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An "offer" from Belgium


ditchman
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So its not really a solution then??

Which ever way it goes someone has to back down and go against there constitution.

 

I voted to leave but my eyes were wide open to a lot of things, i think some just assume the EU is going to roll over.on everything to make their lifes easy.

Why would they.

If i was a EU negotator i would know i had the UK by the balls over this, they may well not really care about the irish border (which wouldn't surprise me) but they will make sure it costs the UK dear at the negotating table. I know i would, its not rocket science

It knows the UK has absolutley no room for manouvre as the DUP has it by the balls now and it has already stated it very publicly the 2 logical things can't happen (hard border either at ports or inland) wot the UK NEEDS to happen simply can't without a major EU climb down and it changing its constitution and setting a precedent.

The Eu  is holding all the cards for this hand and really just a question of wot it costs us to see the hand. And it will be an expensive hand to see

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Youre right on a lot of that. 

However, the most important bit is this. 

What do the people of Ireland want? How bad do they NOT want to see that hard border? Are they a sovereign nation, or are they ruled by Brussels.? 

They should do what's best for Ireland. 

It's all very well the EU going on about borders, and they can't have this and they can't have that, they are making it up to suit the negotiating stance, they have open borders all across Europe, between EU and non EU countries! It doesn't seem to be a problem then does it? 

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I haveno idea wot the people of ireland want.

 

Being honest i doubt a lot of them really care that much apart fron those in the immediate areas or with family in the 6.

Probably the biggest problem they'd have with a hard border would be more political/symbolic stand point as it seems to split ireland up again

Saddly at end of day it doesnae really matter wot the people want,

 

So now u want Eire to leave EU so u don't have to pass throu a border ur probably never likely to anyway??

I think Eire tends to be quite pro EU generally, but also they are in a very different boat with having the euro as currency and so much borrowed money of the EU.

While UK was a net conributor to the EU money tree/kitty i'd guess Eire wil be a fairly big reciever from the kitty,

Why would the folk vote to leave when they're being handed free cash??

A hard border that few folk really cross (and its only really been the last 15-20 yrs its been an open border anyway) might be a small price to pay if they  keep getting handed bags of FREE euros

 

I would have even bigger doubts about leaving the EU if UK had the euro as a currency and owed as much as Eire does, it probably could not afford to leave even if it wanted too

 

It really is not as simple as made out and also well above my pay grade

God knows wot will happen althou my monies on it being a complete shambles with May's tory government and EU being involved

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Both the EU and the Irish government are using the border to try and get concessions out of the UK.   The Irish government also see a opportunity for a land grab, they would see a border in the Irish sea as another step to a united Ireland, they will of course deny this. By talking up hard borders peace process problems etc they are plying a dangerous game that could come back to hunt them. 

 

Quote

Britain's decision to leave the EU is being used to make a "land-grab" for Northern Ireland, a senior Irish government minister has claimed.

 

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1 hour ago, ordnance said:

The Irish government also see a opportunity for a land grab, they would see a border in the Irish sea as another step to a united Ireland, they will of course deny this. 

 

 

Why would the Irish government want a united ireland? It would add 1.7 million people disproportionately dependant on state support and state funded healthcare without the corresponding economic activity to fund it, and voting patterns grossly out of kilter with every major Irish party. 

I could see why Westminster might try and use Brexit to push Northern Ireland out to end up as an independent state, but I can't see why the Irish would conceivably want the place back. 

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44 minutes ago, Wb123 said:

Why would the Irish government want a united ireland? It would add 1.7 million people disproportionately dependant on state support and state funded healthcare without the corresponding economic activity to fund it, and voting patterns grossly out of kilter with every major Irish party. 

I could see why Westminster might try and use Brexit to push Northern Ireland out to end up as an independent state, but I can't see why the Irish would conceivably want the place back. 

Yes if they had any sense they would leave things the way they are, i see it as a case of  be careful what you wish for.  If it did come to it they would want the EU and the UK government to keep paying the bill for the foreseeable future. Uniting north and south would make brexit look like a walk in the park, as for state funded healthcare its called the NHS something that everyone in the UK is entitled to.

