Has law and order broken down in this country ?

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, besty57 said:

Maybe putting a stop to the billions we give in so called international aid .would help,

Just a thought,

I don't disagree at all.  However, we have about four possible governments that might happen at the next election (it will almost certainly be one of these, as UKIP are effectively gone);

• Tory majority
• Labour majority
• Tory minority, propped up by DUP
• Labour minority propped up by SNP, possibly LibDems

Add to that mix a mooted, but as yet non existent 'centre left' party backed by Blair, Mandelson, Clegg, Kinnock etc. that might support someone, but would certainly be strong on supporting foreign aid as they always did love giving our money away

I don't believe ANY of those will cut foreign aid, so we , the electorate are a bit 'stuffed' for choice in that area.

[Ollieollie]

The backbone has well and truly gone

[walshie]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

+1

I had an argument with a (female) friend of mine the other day, about a woman who was walking home at 4.30 am and who was raped.
I asked what she was doing walking about at that time.
Angry retort, 'She should be able to do what she wants ,at whatever time !'
I replied that even I have to think twice about doing that, and I have half an inkling how to defend myself.
The simple fact is, the streets are not safe, especially in the middle of the night for anyone.

Your friend is correct in as much as anyone SHOULD be safe walking anywhere at any time, duly protected by our public servants - the police. Sadly, in the real world it's not like that. 

[harkom]

Whatever happened to the "zero tolerance" policeman - I recall that he had a startling effect on crime rates in his area, but then.. later, after he was moved or "retired"....no further momentum in "policing".

[Westley]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

Police numbers have fallen over the last 5 -10 but there are still almost twice as many serving officers as there were around 1970 and also there are about 10 times as many non-uniform staff (whom the police refer to as "civilian" staff. Presumably part of the paramilitary image the police like to cultivate for themselves).

The police began withdrawing the "Bobby on the Beat" in 1963 without consulting the public and from which they evolved themselves into the impersonal and almost totally detached response force we see today. No one over the age of 60 or so can comprehend how anyone would think modern policing methods could possibly be a deterrent to those with criminal intent.

There were 4,500 Officers in Merseyside in 1974, although I can not say what the current figure is, I would bet it is nowhere near that today.  The reason for the Police becoming more mobile in the 70's was the high amount of car crime. Even fitted with his best Nike's, a foot Bobby will not catch up with a stolen vehicle  !  The fact is, unless you have large numbers of foot patrols, the 'Bobby on the Beat' is the most ineffectual resource there is.  The tighter car security systems almost put an end to the 'joyrider' but upped the 'burglary for car keys' incidents.  The "almost totally detached response force" is due mainly to the drastically low numbers of Police. This fact is proved by the number of PCSO's and Specials who have been trained to drive Police vehicles. The term 'civilian staff' is an age old term that went back to when a lot of ex military, were Police Officers and it was a lot more regimented than today.  The 'evolution' from the 'Bobby on the Beat'  to the 'impersonal and almost totally detached force we see today' by your figures,  took some 55 years to achieve !  If there are 'almost twice as many serving Officers as there were in the 70's' they are being kept well hidden,  or maybe,  they have just tripled the number of CID Officers  ?

1 minute ago, harkom said:

Whatever happened to the "zero tolerance" policeman - I recall that he had a startling effect on crime rates in his area, but then.. later, after he was moved or "retired"....no further momentum in "policing".

CCTV and body camera's  ?

[bluesj]

6 minutes ago, Westley said:

There were 4,500 Officers in Merseyside in 1974, although I can not say what the current figure is, I would bet it is nowhere near that today.  The reason for the Police becoming more mobile in the 70's was the high amount of car crime. Even fitted with his best Nike's, a foot Bobby will not catch up with a stolen vehicle  !  The fact is, unless you have large numbers of foot patrols, the 'Bobby on the Beat' is the most ineffectual resource there is.  The tighter car security systems almost put an end to the 'joyrider' but upped the 'burglary for car keys' incidents.  The "almost totally detached response force" is due mainly to the drastically low numbers of Police. This fact is proved by the number of PCSO's and Specials who have been trained to drive Police vehicles. The term 'civilian staff' is an age old term that went back to when a lot of ex military, were Police Officers and it was a lot more regimented than today.  The 'evolution' from the 'Bobby on the Beat'  to the 'impersonal and almost totally detached force we see today' by your figures,  took some 55 years to achieve !  If there are 'almost twice as many serving Officers as there were in the 70's' they are being kept well hidden,  or maybe,  they have just tripled the number of CID Officers  ?

