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It's not you, it's me! (22LR accuracy)


Houseplant
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I've had my CZ452 for 2.5 years now. I like the rifle, but have never managed to get the groups on paper that some folk seem to manage. I was getting a bit paranoid, was the rifle a bad one, was the scope not level, maybe the ammo was no good etc. Anyway, I put some time in on the range today and learnt a few things. The main one being that the biggest variable was me. By really working on technique, I managed to get 5 shots touching at 50 metres, more or less in a repeatable way. How this translates to a hunting situation, I'm not sure, but at least I know the rifle is OK. Other things were that the rifle prefers a fouled barrel, sequential 5 shot groups got consistently closer after cleaning and CCI subsonics were definitely better than Eley subsonics. Any comments?

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36 minutes ago, Dunkield said:

What did you change?

A very good question! The main things were getting in a completely relaxed position, taking my hand off the forend altogether and letting the rest do the job, and yes, follow through. 

27 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Try RWS subs or even HVHP - superb quality.

It's a struggle to get RWS here, but they are on the list to try in due course. I want to stay subsonic. If I was to go supersonic, then I would probably go with a different calibre. 

21 minutes ago, Scully said:

Rightly or wrongly I never clean my .22rf. It never seems to lose zero and consistently prints groups which transfer to the field with devastating effect.

I mostly shoot Winchester subs but find Eley just as good. 

That's the thing. I was brought up to take great care of my guns. It's so ingrained. Putting a fouled gun back in the safe would probably cause me to lose sleep! Tried Winchester subs, not so good for me.

Edited by Houseplant
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Not wishing to spoil your findings, I think we are up against it with consistency in manufacture of the rounds. I thought I'd found the holy gail in Eley subs. Stupid accurate out to 100yards. See this video by another fan. However, a batch or two later and they are all over the place, some barely making it out of the barrel I had exactly the same with Winchester and took it up with them, to no avail. I've yet pull some bullets from different batches to weigh the charges, just out of curiosity. I will at some point though. I would imagine its down to the minuscule powder charge and the complexities of metering consistent charges. Now if it was possible to load 22 subs, that would be something!

 

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A lot of people never, or rarely clean their rimfires it seems. Can't argue, I saw the difference myself today. For most of my rabbit shooting which is sub-50 metres, it doesn't really matter because I can get 1.5 inch groups with a clean barrel, but I want to push that distance out a bit, so then it will become more important.

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2 minutes ago, turbo33 said:

Not wishing to spoil your findings, I think we are up against it with consistency in manufacture of the rounds. I thought I'd found the holy gail in Eley subs. Stupid accurate out to 100yards. See this video by another fan. However, a batch or two later and they are all over the place, some barely making it out of the barrel I had exactly the same with Winchester and took it up with them, to no avail. I've yet pull some bullets from different batches to weigh the charges, just out of curiosity. I will at some point though. I would imagine its down to the minuscule powder charge and the complexities of metering consistent charges. Now if it was possible to load 22 subs, that would be something!

 

 

I am aware of that. It does feel like I'm chasing my tail with this rimfire stuff sometimes! I read about a guy in Aussie who weighs all his rimfire ammo and batches them according to weight. Apparently, it is the Holy Grail of rimfire accuracy! 

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Im afraid you just have to keep testing, then test some more.When you find a round that works, buy lots !

Also dont forget about the trigger, is it too hard ? Are you pulling it slightly ?
I tend to start at 25 yards and work my way forward up to a distance where myself and the gun are no longer consistent.
If you cant get it right with the rifle benched and still, with no wind and 'good' ammo, it really wont translate when you are shooting live quarry in less than ideal situations.
Know the limitations of the gun, the round and yourself.

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I don't think its a totally mad idea to weigh the rounds and batch them. It doesn't take a moment per round and check zero with each new batch and I'm pretty convinced  the accuracy will be really good. Its the closest we can get to reloading which we do for accuracy by way of consistency  in other calibres.

You can see the whole thread if you search "interesting 22 subs findings" in bullets, cartridges and reloading, Jan 1st.  But heres the opening post I made.