 

Quote

 

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar has said he aspires to a united Ireland based on "cross-community support" in remarks released on Tuesday, the UK Press Association reported."In terms of a united Ireland, our constitution is clear on this," he said. "Our constitution aspires to there being a united Ireland. I share that aspiration."

 

 
Edited by ordnance
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Theresa May shot the country in the feet with both barrels when she recklessly spurned the chance of joining the European Free Trade Association, preferring instead to rely on some as yet undrafted  'bespoke' agreement that the EU  all along has warned was most probably based on 'magical thinking'. And now the chickens are starting to wing their way home.

The EU's position has been nothing if not consistent. The UK was choosing to leave the EU. That was the UK's privilege. And while an amicable divorce was in everyone's interests, the EU would not and could not compromise the integrity of the single market to accommodate British domestic political concerns. Any proposal from the UK as to how it wanted to leave the EU - and it was the UK choosing to leave so the ball was in its court-  must take into account existing EU principles and laws as agreed and signed off on by the other 27 members.

Right from the very beginning this has been the EU position, repeated ad nauseam. Unfortunately, May, Boris, and all the rest have been fantasizing a parallel reality in which the other 27 member states tear up their mutual agreements to mollify Jacob Rees-Mogg or Arlene Foster. But that is never, ever going to happen. So now it's wake up and smell the coffee time.

Edited by Retsdon
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Ireland should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. By no stretch of the imagination did it ever meet the financial conditions for entry. They are not alone in that, probably most of member states were allowed to join when they should not have.

It is one of the most fundamental reasons why the EU is doomed to fail and why we have to get out.

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A few points for me

1. border or no border, has nothing to do with the EU, it is for Ireland, the UK or particularly Northern Ireland to decide.

2. Other EU states have country's not in the EU that border them with no hard border and is a non issue, funny then the EU is making this one of the biggest sticking points of the "negotiations". It is blatantly obvious what they are doing and it is disgusting as the consequences if they stir up the hornets nest could be terrible, but then it doesn't surrise me, look at the deafening silence from the EU when Spain was beating their own people over the Catalan event, the EU is all for democracy, political correctness and freedom when it matches their agenda, biggest hypocrites ever!

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On 06/05/2018 at 00:40, ordnance said:

Yes if they had any sense they would leave things the way they are, i see it as a case of  be careful what you wish for.  If it did come to it they would want the EU and the UK government to keep paying the bill for the foreseeable future. Uniting north and south would make brexit look like a walk in the park, as for state funded healthcare its called the NHS something that everyone in the UK is entitled to.

 

 

Do you really think the Irish state would want to keep the NHS going for their new subjects in the north whilst running a profoundly different system for everyone else? It would be political suicide to attempt it on the southern side of the border, whilst arguing against it would also wipe out any support from the new voters for whoever was seen to be the figure head. It would be equivalent to Westminster adding twenty million staunch communists to the electorate.

Whilst I think a unified Ireland is probably in the best interests of most over here, even more so post Brexit vote, I don't think it is practical to make a sudden change after a border poll or the like. I would prefer to see increased devolution without the safety nets previously provided to push towards a semi independent Northern Ireland and an eventual independence referendum. In the process of doing the above I would expect Northern Ireland to become more closely aligned with the Republic, if the two then wanted to join up then they can sort it out amongst themselves.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Wb123 said:

Do you really think the Irish state would want to keep the NHS going for their new subjects in the north whilst running a profoundly different system for everyone else? It would be political suicide to attempt it on the southern side of the border, whilst arguing against it would also wipe out any support from the new voters for whoever was seen to be the figure head. It would be equivalent to Westminster adding twenty million staunch communists to the electorate.

Whilst I think a unified Ireland is probably in the best interests of most over here, even more so post Brexit vote, I don't think it is practical to make a sudden change after a border poll or the like. I would prefer to see increased devolution without the safety nets previously provided to push towards a semi independent Northern Ireland and an eventual independence referendum. In the process of doing the above I would expect Northern Ireland to become more closely aligned with the Republic, if the two then wanted to join up then they can sort it out amongst themselves.

