Lincolnshire police and medical records

[Guest stevo]

Thought I would start a new thread for discussion regarding Lincolnshire police and there new  

“no medical report no ticket “ approach.

A little more information on there new policy 

 

 

 

Medical records checks

We are changing the way we respond to the medical declaration you make on a Firearm or Shotgun Licensing application.

You will still complete the form as normal, ensuring you have made the correct declaration and indicate whether you have ever been diagnosed with a relevant medical condition (Home Office Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law April 2016 Para 12.26 – 12.28)

We will continue to follow the latest Home Guidance and write to your GP to inform them that you are applying to be a certificate holder.

We will not issue any certificates until your GP has responded to us and confirmed the medical declaration that you as the applicant have made. This process comes into immediate effect for any new grant applications and from 1 August 2018 for renewals.

 

We have introduced this measure as a result of the changes introduced by the Home Office in April 2016.  These changes resulted in better communication between Firearms Licensing and GPs and they revealed that some certificate holders have been untruthful in making false declarations about medical conditions.

This is obviously an offence, but it is also a breach of trust, and foolish. It has resulted in the immediate refusal or revocation of certificates. It is also unnecessary as the existence of a medical condition is not an automatic bar to the holding a firearms or shotgun certificate.

The majority of individuals who lost their certificates through dishonesty would have been issued with a certificate if they had been truthful. Visiting your GP and having a condition treated, with medication is a mature and sensible step, acting responsibly along with the severity of the condition will, be taken into account by the decision makers.

We have many shooters who have or have had medical conditions, and who still continue to shoot. We will continue to work with shooters and doctors to allow this to continue.

We will now ensure that the medical information that you provide to us is verified by your GP to help check that all you are safe to be entrusted with a gun. We are hopeful this measure will protect the public, particularly members of our shooting community.

We have hopeful that we are introducing a simple and easily understood process for you to follow and we are optimistic it will speed up the application process.

Some GPs will charge for verifying your medical information, but the decision to charge is a matter for your GP. Shooters were told the information was to be provided for free but GPs were not consulted and GPs are now imposing varying charges across England and Wales.

We are aware of the shooters concerns regarding inconsistent fee levels and we have been working closely with the Lincolnshire Local Medical Committee. We have asked that if a surgery is charging a fee, that the fee charged be considered reasonable and a level of consistency be applied across the whole of our county.

The process that we have developed with the Lincolnshire Local Medical Committee is as follows:

Complete your application as normal and ensure you have correctly filled in the medical declaration with regards to the relevant conditions listed.

On sending in your application, contact your GP surgery to ensure they will release the medical information to verify your declaration. Some surgeries will charge for the release of this information.

We will contact the GP surgery to confirm your medical information, and if all ties up, your application can progress. 

Should your surgery be able to produce the medical information immediately you attend then you can send this to Firearms Licensing and we will contact your GP to confirm the content.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by stevo

[Scully]

And what has been, or will be, your response to your licensing authority?

[Guest stevo]

I have only just seen this myself , I have a multitude of questions I would like to be answered in a little more detail, 

but at least it gives you an idea of what your be facing soon enough . 

[McSpredder]

“Shooters were told the information was to be provided for free but GPs were not consulted…..”   Has this part of the new police policy been quoted correctly?

 

Everything I have read to date from the shooting organisations indicates that GPs were represented by their own trade union, the BMA, at all stages of the consultation process.    Should I assume that somebody (either shooting organisations or police) has been deliberately issuing false information?

[Scully]

10 hours ago, stevo said:

I have only just seen this myself , I have a multitude of questions I would like to be answered in a little more detail, 

but at least it gives you an idea of what your be facing soon enough . 

It’s more than four years to my next renewal; not that that means I’m sure it’ll be sorted by then, but it’s not something of concern to me anyhow as someone who has to declare a past medical condition. It wasn’t even mentioned at last renewal and I didn’t have to pay anything, but if it’s an issue at the next one I’ll just pay.

My major concern is the ineptitude if our so called representatives. I’m seriously considering just taking out insurance only; there is absolutely nothing of benefit to me by joining an organisation. 

I may, admittedly quite naively, many moons ago, have been under the impression that belonging to a representative body was the right and proper thing to do as it made a difference, but that illusion faded a long time ago. 

