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ditchman
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15 minutes ago, buze said:

As much as I liked the 80s F1s. trying to compare the drivers of back then and now is ridiculous. The level of physical needed by the modern drivers *just to get into the frigging car* is amazing. I'm sure it was more 'manly' to drive back then, but the modern drivers get more out of their machine, for a longer time. There are WAY more extremely talented drivers on the front porch than there used to be, and you just can't drive along for 10 years being 'average' (like Button and a few others did) -- these days you seems to get 1/2 season and you're out.

The last 'party all night' driver is probably Raikonnen -- and I'm pretty sure he had to calm that down seriously in the last few years. Once he's gone, it'll just be super hungry kids like we already see at the back of the grid. Rearing to go, but ready to burnout quickly. I wonder if for example, Verstappen is going to have that burnout sooner than later.

agree with what you say...:yes:...dont want to ..but have to..

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33 minutes ago, buze said:

As much as I liked the 80s F1s. trying to compare the drivers of back then and now is ridiculous. The level of physical needed by the modern drivers *just to get into the frigging car* is amazing. I'm sure it was more 'manly' to drive back then, but the modern drivers get more out of their machine, for a longer time. There are WAY more extremely talented drivers on the front porch than there used to be, and you just can't drive along for 10 years being 'average' (like Button and a few others did) -- these days you seems to get 1/2 season and you're out.

The last 'party all night' driver is probably Raikonnen -- and I'm pretty sure he had to calm that down seriously in the last few years. Once he's gone, it'll just be super hungry kids like we already see at the back of the grid. Rearing to go, but ready to burnout quickly. I wonder if for example, Verstappen is going to have that burnout sooner than later.

How can you say Button was an average driver?

Never really a competitive car till the Brawn.

First driver to beat Hamilton over a whole season in an equal car (Alonso couldn't)

I will reluctantly agree he was never one of the greats but to call him average is a great disservice 

:shaun:

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7 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

How can you say Button was an average driver?

Never really a competitive car till the Brawn.

First driver to beat Hamilton over a whole season in an equal car (Alonso couldn't)

I will reluctantly agree he was never one of the greats but to call him average is a great disservice 

I'm afraid buze is right, we had this very discussion a couple of years ago here and I dug up some stats which showed he was a good driver but losing to the likes of Schumacher's brov and Fisichella for crying out loud ? ................puts you firmly in the average bracket. His problem was he very rarely won in a 2nd or 3rd best car "from the back", he was smooth, he was fast, he could occasionally race but he couldn't win unless he was in a superb car, never forget he won something like the first 7 races in his Championship year against Barichello (possibly THE best no.2 driver we've had in the modern era) and then suddenly started to just collect points when others caught up, he did drive well but todays game will dispose of his type in a single season. It is a great shame really because I for one don't think we can or should have 20 all capable of winning ! 

8 hours ago, buze said:

As much as I liked the 80s F1s. trying to compare the drivers of back then and now is ridiculous. The level of physical needed by the modern drivers *just to get into the frigging car* is amazing. I'm sure it was more 'manly' to drive back then, but the modern drivers get more out of their machine, for a longer time. There are WAY more extremely talented drivers on the front porch than there used to be, and you just can't drive along for 10 years being 'average' (like Button and a few others did) -- these days you seems to get 1/2 season and you're out.

The last 'party all night' driver is probably Raikonnen -- and I'm pretty sure he had to calm that down seriously in the last few years. Once he's gone, it'll just be super hungry kids like we already see at the back of the grid. Rearing to go, but ready to burnout quickly. I wonder if for example, Verstappen is going to have that burnout sooner than later.

A typically aware and well argued remark. 

FWIW I was never in awe of Raikannon anyway, he was superbly fast very early on but he also believed in his own innate speed to the extent he allowed his fitness and general hunger to lapse which you just haven't been able to do in F1 for over 30 years. 

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10 hours ago, buze said:

As much as I liked the 80s F1s. trying to compare the drivers of back then and now is ridiculous. The level of physical needed by the modern drivers *just to get into the frigging car* is amazing. I'm sure it was more 'manly' to drive back then, but the modern drivers get more out of their machine, for a longer time. There are WAY more extremely talented drivers on the front porch than there used to be, and you just can't drive along for 10 years being 'average' (like Button and a few others did) -- these days you seems to get 1/2 season and you're out.

The last 'party all night' driver is probably Raikonnen -- and I'm pretty sure he had to calm that down seriously in the last few years. Once he's gone, it'll just be super hungry kids like we already see at the back of the grid. Rearing to go, but ready to burnout quickly. I wonder if for example, Verstappen is going to have that burnout sooner than later.

They still fall into the "modern era" period but the productivity ratio in terms of insanely over-paid V actual results is perhaps best represented by the likes of Eddie Irvine,  Jacques Villenueve, Ralf and Jean Alesi; there are many others who made handsome money from unwarranted, long careers such as Trulli but nothing like the absurd scale of those mentioned. 