 

 

 As John Hume said its not a divided island that's the problem but a divided people. A united Ireland.  (what does that even mean, it means different things to different people) can not be forced on people border poll or not,  there will never be a united Ireland unless people can be convinced that its in their interest and they are happy to go along with it. At the minute the political parties here cant even agree with each other on mundane issues never mind anything else. 

Probably best leave it as it is, people can have dual citizenship and identify as Irish  British or EU citizens.

Edited by ordnance
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18 minutes ago, Wb123 said:

Do you really think the Irish state would want to keep the NHS going for their new subjects in the north whilst running a profoundly different system for everyone else? It would be political suicide to attempt it on the southern side of the border, whilst arguing against it would also wipe out any support from the new voters for whoever was seen to be the figure head. It would be equivalent to Westminster adding twenty million staunch communists to the electorate.

Whilst I think a unified Ireland is probably in the best interests of most over here, even more so post Brexit vote, I don't think it is practical to make a sudden change after a border poll or the like. I would prefer to see increased devolution without the safety nets previously provided to push towards a semi independent Northern Ireland and an eventual independence referendum. In the process of doing the above I would expect Northern Ireland to become more closely aligned with the Republic, if the two then wanted to join up then they can sort it out amongst themselves.

 

 

A lot of sense above, but sadly i doubt it would ever really work. The unionists would never allow it too.

While holyrood is a complete joke, stormont is even worse, they really couldnae organise a bevvy up in a brewery, 1 side will just vote against the other no matter how good the idea is for the people

 

But i think NI/Eire is quite a strange place both politically and religousily with hundreds of years of mistrust, intorlerance and in some cases hatred.

It was only relatively recently that some either catholics/prodastants simply could walk in some parts of the city which were walled off.

I dunno if it truely is totally safe for them yet in the wrong part of town?

Have to admit thankfully not seen much trouble reported the last 5-10yrs, but it really doesn't take much for it all to kick off back into full pertrol bomb mode, quite often a simple decision wether a band can march down a street would be enough for days of roits

While there will be a massive majority of decent folk on both sides not really bothered and just wanting peace, there will still be knucle draggers on both sides just looking for an excuse (if there not too busy selling drugs too each other)

U only have to walk around Glasgow on an old firm day to see the ammount of proper pure hatred between the 2 sides/religions still exists and plenty get the ferry over from across the irish sea (and its not just a bit of banter/rivalry)

 

I don't imagine the south will bother too much about the voters from the north voting, at moment most in NI will vote purely on religion, so there won't be enough prod's to really alter much voting wise.

I would guess an awful lot would prefer to move to mainland  anyway (esp west coast scotland, as it already has plenty of secterian bigotry so they feel at home) rather than live under 'irish' rule.

So u could see an influx of tens of thousands from NI 'immigrating' across the water

 

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10 minutes ago, scotslad said:

A lot of sense above, but sadly i doubt it would ever really work. The unionists would never allow it too.

While holyrood is a complete joke, stormont is even worse, they really couldnae organise a bevvy up in a brewery, 1 side will just vote against the other no matter how good the idea is for the people

 

But i think NI/Eire is quite a strange place both politically and religousily with hundreds of years of mistrust, intorlerance and in some cases hatred.

It was only relatively recently that some either catholics/prodastants simply could walk in some parts of the city which were walled off.

I dunno if it truely is totally safe for them yet in the wrong part of town?

Have to admit thankfully not seen much trouble reported the last 5-10yrs, but it really doesn't take much for it all to kick off back into full pertrol bomb mode, quite often a simple decision wether a band can march down a street would be enough for days of roits

While there will be a massive majority of decent folk on both sides not really bothered and just wanting peace, there will still be knucle draggers on both sides just looking for an excuse (if there not too busy selling drugs too each other)

U only have to walk around Glasgow on an old firm day to see the ammount of proper pure hatred between the 2 sides/religions still exists and plenty get the ferry over from across the irish sea (and its not just a bit of banter/rivalry)

 

I don't imagine the south will bother too much about the voters from the north voting, at moment most in NI will vote purely on religion, so there won't be enough prod's to really alter much voting wise.