[Tadorna]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

It’s more than four years to my next renewal; not that that means I’m sure it’ll be sorted by then, but it’s not something of concern to me anyhow as someone who has to declare a past medical condition. It wasn’t even mentioned at last renewal and I didn’t have to pay anything, but if it’s an issue at the next one I’ll just pay.

My major concern is the ineptitude if our so called representatives. I’m seriously considering just taking out insurance only; there is absolutely nothing of benefit to me by joining an organisation. 

I may, admittedly quite naively, many moons ago, have been under the impression that belonging to a representative body was the right and proper thing to do as it made a difference, but that illusion faded a long time ago. 

Ditto. I am a BASC member by default through a wildfowling club so cannot change that. I have cancelled all others, NGO etc. Wish the club would dis-affiliate from BASC too

[Guest stevo]

Apart from all the obvious questions that have been bugging us for some time now. I’m quite interested to know more about this

“   some certificate holders have been untruthful in making false declarations about medical conditions.

This is obviously an offence, but it is also a breach of trust, and foolish. It has resulted in the immediate refusal or revocation of certificates. It is also unnecessary as the existence of a medical condition is not an automatic bar to the holding a firearms or shotgun certificate 

The majority of individuals who lost their certificates through dishonesty would have been issued with a certificate if they had been truthful. ”

This as far as I’m aware was never a given as a reason for there new stance. 

I would like to some some figures surporting these  claims. 

Looks like a chat with mr jones is on the cards. 

As long as he is not to busy of course ??

Edited May 22, 2018 by stevo

[Salopian]

It certainly would be very interesting to know how many applicants have made false declarations, how the Police found out , how many that had their licences revoked , and were BASC informed and have they represented their membership in this matter ?

Or to justify this obvious obstructive procedure instigated by Lincolnshire C.C. are they not making the rules up as they go along ? Why doesn't , or have BASC actually seriously debated this and what has their Barrister got to say about all of this ? After all they have engaged a Barrister and presumably will be paying him, so is it not time this whole fiasco was sorted out , and the Chief Constable retired due to stress with the usual massive payout.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, Salopian said:

It certainly would be very interesting to know how many applicants have made false declarations, how the Police found out , how many that had their licences revoked , and were BASC informed and have they represented their membership in this matter ?

Or to justify this obvious obstructive procedure instigated by Lincolnshire C.C. are they not making the rules up as they go along ? Why doesn't , or have BASC actually seriously debated this and what has their Barrister got to say about all of this ? After all they have engaged a Barrister and presumably will be paying him, so is it not time this whole fiasco was sorted out , and the Chief Constable retired due to stress with the usual massive payout.

Don't hold your breath!

[wymberley]

7 minutes ago, Salopian said:

It certainly would be very interesting to know how many applicants have made false declarations, how the Police found out , how many that had their licences revoked , and were BASC informed and have they represented their membership in this matter ?

Or to justify this obvious obstructive procedure instigated by Lincolnshire C.C. are they not making the rules up as they go along ? Why doesn't , or have BASC actually seriously debated this and what has their Barrister got to say about all of this ? After all they have engaged a Barrister and presumably will be paying him, so is it not time this whole fiasco was sorted out , and the Chief Constable retired due to stress with the usual massive payout.

If I were he, that would suit me nicely.

But it's not really fair and I think that he should be given a choice and either be able to resign without a pension or gratuity or face a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice.

Naturally, though, see the post above this.

[Farmboy91]

I spoke to a basc rep at the game and Country fair in Euston a couple weeks back, I raised this with him and he's response was all the information the doctors hold you can obtain yourself by contacting them, im sure he said it was something like a £10 but they HAVE to give it too you. 

[Piebob]

19 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

I spoke to a basc rep at the game and Country fair in Euston a couple weeks back, I raised this with him and he's response was all the information the doctors hold you can obtain yourself by contacting them, im sure he said it was something like a £10 but they HAVE to give it too you. 

........which may be fine for the example from the OP, but doesn't get the "marker" onto your medical records which is being demanded by Police Scotland.

Scanned Document.pdf

[sportsbob]

36 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

I spoke to a basc rep at the game and Country fair in Euston a couple weeks back, I raised this with him and he's response was all the information the doctors hold you can obtain yourself by contacting them, im sure he said it was something like a £10 but they HAVE to give it too you. 

I am just doing that for a totally different reason and mine are £50.

