Minimum Price Per Unit Introduced In Scotland

[henry d]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think anyone doubts that the new pricing law will make some people think twice, and it may well save some lives, but to attempt to quantify it is ridiculous.

As in your example above Henry , would the price of it have stopped them, would they do it less often, or just drink less on occasion ? Yes. I`ve had conversations with YP who are cash strapped and they have to use sense if they want to go out with their friends and act just like adults

As you say, 'casual' alcoholics ,who work and have money will not be bothered, but the law wasnt really aimed at them was it ?

No such thing as a casual alcoholic, its the same as being a little bit pregnant, you either are or you are not. High functioning yes, my brother in law is one, even though he does not drink anymore, if his report from his doctors comes back that he can have limited alcohol he will go back to drinking as soon as he finishes work and as soon as he has had 6-8 pints in the pub he will go home and polish off 1/2 crate of strongbow the same as before, and the only thing that seperates him from someone who is guzzling frostys is he has a job and a house over his head and knows as long as he has these it is what seperates him from the other and allows him to continue drinking.

The law is a load of test-ticles and is the same as the airgun law, just something to keep the SNP  looking good at a particular moment in time.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, henry d said:

No such thing as a casual alcoholic, its the same as being a little bit pregnant, you either are or you are not. High functioning yes, my brother in law is one, even though he does not drink anymore, if his report from his doctors comes back that he can have limited alcohol he will go back to drinking as soon as he finishes work and as soon as he has had 6-8 pints in the pub he will go home and polish off 1/2 crate of strongbow the same as before, and the only thing that seperates him from someone who is guzzling frostys is he has a job and a house over his head and knows as long as he has these it is what seperates him from the other and allows him to continue drinking.

The law is a load of test-ticles and is the same as the airgun law, just something to keep the SNP  looking good at a particular moment in time.

Not disagreeing with you on any of it to be honest.

But what I meant by a casual alcoholic, is the person who drinks to excess, but doesnt really consider themselves to have a problem.
I know plenty of people who drink 6 -7 pints a night, or half a bottle of spirits, and then get up the next day to do a fairly taxing job.
My ex used to drink 8 can of lager a night every night, at the weekends more, she ran a busy post office during the day, and has done for 15 years.
Was she an alcoholic? If you were to ask a doctor, or a teetotaller they would say yes definitely.
Back in our younger days, most of us probably (some still might) drank too much, a lot more than the 21 (or 14 !) units recommended.

So its more a case of our own perspectives about what we are, frugal or social drinkers, or casual or functioning alcoholics.

[Gordon R]

Quote

No such thing as a casual alcoholic, its the same as being a little bit pregnant, you either are or you are not

henry d - that is my concern. If someone is alcoholic, I don't think a minimum price will make them stop drinking or reduce their consumption. The price increase could make them worry more and drink more - worst case scenario.

[henry d]

18 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

henry d - that is my concern. If someone is alcoholic, I don't think a minimum price will make them stop drinking or reduce their consumption. The price increase could make them worry more and drink more - worst case scenario.

It will slow some or re-direct others to different brands or types and for YP it will make them think about pooling money to buy spirits I think, but who can second guess them?

Your last sentence is particularly unsettling as this was a theme in the C5 programme series Me & My... in this case addiction. A few of the people they talked to mentioned the spiral of doubt/worry and increase in abuse and that could be bad for the wee alcoholic that sits at home chugging away at their 8% can of whatever and it may be a tipping point for some I would think. (Just checked and the programme isn`t available on playback, I recorded it at the end of last month and watched it a Tuesday)

[Vince Green]

On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 21:17, Gordon R said:

How will the savings in death be measured? Utter garbage.

Exactly! but the saving to the NHS, police and social services budget might be more of a hidden incentive.

The last thing the government actually wants is for alcholics to live longer, alive they cost a fortune, dead they cost nothing 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

13 hours ago, henry d said:

No such thing as a casual alcoholic

There is a saying in America "You don't know you have termites till you fall through the floor" By the time an alcoholic becomes visible they are in the last stages

When I was a lad, one of the things that limited my drinking on a night out was the fact that I had financial constraints, today they can front load on cheap supermarket booze and pay with their credit cards.