I would guess an awful lot would prefer to move to mainland  anyway (esp west coast scotland, as it already has plenty of secterian bigotry so they feel at home) rather than live under 'irish' rule.

So u could see an influx of tens of thousands from NI 'immigrating' across the water

 

Unless a united Ireland came about trough consent by all sides, (something that will never happen ) it would be a disaster financially  politically for all concerned, a united Ireland sounds good but practically it would never work.   

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24 minutes ago, scotslad said:

A lot of sense above, but sadly i doubt it would ever really work. The unionists would never allow it too.

While holyrood is a complete joke, stormont is even worse, they really couldnae organise a bevvy up in a brewery, 1 side will just vote against the other no matter how good the idea is for the people

 

But i think NI/Eire is quite a strange place both politically and religousily with hundreds of years of mistrust, intorlerance and in some cases hatred.

It was only relatively recently that some either catholics/prodastants simply could walk in some parts of the city which were walled off.

I dunno if it truely is totally safe for them yet in the wrong part of town?

Have to admit thankfully not seen much trouble reported the last 5-10yrs, but it really doesn't take much for it all to kick off back into full pertrol bomb mode, quite often a simple decision wether a band can march down a street would be enough for days of roits

While there will be a massive majority of decent folk on both sides not really bothered and just wanting peace, there will still be knucle draggers on both sides just looking for an excuse (if there not too busy selling drugs too each other)

U only have to walk around Glasgow on an old firm day to see the ammount of proper pure hatred between the 2 sides/religions still exists and plenty get the ferry over from across the irish sea (and its not just a bit of banter/rivalry)

 

I don't imagine the south will bother too much about the voters from the north voting, at moment most in NI will vote purely on religion, so there won't be enough prod's to really alter much voting wise.

I would guess an awful lot would prefer to move to mainland  anyway (esp west coast scotland, as it already has plenty of secterian bigotry so they feel at home) rather than live under 'irish' rule.

So u could see an influx of tens of thousands from NI 'immigrating' across the water

 

As an outsider i have found both sides incredibly pleasant and welcoming, whilst professionally I have not perceived any difference in meaningless violence between the sides compared to sporadic violence in similar places i have worked in on the mainland. What i do often see though is the results of the law being disregarded as an option, with disputes settled with prearranged beatings. At first I found this distasteful, but after close to two years here I have yet to see someone who had a significant beating who either wasnt a complete scrote, or didnt admit they had been a bad boy. Refreshingly I also see next to no heroin related problems (but not infrequently i see people who clearly used to use heroin but have now lost their knees and given it up). This system seems to provide people with much more faith that justice is applied.

Recently a colleagues car was stolen from work by a patients relative who managed to knick their car keys from their handbag in an outpatient clinic, they were then caught on cctv in the car park making a bid for freedom. 18 hours later the miscreant was shot in both legs (joyriders here tend to be shot in the ankles so they cant easily use pedals again) whilst the same case on the mainland would take months to settle and likely nobody involved would hear the outcome. This cant be defended as a system, the rule of law has to be applied transparently and thoroughly, but I can absolutely see why the locals are so attached to it.

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3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Other EU states have country's not in the EU that border them with no hard border and is a non issue

Which countries are these? Just curious, because I can't think of any, other than countries that are within the EEA, which by definition puts them inside the single market..

Edited by Retsdon
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2 hours ago, Wb123 said:

As an outsider i have found both sides incredibly pleasant and welcoming, whilst professionally I have not perceived any difference in meaningless violence between the sides compared to sporadic violence in similar places i have worked in on the mainland. What i do often see though is the results of the law being disregarded as an option, with disputes settled with prearranged beatings. At first I found this distasteful, but after close to two years here I have yet to see someone who had a significant beating who either wasnt a complete scrote, or didnt admit they had been a bad boy. Refreshingly I also see next to no heroin related problems (but not infrequently i see people who clearly used to use heroin but have now lost their knees and given it up). This system seems to provide people with much more faith that justice is applied.

