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India got it right


figgy
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1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Your definition of 'emotionally driven opinion' is most definitely not the same as mine.
And even if there was emotion involved, so ?

 

You compared American execution costs, with British prison costs !

 

I would if I was you, youre not making a lot of sense.

I think you've missed the point of nearly everything I've said.

EDIT: I'll go over it, again!

"Your definition of 'emotionally driven opinion' is most definitely not the same as mine.
And even if there was emotion involved, so ?"

I did say, I totally understand emotion coming into play, the answer to 'so' is that it can't determine whether a law is right or not. It's far too subjective.

You compared American execution costs, with British prison costs !

People in this thread would like to bring a component of American law over to Britain, I'm doing what most would deem common sense.

I would if I was you, youre not making a lot of sense.

I haven't been inconsistent whatsoever, and very little of what I've said is opinion.

Edited by DanBettin
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I don’t care about the cost of keeping them in prison nor the deterrent factor. As a deterrent it was never very effective anyhow, as people were still murdered.

As far as I’m aware the rozzers aren’t looking for anyone else regarding the Soham murders nor the Yorkshire rippers victims and countless other such crimes. Admittedly there is little chance of those people being released, but I’m offended by the fact that such types are still breathing. 

But the biggest outrage to me are those who are released to offend again. Capital punishment is a 100% guarantee that that person will not reoffend. 

Can you imagine what it must be like for families of victims to discover that the murderer was released after serving a sentence for a previous murder? It doesn’t bear thinking about.

One day the murderers of Stephen Lawrence will be released to go to the pub; have a day out somewhere, and generally get on with their lives, unlike Stephen Lawrence. 

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Don't understand the logic in saying that the death penalty doesn't save money.  

What's the cost ? 

Against feeding and sheltering a person that's raped a child that is as innocent as they can be, to then just toss them aside like a piece of rubbish.. 

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Just now, Dougy said:

Don't understand the logic in saying that the death penalty doesn't save money.  

What's the cost ? 

Against feeding and sheltering a person that's raped a child that is as innocent as they can be, to then just toss them aside like a piece of rubbish.. 

Did you read the studies I posted? Or even google it? Or are you asking rhetorically?

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1 hour ago, DanBettin said:

I feel like this is one of those threads that could develop into a full-blown debate. I'll leave my 2 cents here.

I'm not for the death penalty, at all. First and foremost, people have been wrongly convicted and put to death because of it. That's a fact.

One of the most common arguments is the notion that it saves money, and people are VERY quick to jump to this conclusion without knowing the facts.

Studies that effortlessly debunk the idea that the death penalty is a money-saver: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

The UK government also release stats regularly on costs per prisoner per year: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/prison-performance-statistics-2016-to-2017 so you can do the math and see it's not effective to simply kill off pedos and save money. That's not how it works at all.

These people charged with these offences are simply scumbags, I couldn't care about them whatsoever, but if you want to talk hard facts with regard to financials, they shouldn't be put to death. If it's more an emotional thing, which is understandable, I'd argue it's not sound basis for legislation.

So I massively disagree, India didn't get it right.

Is that having an emotional opinion ?

55 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

 

---------

Let me just reiterate this, because I think it's important:

 Assuming we had 100% certainty the accused were guilty, and we had evidence that the death penalty was cheaper, I would 100% back the death penalty.

 

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25 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

People in this thread would like to bring a component of American law over to Britain, I'm doing what most would deem common sense.

Who? You're the only person that has mentioned the USA Law.

People are saying that Britain should bring back the death penalty for certain crimes when proof is 100%. Britain had the death penalty way before Europeans stepped foot in the Americas.

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6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Who? You're the only person that has mentioned the USA Law.

People are saying that Britain should bring back the death penalty for certain crimes when proof is 100%. Britain had the death penalty way before Europeans stepped foot in the Americas.

Supposing you don't want to mimic the death penalty that the USA have, what do you propose?

Edited by DanBettin
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42 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

Did you read the studies I posted? Or even google it? Or are you asking rhetorically?

Yes but it can be done with a total cost of i'd say 100rupees, thats about £1. 

 

So no real need to read the break down of managerial costs and admin fees. 

Or would you rather just put them in a corner and tell them off. 
Sorry but thats the very reason that the worlds in the state that its in now, so many doo gooders that say that punishment is too harsh. 

 

Im sorry but i dont wear rose tinted glasses. 

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1 minute ago, Dougy said:

Yes but it can be done with a total cost of i'd say 100rupees, thats about £1. 

 

So no real need to read the break down of managerial costs and admin fees. 

Or would you rather just put them in a corner and tell them off. 
Sorry but thats the very reason that the worlds in the state that its in now, so many doo gooders that say that punishment is too harsh. 

 

Im sorry but i dont wear rose tinted glasses. 

You think you can implement the death penalty and all fees surrounding it with a budget of £1 per case?

Why is it either what you've said, or put them in a corner and tell them off? Who'd want to do that? You're being silly.

I don't think the death penalty is too harsh at all, I don't wear rose tinted glasses either, I think if it were cost effective and the conviction is made with 100% certainty the death penalty is the right measure to take. Have you read any of what I've said at all?

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20 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

Supposing you don't want to mimic the death penalty that the USA have, what do you propose?

I dont think anyone proposed anything, if you read Figgys first post, he said he  'wished' we had something like what India is doing.
Which if we are realistic, is probably never going to happen in the UK.

All I will say is this, if you want to change peoples criminal behaviour, save a few lives, reduce rape and child sex offences, then you need to change sentencing to something more harsh and make it a real deterrent.
Capital punishment could be part of that.