Its my belief, although I can't produce any evidence to back up my theory, that easily available credit is a factor that is not often included in this discussion.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Vince Green

[ClemFandango]

17 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Much the same as yourself. You have a confrontational style - I do not envy the world you live in.

I'm confrontational? 

That's the pot calling the kettle black, you are the one responding with personal insults.

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

I'm confrontational? 

That's the pot calling the kettle black, you are the one responding with personal insults.

Personal insults ?

Being called confrontational or being accused of simplistic thinking arent the most cutting of insults really are they, unless you have a really sensitive nature (Is that an insult ?)

You called the man out on his opinion, yet you say you have none of your own on the matter - confrontational for its own sake ?
And , if you dont want to be accused of simplistic thinking, come out with a counter argument or theory, dont just simply rubbish someone elses opinion.

[ClemFandango]

53 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Personal insults ?

Being called confrontational or being accused of simplistic thinking arent the most cutting of insults really are they, unless you have a really sensitive nature (Is that an insult ?)

You called the man out on his opinion, yet you say you have none of your own on the matter - confrontational for its own sake ?
And , if you dont want to be accused of simplistic thinking, come out with a counter argument or theory, dont just simply rubbish someone elses opinion.

I did pose a counter argument and rather than reply with any meaningful response Gordon replied with an insult and then told me I am confrontational. 

[Gordon R]

The counter argument must have by-passed me.  You need to lighten up.

[henry d]

4 hours ago, Vince Green said:

When I was a lad, one of the things that limited my drinking on a night out was the fact that I had financial constraints, today they can front load on cheap supermarket booze and pay with their credit cards. Most of my wifes friends didn`t need to even leave their seats on a recent night out to a large chain pub/restaurant. Ordered and paid via an app and brought to the table, but I doubt that real alcoholics would be doing this, alcoholics in the making perhaps.

Its my belief, although I can't produce any evidence to back up my theory, that easily available credit is a factor that is not often included in this discussion.

Good point, however with other addictions it is very much the case. A friends son is now £0000`s in debt due to gambling addiction and even with the best checks and balances he is still finding ways to get the "buzz". Addictions are horrible diseases

[grrclark]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 Addictions are horrible diseases

Never a truer word spoken.

They are also incredibly difficult to understand as it largely means having to consider things in a way that is alien to most learned behaviours and approaches to thought.

[Vince Green]

I don't go for this rubbish that alcoholism is an illness and we shouldn't blame people for getting into that state. My OH works in the NHS in a mental health unit and health care professionals are not allowed to even suggest to people that they should reduce their drinking or lose weight because its judgemental.

If the patient initiates the conversation they can respond with advice (carefully worded) but they cannot open the discussion or say anything that might be regarded as unsympathetic.

My view is that a bit of tough love might work in some cases, not all obviously. Probably not even many because by the time an alcoholic comes to the attention of a Mental Health Unit its too late to save them. 

[Scully]

39 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

........ by the time an alcoholic comes to the attention of a Mental Health Unit its too late to save them. 

Yes. My OH’s sister died an alcoholic and numerous doctors and specialists said there were probably underlying mental health problems which had led to her alcoholism, but they couldn’t treat the underlying issues until she stopped drinking. She never did. 

I honestly can’t see the SNP’s initiative having any effect on the people it is intended to target. 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Scully

[Rewulf]

Am I right in thinking alcoholics get extra benefit money due to their 'condition' ?
Not sure if its the same in Scotland ,but Im sure in England they do.

I can see a situation where they are given more money to compensate for the higher booze prices.
Rendering the whole exercise pointless as far as they are concerned.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Am I right in thinking alcoholics get extra benefit money due to their 'condition' ?
Not sure if its the same in Scotland ,but Im sure in England they do.

I can see a situation where they are given more money to compensate for the higher booze prices.
Rendering the whole exercise pointless as far as they are concerned.

They certainly qualify for the full spectrum of sickness benefits and incapacity benefits if their condition justifies this. In one sense I have no problem with that because there are usually other family members and kids in the picture who are in need of support.