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17 minutes ago, Hamster said:

They still fall into the "modern era" period but the productivity ratio in terms of insanely over-paid V actual results is perhaps best represented by the likes of Eddie Irvine,  Jacques Villenueve, Ralf and Jean Alesi; there are many others who made handsome money from unwarranted, long careers such as Trulli but nothing like the absurd scale of those mentioned. 

To be fair Irvine never stood a chance, just as Massa/ Barichello never stood a chance at Ferarri, if Schumacher was racing he was allowed to win by Ferarri, everyone else was a number 2 driver.....

And we will have to agree to disagree about Button......

The corporate machine now means we are getting fewer and fewer characters in the sport these days.....Riciardo/Verstappen and to a point Hartley (although I don't think he will be allowed to prosper) have that edge.

When you bring enough money to the team you get a drive, look at Stroll and Sirotkin at Williams, if Williams weren't desperately short of money then neither of the aforementioned would get a look in.

Something needs to change but I don't know what, give them all identical cars with ballast to make sure they all weigh the same would be interesting, then talent would take over.

The only equivalent we have had was Top Gears F1 in a reasonably priced car.

They all used the same car, and when the weather conditions were the same it was Riciardo that triumphed, not as many expected Hamilton.....

The debate will rumble on and on

:shaun:

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1 hour ago, shaun4860 said:

To be fair Irvine never stood a chance, just as Massa/ Barichello never stood a chance at Ferarri, if Schumacher was racing he was allowed to win by Ferarri, everyone else was a number 2 driver.....

And we will have to agree to disagree about Button......

The corporate machine now means we are getting fewer and fewer characters in the sport these days.....Riciardo/Verstappen and to a point Hartley (although I don't think he will be allowed to prosper) have that edge.

When you bring enough money to the team you get a drive, look at Stroll and Sirotkin at Williams, if Williams weren't desperately short of money then neither of the aforementioned would get a look in.

Something needs to change but I don't know what, give them all identical cars with ballast to make sure they all weigh the same would be interesting, then talent would take over.

The only equivalent we have had was Top Gears F1 in a reasonably priced car.

They all used the same car, and when the weather conditions were the same it was Riciardo that triumphed, not as many expected Hamilton.....

The debate will rumble on and on

Yes, the debate will rumble on and on ( i agree with you regarding Button ) and while it does it remains a parade, not a race...mundane and uninteresting. I'm of the opinion that most drivers can do it in the right car; the fact that most are qualifying within tenths or hundredths of each other would seem to support that.

To be there on the grid, behind the scenes with the multitude of sounds and smells must be the stuff of a petrol heads wet dream, but to those of us who just want to be entertained and thrilled by a race, it's boring. The electric version is beyond description. 

TT isn't glamorous in the same respect as F1, but it's still everything F1 isn't, even though it's a race against the clock. 

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4 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

To be fair Irvine never stood a chance, just as Massa/ Barichello never stood a chance at Ferarri, if Schumacher was racing he was allowed to win by Ferarri, everyone else was a number 2 driver.....

And we will have to agree to disagree about Button......

The corporate machine now means we are getting fewer and fewer characters in the sport these days.....Riciardo/Verstappen and to a point Hartley (although I don't think he will be allowed to prosper) have that edge.

When you bring enough money to the team you get a drive, look at Stroll and Sirotkin at Williams, if Williams weren't desperately short of money then neither of the aforementioned would get a look in.

Something needs to change but I don't know what, give them all identical cars with ballast to make sure they all weigh the same would be interesting, then talent would take over.

The only equivalent we have had was Top Gears F1 in a reasonably priced car.

They all used the same car, and when the weather conditions were the same it was Riciardo that triumphed, not as many expected Hamilton.....

The debate will rumble on and on

Nothing needs to change, it's F1 and few inside the sport have ever pretended it is a fair and straight contest between one driver's "speed" against the other. The whole point about it is the fact that you need good designers to begin with, you then need to get the right people in every single domain within the Team. This is why there's a Constructors as well as a Driver's Championship. 

It's a points system so raw speed over one or even half a dozen races doesn't guarantee the title, you need to maximise points every which way because £millions are at stake in prize money, this is why team orders often mean we are denied a bare knuckle race between team mates during the closing stages (or starts), this is why at times lower ranked teams who get supplied with expensive engines have to play politics and second fiddle to the big bosses in other teams. It's not called the Piranha Club for nothing, it's real life played out in miniscule proportions for entertainment, there is for instance a clear though invisible hierarchy before anyone has even turned a wheel and it starts with Ferrari, you can fight against and even win on occasion but you can't change the basic rules. 

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Yes, the debate will rumble on and on ( i agree with you regarding Button ) and while it does it remains a parade, not a race...mundane and uninteresting. I'm of the opinion that most drivers can do it in the right car; the fact that most are qualifying within tenths or hundredths of each other would seem to support that.