[Farmboy91]

22 minutes ago, Piebob said:

........which may be fine for the example from the OP, but doesn't get the "marker" onto your medical records which is being demanded by Police Scotland.

Scanned Document.pdf

 

4 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

I am just doing that for a totally different reason and mine are £50.

Only going on what he told me, it doesn't make alot of difference really does it, one way or another we'll all be stung or pushed into a position where its hon a be harder and harder for the law abiding to own a legal firearm. 

Death by a thousand cuts and all that. 

[panoma1]

2 hours ago, Salopian said:

It certainly would be very interesting to know how many applicants have made false declarations, how the Police found out , how many that had their licences revoked , and were BASC informed and have they represented their membership in this matter ?

Or to justify this obvious obstructive procedure instigated by Lincolnshire C.C. are they not making the rules up as they go along ? Why doesn't , or have BASC actually seriously debated this and what has their Barrister got to say about all of this ? After all they have engaged a Barrister and presumably will be paying him, so is it not time this whole fiasco was sorted out , and the Chief Constable retired due to stress with the usual massive payout.

You can find out by submitting a freedom of information request to Lincolnshire police! Or BASC could? 

 

[phaedra1106]

1 hour ago, sportsbob said:

I am just doing that for a totally different reason and mine are £50.

I would have a word, under the GDPR from May 25th your records should be available to you free of charge, unless there's a massive amount of them!

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/ethics/confidentiality-and-health-records/gps-as-data-controllers

See the box marked "Key Changes Under GDPR"

 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by phaedra1106

[Salopian]

This is a brilliant debate , here we all are voicing our opinions and all the options in good faith .

Lincolnshire Chief Constable is making it up as he goes along without any control or consideration for what is really going on around him .

And the 'Voice of Shooting ' is silent.

[sportsbob]

1 hour ago, phaedra1106 said:

I would have a word, under the GDPR from May 25th your records should be available to you free of charge, unless there's a massive amount of them!

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/ethics/confidentiality-and-health-records/gps-as-data-controllers

See the box marked "Key Changes Under GDPR"

 

 

Thanks for that I have had a look and it says  "Practices will not be able to charge patients for access to medical records (save in exceptional circumstances)."

They have charged me £10 to access the records and £40 to provide me with a printed copy so I guess the £10 may be the bit they wont be allowed to charge from now on.

They should have done this within 21 days according to the current guidelines and not more than 40 days but mine has taken well over 60 days. This is a medical practice with more admin staff than Doctors so I guess they have to get the wages from somewhere.

[panoma1]

Can you not access the records yourself, after all they are your records! Can a patient be refused a copy of "their own" medical records if they refuse to pay? It seems under GDPR 2018, after 25th May.........you can and they can't?? Lol!

Seems highly questionable ethically, that GP's have been withholding patients own records, and holding said records, for ransom? And/or demanding money off patients with menaces! Aided and abetted it appears, by Lincolnshire police!

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The Police/Licensing Team do not want your Medical Records, they want a Doctor to state there is no reason to refuse you a SGC/FAC and pass the buck to the Doctors!

[JohnfromUK]

I quote from my Doctors letter in which "the Police have asked for factual details of your medical history"  it goes on  "Please be advised that the Police are not asking your GP to advise whether or not a certificate should be issued, this responsibility rests entirely with the Police."

 

[Gordon R]

It is not a "Freedom of Information Request" - it is a Subject Access Request under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

[panoma1]

18 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

It is not a "Freedom of Information Request" - it is a Subject Access Request under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

Are you sure? I understood you make a 'Freedom of Information' request to a public body for information! I was suggesting making a FOI request from the Police... surely the SAR is for 'access' to the 'subjects, (your) 'records'

[Gordon R]

panoma 1 - I was answering your second post on the personal records.

FOI would cover the first post on how many were found to be incorrect. If you can obtain that information, I will plait sawdust.

[Madness]

Just renewed mine with Lincs Police, both shotgun and firearms. Cost me £30 for the Doctors, and with the new online application system eventually negotiated I had my visit 3 weeks after my application went in, the Docs sent me a letter requesting payment 2 days before to which I went straight in and paid and my new certificates were delivered a week after my visit..........in all exactly 4 weeks from date of application and 2 months before my old certificates expire.

Well done to Lincs Firearms licensing dept for sorting their problems out and getting back on track