The problem is the dependents don't get the support. It would be so easy to create debit cards that can't be used to buy booze or get cashback and so on. Then pay the benefits money into a secure bank account that pays rent etc automatically and the money can't be taken out to buy booze.

Put the person under a control order and make it illegal to give payday loans or credit cards to people on a control order. The reason they don't do it is because the snowflakes say it will drive women into prostitution and shoplifting. Men into other forms of crime but its not a perfect world.  The kids should come first.

Can you believe alcoholics can (in some circumstances) qualify for mobility cars! its true! the lunatic snowflakes have a lot to answer for. A lot of it is just appeasement, social workers have only one strategy, throw money at every problem. They are not allowed to get tough or threaten them, I think they should.

Lock them up in a secure drying out unit like they do in America, the success rate is not high but while they are in there the family get respite and some people do turn their lives around. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Vince Green

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

It would be so easy to create debit cards that can't be used to buy booze or get cashback and so on. Then pay the benefits money into a secure bank account that pays rent etc automatically

There is a very strong case for this in many benefits situations, not just alcohol related.

[walshie]

The Scottish government really didn't think this through did they? People will be doing booze runs to England or English people doing runs over the border. The alkies will still be drinking, but the government won't be getting any revenue at all.

[Gordon R]

I honestly believe it is about headline grabbing. Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't been in the limelight lately, prattling on about "strong for Scotland". This puts her back in centre stage - the position she craves.

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Yes. My OH’s sister died an alcoholic and numerous doctors and specialists said there were probably underlying mental health problems which had led to her alcoholism, but they couldn’t treat the underlying issues until she stopped drinking.  

 

Classic catch 22, caught in a loop that means nobody does anything to help. Doctors know alcoholics are a lost cause, easier to let them die, that's the brutal truth. Unless you can afford to check into the Priory at about £5k a week but a lot of them still die, its just therapy not a cure. Rick Parfitt from Status Quo was a classic example, he spent more time in Roehampton Priory than out of it. 

[AULD YIN]

When i was a bairn and stayed up the toon we had methies (meth drinkers) and to get an extra kick they mixed the meths with belair (hair spray) ,nowadays you have to sign to purchase  meths and no belair now.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Classic catch 22, caught in a loop that means nobody does anything to help. Doctors know alcoholics are a lost cause, easier to let them die, that's the brutal truth. Unless you can afford to check into the Priory at about £5k a week but a lot of them still die, its just therapy not a cure. Rick Parfitt from Status Quo was a classic example, he spent more time in Roehampton Priory than out of it. 

Not sure about the easier to let them die statement. She had eleven ambulance trips ( all 999 calls ) and numerous operations and prolonged hospital stays, plus a drink/drive conviction, plus medication over who knows how many years, and benefits payments. 

[Vince Green]

On ‎04‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 08:10, Scully said:

Not sure about the easier to let them die statement. She had eleven ambulance trips ( all 999 calls ) and numerous operations and prolonged hospital stays, plus a drink/drive conviction, plus medication over who knows how many years, and benefits payments. 

That sort of ties in with what I was trying to say but maybe I didn't say it the best way. Alcoholics can be a massive cost to NHS, police and Social Services, Doctors will do what they have a duty to do but they know there is little point in trying anything to rehabilitate the patient.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Vince Green

[Bigbob]

I can see it now on the sunday markets instead of the stall holder "Do you smoke mate ?" , Do you drink mate got a nice selection under the table LOL 

[Wing it]

Well folks I've had a right good read of this thread and at times a wee chuckle. So I thought I'll throw in my views. For those who have lost loved ones through addiction my condolences. However I don't believe addiction is an illness. People with illnesses don't have the choice. The increase in price will have no effect people will turn to cheaper alternatives, drugs home made gut rot, (no offence to the home brewers )or whatever. The effect on the NHS social services and the police will be minuscule as these services are not at breaking point they're broken. 

Im all for saving life's and no amount of money can replace a loved one. But yet again I'm paying for others life style choices.

Big rant for a first post but it really does rip my knitting