for controversy sake.

I am not suggesting that any ouput from Fink should be dismissed, that would be wrong, but his articles, along with those of any other journalist must be subject to a level of scruitny and not just taken at face value.

[grrclark]

Rewulf, undoubtably RF is a polarising figure, there is a load of stuff that seeks to discredit him, principally by Isreali based media and there is a lot who regard him as a fearless seeker of the truth, there is a really good article as such in one of the Jordanian press outlets.

The truth as ever will sit somewhere in the middle.

Without question he is a highly talented journalist and treads that fine line of controversy very well, but his ego is the size of a house end and he relishes in his status.

Also interesting that he eschews the internet as a source of objective news as he believes there is no journalistic integrity, people are not held to account in the same way as established printed media.  Or perhaps a different take is that by carrying the weight of the publication behind his name he can assume a much more authoritative presence and feed his ego a little bit more and allow him to take a cleverly calculated and controversial stance that is legitimised by association.

 

If there any obvious typos in the last 2 posts I apologise, still working off the mobile.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Rewulf, undoubtably RF is a polarising figure, there is a load of stuff that seeks to discredit him, principally by Isreali based media and there is a lot who regard him as a fearless seeker of the truth, there is a really good article as such in one of the Jordanian press outlets.

The truth as ever will sit somewhere in the middle.

Without question he is a highly talented journalist and treads that fine line of controversy very well, but his ego is the size of a house end and he relishes in his status.

Also interesting that he eschews the internet as a source of objective news as he believes there is no journalistic integrity, people are not held to account in the same way as established printed media.  Or perhaps a different take is that by carrying the weight of the publication behind his name he can assume a much more authoritative presence and feed his ego a little bit more and allow him to take a cleverly calculated and controversial stance that is legitimised by association.

 

If there any obvious typos in the last 2 posts I apologise, still working off the mobile.

Dont doubt any of that for a moment.
But when you get someone who is willing ,at 71 years of age, to go into harms way, to 'physically report' on an incident, rather than listen to someone elses report from the comfort of your office, before compiling your 'take ' on it.
I would say one of them has far more integrity than the other, egos aside.
Of course Fisk has an agenda, it appears he would like to see an end to ME conflicts, if he tells a few lies to achieve that end, I dont actually have a problem with that.
Its better than telling a few lies to perpetuate it.

This is an older video with a Canadian called Eva Bartlett, Im sure she has an agenda too.
Sorry for the annoying presenter, there is an original somewhere, but I need to get back to work !

 

[Gordon R]

Whilst I do not know whether Fisk is genuine, telling porkies or whatever, is there anyone who can emulate his style and ruthlessly destroy what he is saying - fact by fact?

All to easy to dismiss what he says - he is in Syria - we are not.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Whilst I do not know whether Fisk is genuine, telling porkies or whatever, is there anyone who can emulate his style and ruthlessly destroy what he is saying - fact by fact?

All to easy to dismiss what he says - he is in Syria - we are not.

Exactly.

[grrclark]

That’s a fair point Gordon, but he was specifically invited by the regime to walk around in that part of Douma so no particlar risk to him as an individual.

I daresay if they asked the ME correspondants of all press outlets they would all be there too.  It’s not like he has sneaked in under fire to report.

Not withstanding the man is there and I also give credit for that.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, grrclark said:

That’s a fair point Gordon, but he was specifically invited by the regime to walk around in that part of Douma so no particlar risk to him as an individual.

I daresay if they asked the ME correspondants of all press outlets they would all be there too.  It’s not like he has sneaked in under fire to report.

Not withstanding the man is there and I also give credit for that.

No disrespect Grr ,but has not that area just been attacked with chemical and 'possibly' nerve agents ? Booby traps, the odd cruise missile ?
Also, do you have to be cleared to visit conflict areas in Syria ?
There appears to be a dearth of on the ground reporting there, and I could understand if the Syrian government barred entry, but the rebel controlled areas seem able to do as they please.
At his age, I can think of far better things to spend my time on , than scrabbling about in rubble and looking at broken bodies.

[Gordon R]

With all the claims and counter claims, I honestly have no genuine idea of what has happened. I trust the Government more than the Syrians or Russians, but does the Government have the full script?

[Rewulf]

I hear what youre saying Gordon, but then you see stuff like this.

https://www.rt.com/news/424581-chlorine-germany-bombs-uk-syria/

But we have to ignore it because its RT ?

[Flyboy1950]

8 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Hypoxia? Ha, ask any Pilot who has had hyperbaric chamber ‘decompression’ training and the terrified look on the faces of those affected sure isn’t Hypoxia!

Flew with a guy who’s mask became detached and he was the most euphoric and confident person in the world at that time, but boy his lips were cyanised 

I remember Michael Portillo did a programme on Capital punishment a few years back and he came to the conclusion that Hypoxia was the most humane method of execution. To demonstrate, he entered a chamber with another "control doctor" who had oxygen and they reduced the oxygen level in the chamber. Portillo became incredibly euphoric even though he knew he was dying, and was able to talk about it and how he felt. Monitors showed his body shutting down. The Dr finally gave him an oxygen mask, as in his estimation  Portillo only had 2 seconds left before dying, very very  happy.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Flyboy1950

[mickyh]

15 hours ago, Flyboy1950 said:

I remember Michael Portillo did a programme on Capital punishment a few years back and he came to the conclusion that Hypoxia was the most humane method of execution. To demonstrate, he entered a chamber with another "control doctor" who had oxygen and they reduced the oxygen level in the chamber. Portillo became incredibly euphoric even though he knew he was dying, and was able to talk about it and how he felt. Monitors showed his body shutting down. The Dr finally gave him an oxygen mask, as in his estimation  Portillo only had 2 seconds left before dying, very very  happy.

 

Really Interesting, but not 2 seconds, 20 to 30 seconds. 2 would be to close! Even for Michael Portillo.

Edited April 20, 2018 by mickyh

[Seadog1408]

Hypoxia is reduced supply of O2.

Anoxia is the complete lack of O2.

only one will kill you.