Retsdon Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Has anyone read it? I'm about halfway through, and it's a very saddening book. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strange-Death-Europe-Immigration-Identity/dp/1472942248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527000622&sr=8-1&keywords=the+strange+death+of+europe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Read the synopsis and couldn't be bothered to do more research. Sounds like an amateur selling his book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted May 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: Read the synopsis and couldn't be bothered to do more research. Sounds like an amateur selling his book. From 635 Amazon written reviews, it gets a 4.8 from 5 stars average. In comparison, Tolstoy's War and Peace reviewers give a 4.3, and the first Harry Potter book gets 4.8. Not suggesting that Craig Murray's book is a classic, but the people who've actually read it quite obviously don't share your opinion. But hey, ho.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Douglas, a very interesting man , speaks the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Retsdon - save your patronising for another day or for someone who cares about you and Amazon reviewers. I wouldn't imagine that reviews might be fiddled. Rick Rolling springs to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Gordon So its ‘fine’ for you to slate anything ‘EU’ and yet others are not allowed to air their views — bit of a double standard me thinks and frankly a rather patronising response. Its probably why most now refrain from posting any replies to and EU thread or roll our eyes whenever it’s mentioned on here...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 I did not say anything about others views until someone started making sarcy remarks in italics. Nor did I have a pop at the EU. I also find your remarks odd and very patronising. You have mastered double standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, Gordon R said: Read the synopsis and couldn't be bothered to do more research. Sounds like an amateur selling his book. Good grief! Graham Murray is a very well known political journalist, intellectual commentator and researcher, associate editor of The Spectator. He wrote his first book at Oxford, aged just 19, to critical acclaim. I have lost count of how many he has written in the decades since then, but his work has won several literary prizes. If you want to get slightly better informed before jumping to any more conclusions, have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Murray_(author) Edited May 23, 2018 by stagboy typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 I am entitled to my own opinion, contrary to the belief of some. I don't rightly care who he is or what his background is. The title of the book is a real turn off for me. He could have written 1000 books - it doesn't mean that everyone has to like book 1001. Quote from one who has read the book:- Quote Murray writes well, but readers should look beyond his talents as a polemicist. This book is nothing more than a rehashing of longstanding Islamophobic talking points dressed up for polite company. For all of his moderate pretensions, readers should never forget that this is the author who in a 2006 speech in the Netherlands declared: "Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition" and then refused to repudiate that statement for 5 long years before he came under political pressure to do so. Those are Murray's true colors. And his supposed longing for a peaceful, secular Europe where liberal democracy thrives is unconvincing given that he gives a pass to extremist nativist politicians, whose vision for Europe is anything but liberal. Murray's thesis would be far more convincing if he recognized that the Front National and the AfD pose as much, if not more, of a threat to liberal democracy in Europe than Muslims with jihadi sympathies. Some absolutely intolerant people about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AULD YIN Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 26 minutes ago, Gordon R said: I Some absolutely intolerant people about. Best laugh i have had for weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Gordon R said: The title of the book is a real turn off for me It's a play on the title of a famous book by George Dangerfield, published in 1935, called The Strange Death of Liberal England, which charted the demise of the old Liberal (or Whig|) party in the period before WW1. Murray is attempting to make a comparison. The generic title is still in use today - see: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/14/strange-death-labour-britain-liberal-britain But hey, let's not get too erudite: I mean, you're entitled to your opinion... or rather, an opinion borrowed from "one who has read the book." Edited May 23, 2018 by stagboy simplifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 stagboy - perhaps when you learn to read you might be better informed. PS - erudite is not a word I would associate with you - I didn't borrow that opinion either. I am entitled to my opinion. I will be interested to see just how many more "tolerant" people jump on your bandwagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gordon R said: I am entitled to my opinion. Ah, the anguished cry of the Pooterish down the ages... Edited May 23, 2018 by stagboy simplifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Which Europe exactly are we talking about? About the only time in the past 2000 years has it had any semblance of stability was under Roman rule. Then only because they would kill you and your entire community if you dared to defy them, burn your villages and take your children as slaves. Since then Europe has been a continuous war zone, apart from the hundred years war, Napoleon, The Ottomans and the Hapsburgs, we have had The Goths, The Vandals, The Huns, The Moors, 1914, and of course the Nazis. That's not taking into account the Vikings or the Moors and thousands of local wars like the Franco Prussian war. Failing that we could chuck in the odd Revolution, Civil War or rebellion. Just over 70 years ago Germany was dropping bombs on London, killing people in gas chambers and shooting Norweigian school teachers. Such nice people really, just a bit misunderstood. Oh yes Europe is a wonderful place, so friendly, you can just feel the love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 All I can say is, anyone who goes out of their way to research, buy and then read this book is obviously going to agree with it fully... anyone who doesn’t agree with it isn’t going to buy it in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: All I can say is, anyone who goes out of their way to research, buy and then read this book is obviously going to agree with it fully... anyone who doesn’t agree with it isn’t going to buy it in the first place. That's true of the whole debate over Europe. It seems strange to me that some people can believe something so strongly and so passionately while other, (seemingly intelligent) people disagree with equal passion. Its the same with Corbyn, to me he is the biggest fraud and conman ever to reach high office. (and I have met him he used to be my