Quote

I popped a post on here a couple of weeks ago about a duff batch of Eley subs. It was disappointing as ordinarily, the CZ452 with Eleys is blisteringly accurate. Sub MOA. It used to wipe the eye of the HMR. Well boredom and curiosity got the better of me yesterday. Now I know this isn't the most scientific and necessarily accurate analysis, but it is quite interesting.

So, out with the Lyman Gen 6 scales, which are superbly accurate. I had 3 different batches of Eley subs. batch 1, two full boxes (100) date of manufacture 2013, batch 2, two full boxes (100) date of manufacture 2016, batch 3 (duff) 80 rounds date of manufacture 2016. All weighed as an unfired round.

Batch 1 ranging from 51.4grns to 52.3grns    .9grn spread with the majority at 51.8

batch 2, ranging from 48.9grns to 49.6grns   0.7grn spread with majority at 49.1

batch 3, ranging from  46.2grns to 47.9     1.7grn spread no clear majority.

 

I wasn't in a position to chrono them, which would have been further interesting info, but with batch three some of them barely made it out of the barrel!  Now I know there will be a variance from round to round with the bullet weight and the case. The rest is down to the powder/primer charge. I will pull some bullets and weigh some cases at some point, just out of curiosity. But it would be interesting to see, what improvement in accuracy can be obtained by whizzing some over the scales into group lots. At the very least, in future, I shall be checking the boxes are all from the same batch number, and not just buying a few boxes. I have questioned if I need to see someone about this pedantic nature!! But in all seriousness, the 22lr with subs is a fantastic tool, and I'm convinced there is so much more to be had from it, for such little effort. 


 

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Edited by turbo33
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20 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Im afraid you just have to keep testing, then test some more.When you find a round that works, buy lots !

Also dont forget about the trigger, is it too hard ? Are you pulling it slightly ?

Factory trigger setup was awful and yes, I was pulling to the right. Have installed a YoDave trigger and much better. Just to clarify, I am happy with accuracy for now.


If you cant get it right with the rifle benched and still, with no wind and 'good' ammo, it really wont translate when you are shooting live quarry in less than ideal situations.
Know the limitations of the gun, the round and yourself.

I agree. I wanted to know the limitations of the gun. In truth, the gun can shoot better than I can. 

 

Edited by Houseplant
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22lr been shooting for years  10mm groups 100yrds now fibromyalgia struggle with a 10mm group at 50m dew to fibromyalgia  body shivering uncontrollably  all about grouping shots and polishing cz triggers units or after market replacement units cant go wrong 

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The one thing that has the biggest negative impact on any 22 I have ever had is cleaning the barrel. I do not clean them ever any more.

I have found over the years that practice plays a very big role in accuracy, it is one thing that needs constant practice rather than just coming back to it whenever.

Paper targets are easy compared to hunting live targets. The adrenalin gets your heart pumping and makes holding the gun steady harder and the "moment" can cause rushed shots where a paper target will wait forever.

Fitness plays a role, just walking to a paper target and back often requires a rest until my heart slows back down a bit and when out hunting the chances are you can't take that breather.

I admire those biathlon shooters that ski and then shoot, beats me how they do that.

Then of course there is choice of ammo, each gun seems to have it's favourite.

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I’ve just gone back to an air rifle to get back to my roots and get my hold, grip , balance etc better again. It’s good to chuck 100+ rounds through and practice.

the only down side with c/f is it’s to expensive to throw 100+ rounds through one and practice.

i like the 22lr for a plink too 

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On 2/5/2018 at 09:52, Houseplant said:

I've had my CZ452 for 2.5 years now. I like the rifle, but have never managed to get the groups on paper that some folk seem to manage. I was getting a bit paranoid, was the rifle a bad one, was the scope not level, maybe the ammo was no good etc. Anyway, I put some time in on the range today and learnt a few things. The main one being that the biggest variable was me. By really working on technique, I managed to get 5 shots touching at 50 metres, more or less in a repeatable way. How this translates to a hunting situation, I'm not sure, but at least I know the rifle is OK. Other things were that the rifle prefers a fouled barrel, sequential 5 shot groups got consistently closer after cleaning and CCI subsonics were definitely better than Eley subsonics. Any comments?