To be there on the grid, behind the scenes with the multitude of sounds and smells must be the stuff of a petrol heads wet dream, but to those of us who just want to be entertained and thrilled by a race, it's boring. The electric version is beyond description. 

TT isn't glamorous in the same respect as F1, but it's still everything F1 isn't, even though it's a race against the clock. 

Most drivers can win races in the right car, most can come second or third by bagging points all year in a good car but few can win "the title" even in the right car. This is why Schumacher had priority over every team mate, because he WAS superior in almost every way so he could command that that be written into his contracts (a mistake that has cost Alonso at least 2 more titles). Coulthard is a superb driver by any sensible measure of judgement and he was in the right car several times but never won the title, Villeneuve had to yield to Damon in 1996 because the latter was the better package, he made very hard work of winning in 97 despite being in the clear class car of the year, Barrichello lost the first 7 races to a career driver despite being in the best car, Alesi & Berger couldn't drive Schumacher's Championship winning car for toffee and both soundly lost their way following the switch from Ferrari to Benetton, between 2010 - 2013 Mark Webber was in the best car on the grid and he still failed to win a single title despite being recognised as one of the very best on the circuit at that time. 

Title winners DO have that little bit extra in them, a tenth is a life time in F1 same as there's a world of difference between a 95 and a 91 in Sporting. 

The same phenomenon can be observed on the clay shooting field, yes of course almost any AA/AAA class shot is capable of straighting almost any stand on the circuit no matter how difficult BUT the winners string lots and lots of straights together meaning they fill their boots on the easy ones all the time AND hit most of the rest hence they end up with 95 when the rest of us are arguing about the "silly" or "easy" birds we missed. Then we have dreamers who go on the internet moaning about everfing being too easy these days?

Those tenths come through getting 3 sectors right every time, 2 sectors won't cut it if you're after the title. 

Edited by Hamster
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4 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

Something needs to change but I don't know what, give them all identical cars with ballast to make sure they all weigh the same would be interesting, then talent would take over.

To make the racing more exciting and watchable on the track, more power and narrower cars/tyres would be a start, that or no longer including circuits where overtaking is impossible.

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2 hours ago, Hamster said:

 

Most drivers can win races in the right car, most can come second or third by bagging points all year in a good car but few can win "the title" even in the right car. This is why Schumacher had priority over every team mate, because he WAS superior in almost every way so he could command that that be written into his contracts (a mistake that has cost Alonso at least 2 more titles). Coulthard is a superb driver by any sensible measure of judgement and he was in the right car several times but never won the title, Villeneuve had to yield to Damon in 1996 because the latter was the better package, he made very hard work of winning in 97 despite being in the clear class car of the year, Barrichello lost the first 7 races to a career driver despite being in the best car, Alesi & Berger couldn't drive Schumacher's Championship winning car for toffee and both soundly lost their way following the switch from Ferrari to Benetton, between 2010 - 2013 Mark Webber was in the best car on the grid and he still failed to win a single title despite being recognised as one of the very best on the circuit at that time. 

Title winners DO have that little bit extra in them, a tenth is a life time in F1 same as there's a world of difference between a 95 and a 91 in Sporting. 

 

Those tenths come through getting 3 sectors right every time, 2 sectors won't cut it if you're after the title. 

But that's more or less what I'm saying, because no driver, no matter how good ( even with that 'bit extra in them' ) can do it in the wrong car. It takes enormous skill, courage, belligerence, great hunger and talent to be a consistently successful driver, and some stand out from the pack, but without the right car they're only going to be competitive, not winners. 

A great car will make a good driver shine, the reverse isn't true. 

 

Edited by Scully
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41 minutes ago, Scully said:

But that's more or less what I'm saying, because no driver, no matter how good ( even with that 'bit extra in them' ) can do it in the wrong car. It takes enormous skill, courage, belligerence, great hunger and talent to be a consistently successful driver, and some stand out from the pack, but without the right car they're only going to be competitive, not winners. 

A great car will make a good driver shine, the reverse isn't true. 

 

?

Yes you need a great car, my point was merely that not all good drivers can make even a great car work but once in a while a good river will get the title in a great car when all the other factors are just right, Button is a fair example as is Damon, as much as I rate him and was a fan I'm not foolish enough to think he'd have won had Senna not died for instance. Nico Rosberg perhaps comes closest to a fantastic driver who deservedly won the title even though his team mate was the better driver, he capitalised on everything and played the points game to perfection, Lewis's DNF's were legitimate assets which others too have used to win titles. 

 

Edited by Hamster
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I think getting rid of the radios might be a start,

couple of races ago Hamilton was asking his team "how fast have I got to drive to win"?

pits telling them their team mate is faster in this corner or that corner,

Drivers in the past knew what they needed to do and didn't need to be told how fast other drivers were cornering, they explored the limits.

Give them the old fashion pit boards to tell them the gaps or when to pit.

We are way past ever returning to them days but it might be a start.

:shaun:

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