Recently a colleagues car was stolen from work by a patients relative who managed to knick their car keys from their handbag in an outpatient clinic, they were then caught on cctv in the car park making a bid for freedom. 18 hours later the miscreant was shot in both legs (joyriders here tend to be shot in the ankles so they cant easily use pedals again) whilst the same case on the mainland would take months to settle and likely nobody involved would hear the outcome. This cant be defended as a system, the rule of law has to be applied transparently and thoroughly, but I can absolutely see why the locals are so attached to it.

That is a job for the police, not scum that set themselves up as judge jury and executioner. Most law abiding people in the province do not support these type of punishment attacks. 

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On 05/05/2018 at 12:18, Rewulf said:

The housing shortage is a frightening backlash of uncontrolled immigration.
The other side of the issue is birth rate among many non EU migrants being much higher, and not being taken into consideration when it comes to future housing issues.

The house builders are taking the maximum urine when it comes to green belt grabs, they know where the money is at ,and are holding the government to ransom over it.
The government asks for 'affordable housing' in brown belt  areas, the builders put up 4 bedroom detached 'unaffordable' houses in green belt.
Not a solution.

As far as NI goes, its about time the people had a say in the matter , rather than heads of state jockeying for position over it.
They are there to serve, for the good of the people , not themselves.

This is not true. The reason for the shortage of houses is largely due to the change in household formation (More separated families, people living longer), pricing structure and green belt policy. 

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3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU, but have soft borders with Sweden, Germany, Italy, Austria, Leichtenstein and France.

But as I said, they're both in the EEA. And the borders are not entirely soft.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@46.1477372,6.0953784,3a,75y,189.35h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCyJwRP6baSiB6EqNh5Xw_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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14 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Either way, it shows it is far from impossible, it is simply being made into a huge issue due to the EU trying to cause one, I think the UKs position should be exactly as it is, there will be no hard border with Ireland, if Ireland decides to put one in (or the uk for that matter, although personaly id disagree with that) then that's for them to decide, but it has nothing to do with the EU.

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No-one knows what the actual border enforcement would or not. The EU are just stirring it and, sadly, some have jumped on the bandwagon. Given the history of Ireland, they are putting money before people's lives. No real surprise, from the pigs in the trough.

I find it hard to credit that with all the permutations of Brexit, they have chosen a small aspect and tried to undermine the democratic will of the UK.

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

if Ireland decides to put one in (or the uk for that matter, although personaly id disagree with that) then that's for them to decide, but it has nothing to do with the EU.

Exactly, let Ireland worry about their side and let us worry about our side. I don't see the EU's problem.

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

it shows it is far from impossible

Of course it's not impossible. There's nothing to prevent the UK from becoming a member of EFTA which would pretty much solve the Irish issue immediately.  But apparently that's unacceptable to the government or to hard-core Brexiters - although why that should be the case is strange, because in reality there doesn't seem to be much of a viable  alternative. When we leave the EU, who are our future trading partners? The whole world is pretty much carved up into trading blocs.....

 https://www.google.com.sa/search?q=world+trade+blocs&safe=strict&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=ivmn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi499m2lfTaAhUJ1xQKHVHYDB0Q_AUIESgB&biw=1024&bih=768#imgrc=b9M1myJW7sKX3M:

...so which one are we going to join if not the European one? It's going to be a very cold, hard world without any kind of economic allies or partners at all.

 

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2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Of course it's not impossible. There's nothing to prevent the UK from becoming a member of EFTA which would pretty much solve the Irish issue immediately.  But apparently that's unacceptable to the government or to hard-core Brexiters - although why that should be the case is strange, because in reality there doesn't seem to be much of a viable  alternative. When we leave the EU, who are our future trading partners? The whole world is pretty much carved up into trading blocs.....

 https://www.google.com.sa/search?q=world+trade+blocs&safe=strict&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=ivmn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi499m2lfTaAhUJ1xQKHVHYDB0Q_AUIESgB&biw=1024&bih=768#imgrc=b9M1myJW7sKX3M:

...so which one are we going to join if not the European one? It's going to be a very cold, hard world without any kind of economic allies or partners at all.

 

We have 'taken back control' and unfortunately that seems to translate as telling the European free trade area and the associated benefits and obligations to get stuffed as we don't want them any more in any way shape or form no matter what the cost.

 

 

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