Keep doing what you're doing mate, if you can get cloverleaf groupings at 50 metres with  a .22 then you're ok.

 

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On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 11:00, turbo33 said:

Not wishing to spoil your findings, I think we are up against it with consistency in manufacture of the rounds. I thought I'd found the holy gail in Eley subs. Stupid accurate out to 100yards. See this video by another fan. However, a batch or two later and they are all over the place, some barely making it out of the barrel I had exactly the same with Winchester and took it up with them, to no avail. I've yet pull some bullets from different batches to weigh the charges, just out of curiosity. I will at some point though. I would imagine its down to the minuscule powder charge and the complexities of metering consistent charges. Now if it was possible to load 22 subs, that would be something!

 

I was having trouble when I was using Remington subs so I took the trouble to weigh each individual round out of the same box not one of them weighed the same so I changed  to R W S what a difference all the rounds weighed the same and tight groups no problem.

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1 hour ago, The Heron said:

I was having trouble when I was using Remington subs so I took the trouble to weigh each individual round out of the same box not one of them weighed the same so I changed  to R W S what a difference all the rounds weighed the same and tight groups no problem.

hello, my best subs to for a CZ 455, note my post on cleaning the wax off first, saves a lot of gunge in the breach 

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On 5/5/2018 at 14:12, The Heron said:

I was having trouble when I was using Remington subs so I took the trouble to weigh each individual round out of the same box not one of them weighed the same so I changed  to R W S what a difference all the rounds weighed the same and tight groups no problem.

Remington are shocking:no: If ever there was an inaccurate round, they have to take first place, cheap of course..........usual story. We owe it to our quarry to be as accurate and humane as possible.

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If it's any help, really good small bore target rifle shooters (people who use expensive German and Swiss rifles), can regularly achieve, with 'iron' sights, nearly 100/100 at 25 yards i.e.  groups of about 12 mm max. with outward gauging, and the same at 50 metres , with inward gauging, from groups of about 15 mm max.) and they 

1. generally clean their barrels after each match or practice;

2. generally select their ammunition by batch testing at Bisley or elsewhere because even the most expensive ammunition (at £200 or more per 1000) will produce very different results in any given barrel according to the particular batch. No need, however, to weigh each round.

I am merely an average club shooter (94-96 average at 25 yards) with a 30 year old Anschutz 1800 series rifle, but I buy batch tested ammunition and I can testify that in the 'wrong' barrel even the most expensive ammunition can give 10 shot groups of up to 25 mm at 50 metres, which is not going to be competitive. In other words, barrels are funny things and unpredictably choosy.

If you don't clean your barrel, you run the risk of nasty compounds reacting with moisture to produce a corrosive mixture. And in the very long run an uncleaned .22 barrel will probably accumulate enough lead  to turn it into the equivalent of a small calibre smooth bore musket. Of course, after a thorough cleaning nearly every barrel will require 1-5 shots (sometimes more) to be conditioned by the grease/wax on the bullets before it will shoot really accurately.

Merely my two penny worth. Your mile may vary.

 

 

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I had a 452 in HMR flavour and found that the wooden stock ‘moved’ twice over time  and ended up touching the barrel which affected the accuracy.  Cured it both times by sanding out the barrel channel with the paper wrapped around a length of tube.... either copper water pipe or a good old Parker Hale rimfire moderator.

I use Eley subs in my F’fire Mk1 sporter standard length barrel with an SM2 mod on the front..... these gave the best groups over various makes of ammo and mods.

As with many others, I’ve never cleaned a .22 barrel and neither did my dad before me... he used to shoot at county levels.

cheers

Fizz

Edited by fizzbangwhallop
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We used to go the Eley to batch test target rounds when I was into paper punching.  Loads is weighting measuring etc and then refine again latter at home to get best consistency. 

Now a days Winnie or Eley subs work for me unless plink at spinners where Remi is cheap as chips for fun.  

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