Brodie Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 Whilst the current interest is in reducing plastic waste we are still depositing lead shot over land everywhere. What's worse - lead or plastic waste contamination? Both need addressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Brodie said: Whilst the current interest is in reducing plastic waste we are still depositing lead shot over land everywhere. What's worse - lead or plastic waste contamination? Both need addressing. Haven’t we already done this? Obviously, of the two, plastic is more detrimental to the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, PPP said: If only there were a proven, widely available, more effective shot material available that ideally had been proven over hundreds of years and was able to be loaded with fibre wads and for all calibres....oh, hang on a moment... Well blame the government for signing up to the AEWA! Along with BASC and their former CEO, who was in charge at BASC when the resultant lead shot ban over wetlands was enacted! Including the ridiculous 'species specific' element banning the shooting ducks and geese with lead anywhere in England and Wales!.......seemingly without any effective opposition? And who after leaving BASC, showed his true colours when he chaired the LAG and advised the government to impose a total ban (which rightly never happened!) on shooting with lead shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 On 02/05/2018 at 13:51, Smokersmith said: If only we had a body that looked after both shooting and conservation to help drive this ... now yer talking.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 Doesn't BASC look after Shooting and Conservation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 In the recent wildfowl magazine it was reported that Kent are to release bismuth cartridges at the same price as steel cartridges in America and Canada and the shot would be manufactured by the company they own in England called Gamebore! Just imagine if we could have a fibre wad bismuth cartridge at the same price as Steel ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPP Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, johnnytheboy said: In the recent wildfowl magazine it was reported that Kent are to release bismuth cartridges at the same price as steel cartridges in America and Canada and the shot would be manufactured by the company they own in England called Gamebore! Just imagine if we could have a fibre wad bismuth cartridge at the same price as Steel ? Outrageous, so we get stuck with 300% uplift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkey Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 Not just plastic wads as a problem what about the cases a move back to paper cased shells would be on the cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 http://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 50 minutes ago, PPP said: Outrageous, so we get stuck with 300% uplift... If this happens then I would agree that we would be getting shafted if they can manufacture shot and ship it to the other side of the world and compete against steel prices! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 3, 2018 Report Share Posted May 3, 2018 3 hours ago, panoma1 said: Well blame the government for signing up to the AEWA! Along with BASC and their former CEO, who was in charge at BASC when the resultant lead shot ban over wetlands was enacted! Including the ridiculous 'species specific' element banning the shooting ducks and geese with lead anywhere in England and Wales!.......seemingly without any effective opposition? And who after leaving BASC, showed his true colours when he chaired the LAG and advised the government to impose a total ban (which rightly never happened!) on shooting with lead shot! I do not know how many times I have posted this over the years, but lead shot poisons waterfowl. Full stop. If anyone does not believe this rase a few mallard this spring and scatter a few lead pellets in their pond and see how many you have alive after a month. I can tell you now. , None. All will be dead, poisoned by the lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 What ever happened to copper shot? that was supposed to be future. Supposedly cheaper to produce than steel and not damaging to barrels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 10 hours ago, anser2 said: I do not know how many times I have posted this over the years, but lead shot poisons waterfowl. Full stop. If anyone does not believe this rase a few mallard this spring and scatter a few lead pellets in their pond and see how many you have alive after a month. I can tell you now. , None. All will be dead, poisoned by the lead. If anything ingests anything that is bad for them, in sufficient quantities, it will eventually have a detrimental effect on their health, air pollution kills humans, alcohol kills humans....eat enough paracetamol and it will kill you! They are all poisons!.......For Christ's sake overeating and drinking too much of anything including water, can kill you!....what has banning lead shot for killing geese over agricultural land got to do with anything? Numbers of Pinkfooted geese in Scotland are increasing Year on Year! Lead is still used inland there........So it ain't detrimentally affecting their numbers in Scotland! In your example you are advocating 'feeding' duck lead shot.........of course they will eventually die if they ingest enough!....but is not that also the case if they eat enough of anything they shouldn't? I personally support measures to mitigate the effect of lead shot ingested by wildfowl, such as the law as it is enacted in Scotland, where there is no ban on lead shot for shooting ducks and geese over non wetland areas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Vince Green said: What ever happened to copper shot? that was supposed to be future. Supposedly cheaper to produce than steel and not damaging to barrels I bought copper shot twice and it was £2 a cartridge! Far from cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Lead shot poisons waterfowl, full stop! Lead also poisons man. Handle enough melting and shot making then it will be detected. Lead shot is less accessible on field, but is accessible to avian species. The Scotland issue is a delicate one, what happens when game shooting land gets flooded or Scottish field where it has been shot a lot, that previously safe lead becomes a main risk. Please look to the future. Not just hoping to being able to whack a duck if and when the situation arrives. It's been stated by many posts here that duck has been shot. The subsequent posts are adjusted to "be more clear with the compliance with the law" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Lead shot poisons waterfowl, full stop! Lead also poisons man. Handle enough melting and shot making then it will be detected. Lead shot is less accessible, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 I don’t think anyone is disputing the toxicity of lead, but we’ve had this debate in Parliament haven’t we? Lead shot is banned in various places, but plastic wads or cases aren’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 The stupid thing is anybody can set up a clay trap on the waters edge and shoot clays with lead shot over the water as much as they like. Similarly they can shoot pigeon over water quite legally, that's not a ban its just poor legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, panoma1 said: If anything ingests anything that is bad for them, in sufficient quantities, it will