3 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

You think you can implement the death penalty and all fees surrounding it with a budget of £1 per case?

 

I think it could be done cheaper than that actually, give the perp to the victims family.

And yes I am being silly, theres no way our civilised society would condone that.
We just condone them living a comfortable life ,at OUR expense, and then released, sometimes to do it again.

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Quote

I posted the answer to that half an hour ago!? Lot of ignorance in here. 

Very honest of you to own up. Do your "facts" include the cost of running trials for murderers who murder again? I think not.
 

Quote

 

I'm not for the death penalty, at all.

I don't think the death penalty is too harsh at all, I don't wear rose tinted glasses either, I think if it were cost effective and the conviction is made with 100% certainty the death penalty is the right measure to take

 

Spot the very slight change.:lol::lol:

You post so much drivel, it is hard to know where to start. Your grounds for no death penalty are now firmly based on economics. If I thought the death penalty would save more lives, then blow the cost. Perhaps we could make some savings on overseas aid, MPs' expenses or whatever.

Edited by Gordon R
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22 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Very honest of you to own up. Do your "facts" include the cost of running trials for murderers who murder again? I think not.
 

Spot the very slight change.:lol::lol:

You post so much drivel, it is hard to know where to start. Your grounds for no death penalty are now firmly based on economics. If I thought the death penalty would save more lives, then blow the cost. Perhaps we could make some savings on overseas aid, MPs' expenses or whatever.

Again, missed the point entirely.

I'm not for the death penalty at all, but I don't think it's too harsh a punishment. Are you implying the two statements are contradicting? They're absolutely not.

Do your "facts" include the cost of running trials for murderers who murder again? I think not. Ok - maybe it's a deterrent, show me the proof. I shown you a study before that proposed it wasn't. Why is nobody else here talking about studies, evidence, facts and figures? If it's just an emotional indulgence into how bad we'd like to punish scumbags then let me know and I'll give the conversation a miss. 

Edited by DanBettin
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I’m not sure how anyone can show it’s a deterrent! Has anyone admitted that they would have committed murder but for the death penalty? 

The fact though that a jail sentence isn’t a deterrent either is there for all to see, whereas no one who has been executed has ever reoffended. 

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DanBettin you keep banging on about American laws or components of we want over here. No, non of us as far as im reading want any of the American system of appeal after appeal. All we want is our UK death penalty bringing back, the sentance of judicial punishment as it was in this country not all that long ago.

It would save an awful lot of money and free up places in prisons so other crimes get the jail time they should instead of being let off due to no space.

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1 minute ago, figgy said:

DanBettin you keep banging on about American laws or components of we want over here. No, non of us as far as im reading want any of the American system of appeal after appeal. All we want is our UK death penalty bringing back, the sentance of judicial punishment as it was in this country not all that long ago.

It would save an awful lot of money and free up places in prisons so other crimes get the jail time they should instead of being let off due to no space.

I tried that, it didn't work.

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10 minutes ago, figgy said:

DanBettin you keep banging on about American laws or components of we want over here. No, non of us as far as im reading want any of the American system of appeal after appeal. All we want is our UK death penalty bringing back, the sentance of judicial punishment as it was in this country not all that long ago.

It would save an awful lot of money and free up places in prisons so other crimes get the jail time they should instead of being let off due to no space.

 

8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I tried that, it didn't work.

 

Well I've asked a few times now to be clear on what exactly it is you propose then so I can understand what I'm missing? The only person that got back to me was Dougy with his poundland idea.

I was merely using the USA as an example since it's the most relevant.

Edited by DanBettin
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1 minute ago, DanBettin said:

 

 

Well I've asked a few times now to be clear on what exactly it is you propose then? The only person that got back to me was Dougy with this poundland idea.

I was merely using the USA as an example since it's the most relevant.

What we used to have. Hence the Bring back comments

Edited by Newbie to this
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6 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

What did we used to have? And how does that fit in to modern-day legislation?

?? 

You know what we used to have, the death penalty for capital crimes.
How does that fit into 'modern day legislation' well it doesnt does it ? We changed the law !

Im not sure where you are going with this Dan ?

Its obvious some , including myself, would LIKE the death penalty returned to British law, as it was.
Not the American version ,that no one except yourself has advocated.
No one said it would be too expensive, except you.

I dont think anyone for a minute thinks its going to happen.
We live in a world where people think of the feelings and rights of offenders, including murderers and rapists, before the victims and their families.
 

44 minutes ago, DanBettin said:

If it's just an emotional indulgence into how bad we'd like to punish scumbags then let me know and I'll give the conversation a miss. 

Are we not allowed to discuss punishment, is it a dirty word for you, is it all about rehabilitation ?
Theres some things can be fixed, and some things are just plain broken.

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2 hours ago, hawkfanz said:

,we now have the means to be 100% certain with modern technology so mistakes should never occur again

We don't - we *really* don't...

DNA tests aren't foolproof - because they only look at a restricted set of markers, not the whole genome, which introduces a statistical probability of error - false positive or false negative.

The burden of proof becomes much greater when a person's life rests on the outcome.

Forget scumbag murderers and rapists - let's assume YOU are arrested for murder. You know you are innocent - you were over a hundred miles away, but would you want to bet your life on the proposition that "DNA evidence is foolproof"?

If you don't, why should anyone else?

Abolishing the death penalty isn't about letting the guilty off, it's about protecting the innocent, and preventing irreversible miscarriages of justice.

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