MP) even Blair pales into second place. Yet people believe him and believe in him. To me is incomprehensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Quote All I can say is, anyone who goes out of their way to research, buy and then read this book is obviously going to agree with it fully... anyone who doesn’t agree with it isn’t going to buy it in the first place. Exactly. Quote Ah, the anguished cry of the Pooterish down the ages... I think the village idiot has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Gordon R said: I think the village idiot has spoken. An insult to those with learning disabilities. Wow. Edited May 23, 2018 by stagboy dealing with a Pooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted May 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: All I can say is, anyone who goes out of their way to research, buy and then read this book is obviously going to agree with it fully... I was recommended to read the book by a colleague at work so I downloaded it on Kindle and saved it for holiday time. As for agreeing with it fully, I haven't come to his conclusions yet, so for me at least I'll hold off saying that I agree with everything he has to say. However, I don't think anyone can deny that the massive demographic change undergone in much of Western Europe over the last three decades - and which is continuing at an ever increasing rate - has at least the potential to alter forever the political, social and cultural characteristics of the region. Some people might argue that this is a disaster, others that it doesn't matter, others might even say that it's a good thing. I used the word 'saddening' because for me it is. I'm nostalgic for the days when London was unmistakably English, Paris was French, and Amsterdam Dutch. And for me at least, when in the 2011 census only minority of Londoners ticked boxes to classify themselves as white and British, it's evident that the London I knew as a student 40 years ago no longer exists. As I say, for me this change is 'saddening'. I never meant to start an argument with anyone, and I never thought such a mild adjective would be so controversial! Edited May 24, 2018 by Retsdon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 stagboy - I will draw a line under this as you are out of your depth. The irony of what you have posted will undoubtedly be lost on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stagboy Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 Touchy little fella, ain't ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 6 hours ago, Retsdon said: However, I don't think anyone can deny that the massive demographic change undergone in much of Western Europe over the last three decades - and which is continuing at an ever increasing rate - has at least the potential to alter forever the political, social and cultural characteristics of the region. Some people might argue that this is a disaster, I dont believe I need a book to tell me whats happening across the UK and Western Europe, if it gave a different theory of WHY its happening, other than 'refugees' or 'labour shortage' then I might be interested. But then I have eyes and I can see that most of them are not refugees and a lot of the EU 'workers' take home more benefits than wages earned, so the whole tax benefit to the country is a big steaming pile of BS. Why are we doing it to ourselves? Its already altered the political characteristics, we have a vitriolic left who leap at the chance to defend any attempt to curtail immigration, staunchly defend any so called 'infringement of migrant rights' and have created a PC culture ,that genuinely saddens me. Social and cultural characteristics, whilst diversity is not a crime, comes with a ghetto culture that is very apparent at the moment, racist grooming and inner city knife crime are a direct result of this new cultural diversity, but no one dare comment on its true causes, lest they be dragged over the coals as a racist, or at the very least (shock horror) be labelled a far righter ! A far lefter is fine though (up the workers !) Whether you think it a disaster or not ,really depends on who and where you are, if you live in a nice 'white' village where there are no illegals and no crime, its very easy to think multiculturalism is a good thing. If you are originally from Central Africa or Iraq, and have set up home on a London council estate, your life is far better than it was, even if you are surrounded by gang culture and crime. If though you were born and bred on that same council estate, and in the last 20 years seen that area flooded with migrants and descended into a hell hole of crime and fear, then perhaps you have a different opinion ? Lets get this straight, there is nothing wrong with immigration, as long as its controlled. You open those doors and let everyone and anyone in, they are going to keep coming until there is no more room, or your country has become so bad, that they dont want to come anymore, as its better where they were born. When it becomes near impossible to voice these concerns without being branded a racist or nazi, then you have a serious problem, and free speech has become dangerously eroded. Again ,I dont need to KNOW whats happened, I can see it unfold before me. Im more interested in what we can DO about it, before its too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 The answer is simple, they come because they can. People will always want a better life, you would do the same. Its the most natural human desire in the world to want to improve your situation. The trouble is they can't all come, most politicians are frozen like a rabbit in the headlights because they can't say publically what they are thinking privately. So they say nothing and do nothing, hoping we won't notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, Vince Green said: The answer is simple, they come because they can. People will always want a better life, you would do the same. Its the most natural human desire in the world to want to improve your situation. The trouble is they can't all come, most politicians are frozen like a rabbit in the headlights because they can't say publically what they are thinking privately. So they say nothing and do nothing, hoping we won't notice. Without a doubt, and we let them. If I try moving to a 'better' country, there is every chance I will not be allowed to do so. And thats me ,with far more to offer that country than them, a strange conundrum. They turn up with no passport, no skills, a dodgy story, no language skills and every prospect of costing the state a good deal of tax payers money, and the red carpet gets rolled out. The problem is not the migrants, its US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yod dropper Posted May 24, 2018 Report Share Posted May 24, 2018 On 22/05/2018 at 15:54, Retsdon said: Has anyone read it? Got it but not started it yet. I have recently finished Rita Chin's 'The Crisis if Multiculturalism in Europe: A History', some might be disappointed by the content as it appeared rooted in non-partisan historical fact with little opinion or interpretation. If you ever come across any of the work by Theodore Dalrymple you may enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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