eventually have a detrimental effect on their health, air pollution kills humans, alcohol kills humans....eat enough paracetamol and it will kill you! They are all poisons!.......For Christ's sake overeating and drinking too much of anything including water, can kill you!....what has banning lead shot for killing geese over agricultural land got to do with anything? Numbers of Pinkfooted geese in Scotland are increasing Year on Year! Lead is still used inland there........So it ain't detrimentally affecting their numbers in Scotland! In your example you are advocating 'feeding' duck lead shot.........of course they will eventually die if they ingest enough!....but is not that also the case if they eat enough of anything they shouldn't? I personally support measures to mitigate the effect of lead shot ingested by wildfowl, such as the law as it is enacted in Scotland, where there is no ban on lead shot for shooting ducks and geese over non wetland areas! I am not advocating feeding mallard lead shot. However, it takes just one lead pellet to kill a duck, just one and I can say that from practical experience from keeping wild duck in captivity. My boss shot a squirrel from a branch over one of our ponds. Most of the pellets would have passed well over the duck pens and only a few that bounced off the branch would have found their way into the water below. Within days we had a number of sick ducks and all were dead in a week. An autopsy showed each had swallowed between one and three pellets. So any one who claims the risk is slight it talking rubbish. I know of a wet field where light shooting took place, mainly for snipe. Later it was decided to dig ponds for a wildfowl collections, but the project had to be abandoned due to poisoning of waterfowl from lead pellets. A similar thing happened in the early days of Slimbridge In the USA before lead was banned, it was estimated from sampling dead birds over 5% of duck died from lead poisoning. The Scotish situation is a farce. How can anyone prove any shot duck were shot over a dry field or a wetland. Unless you are watching the shooting taking place its impossible. Just because the land is not wet it does not mean lead pellets are not eaten by birds> Work done in the USA has shown a wide range of birds have died from lead pellet poisoning. LEAD PELLETS POSION. FULL STOP. 10 hours ago, Vince Green said: What ever happened to copper shot? that was supposed to be future. Supposedly cheaper to produce than steel and not damaging to barrels But even more toxic than lead. Edited May 4, 2018 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, anser2 said: I am not advocating feeding mallard lead shot. However, it takes just one lead pellet to kill a duck, just one and I can say that from practical experience from keeping wild duck in captivity. My boss shot a squirrel from a branch over one of our ponds. Most of the pellets would have passed well over the duck pens and only a few that bounced off the branch would have found their way into the water below. Within days we had a number of sick ducks and all were dead in a week. An autopsy showed each had swallowed between one and three pellets. So any one who claims the risk is slight it talking rubbish. I know of a wet field where light shooting took place, mainly for snipe. Later it was decided to dig ponds for a wildfowl collections, but the project had to be abandoned due to poisoning of waterfowl from lead pellets. A similar thing happened in the early days of Slimbridge In the USA before lead was banned, it was estimated from sampling dead birds over 5% of duck died from lead poisoning. The Scotish situation is a farce. How can anyone prove any shot duck were shot over a dry field or a wetland. Unless you are watching the shooting taking place its impossible. Just because the land is not wet it does not mean lead pellets are not eaten by birds> Work done in the USA has shown a wide range of birds have died from lead pellet poisoning. LEAD PELLETS POSION. FULL STOP. But even more toxic than lead. Perhaps you could direct us to the peer reviewed scientific papers, from which you are drawing your conclusions? Are you claiming the government ignored evidence and consequently was wrong, when it declined to bring in legislation to ban lead shot despite the biased report provided by their own Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) chaired by the former CEO of BASC? And despite the continuous lobbying pressure to ban lead shot from from the protectionist WWT and RSPB! Edited May 4, 2018 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 21 hours ago, Donkey said: Not just plastic wads as a problem what about the cases a move back to paper cased shells would be on the cards I don't consider cases as much a problem as wads as we hopefully all pick up our cases and can choose where to dispose of them sensibly. Regarding paper cases, is the paper recyclable as it's bound to be coated or printed with something non-recyclable like so much packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttfjlc Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 Not sure if anyone has already seen this but I didnt realise this was being done already until SWMBO pointed it out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-lincolnshire-43898973/how-shotgun-cartridges-can-be-changed-into-benches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Brodie said: I don't consider cases as much a problem as wads as we hopefully all pick up our cases and can choose where to dispose of them sensibly. Regarding paper cases, is the paper recyclable as it's bound to be coated or printed with something non-recyclable like so much packaging. Paper cases are never going to be recyclable but they will rot away in a couple of years whether they are in a hedge or a land fill site (or in a heap at the bottom of your garden). Plastic cases, even if you dispose of them sensibly you are still shifting the problem to a land fill site where they will remain buried in the ground for thousands of years. Edited May 4, 2018 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 4, 2018 Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, Ttfjlc said: Not sure if anyone has already seen this but I didnt realise this was being done already until SWMBO pointed it out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-lincolnshire-43898973/how-shotgun-cartridges-can-be-changed-into-benches There are lots of these well intentioned green sounding initiatives but it is window dressing. The plastic is not being destroyed or made "safe" whatever safe means in reality. It is merely being turned into another form, in this case, benches. In ten, twenty years time when the benches are no longer required what are they going to do with them then? Its not solving a problem its only postponing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2018 18 minutes ago, Vince Green said: There are lots of these well intentioned green sounding initiatives but it is window dressing. The plastic is not being destroyed or made "safe" whatever safe means in reality. It is merely being turned into another form, in this case, benches. In ten, twenty years time when the benches are no longer required what are they going to do with them then? Its not solving a problem its only postponing it. Some of the wooden and some of the metal benches around here have been replaced by awful thick chunky brown plastic benches. Yes, they'll never rot or rust away, but that's the problem isnt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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