7000

[Westley]

4 minutes ago, bluesj said:

7000

I think you are a little confused. The 7000 that you refer to,  is the total number of people employed by Merseyside Police. A quick phone call has revealed that there is actually less than 3,500 Police Officers, which is WHY so many 'Civvies' are being taught how to drive Police vehicles.  You will know times are bad if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a crime and the 'Officer' attending (if there is one) is wearing an apron and headscarf and carrying a mop and bucket  !

[bluesj]

12 minutes ago, Westley said:

I think you are a little confused. The 7000 that you refer to,  is the total number of people employed by Merseyside Police. A quick phone call has revealed that there is actually less than 3,500 Police Officers, which is WHY so many 'Civvies' are being taught how to drive Police vehicles.  You will know times are bad if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a crime and the 'Officer' attending (if there is one) is wearing an apron and headscarf and carrying a mop and bucket  !

but have the other staff increased to carry out some of the work that police officers would have had to do?

[Scully]

I’m not sure if law and order has broken down, but it may seem like that because police resources are stretched like never before, and while I’m not sure the criminals literally have the freedom of the streets, it certainly seems like it at times.

The police ( or the state ) cannot protect you ( unless you’re a high ranking politician or of the royal household ) and while I don’t see the prospects of criminal behaviour receding anytime soon, I think the time will come when ordinary people start arming themselves somehow, as they grow to realise that if and when the time comes when they need the police, they won’t be there. 

I told my kids this some time ago. 

When ordinary law abiding citizens start breaking the law by arming themselves for their own protection, then society starts to break down. 

I think and hope we’re a long way from that particular scenario.

[Westley]

14 minutes ago, bluesj said:

but have the other staff increased to carry out some of the work that police officers would have had to do?

Probably, but that is not going to increase the numbers of frontline Officers. The 'office' jobs were usually done by Officers nearing retirement, as they have retired they have been replaced by none Police Officers, or not replaced at all. A friend has just retired from the post of FEO, his post is not being replaced by anyone. Obviously the time period for Renewals and Grants has now increased even further. Although there is a greater 'uniformed presence' on the streets, it must be remembered that they have no more powers than you or I and have to call for the 'Police' themselves,  if the wheel comes off. You can rest assured the criminal fraternity will be well aware of this too.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Westley

[Yellow Bear]

55 minutes ago, harkom said:

...no further momentum in "policing"

That is actually part of the problem =Too much "momentum" in affecting policing

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Jaymo said:

There were two on foot patrol this morning making their way into Chapelfield, accompanied by the wailing siren of a Patrol Car attending too

Regarding the claims that all Moped gangs are or foreign decent that absolute BS and you know it, agreed it does seem to be a possible colour lead affair but then if you look at the demographics of London then you will know that certain boroughs are more diverse than others.

A  non British name doesn’t mean your not second or third gen and there are many many ‘white’ gangs too ( oh yes, they do also get reported in the ‘rags’ too) 

We used to go up to Croydon and Streatham in the 80’s and it had it problems then so don’t start spouting off that it’s only one type....

Am I defending the actions of these gangs? God no- nothing gives me greater pleasure than seeing each rider falling off his machine or getting nicked but facts gained from “he says” or your Daily rag isn’t exactly paint8ng the. True picture- or do you really follow like sheep all that you read

I don’t want to enter into the same old arguements, as it’s always the same seven or eight of you on here expressing your slightly warped ( of course in my opinion) views and woe betide anyone should ever try and counter you.

Funny enough I rather like PW but although it’s an ‘off topic’  section I’m beginning to to take a bit of different view of it all.

I wouldn't take it personally Jaymo ,it's not like us warped ones bully you us it?

You have your opinion,I respect that, but on here you are a minority when it comes to these issues,you have to realise other people's experiences have shaped their views,whether you think it right or wrong, nobody wakes up one day and thinks the world's problems lie squarely at the door of the 'foreigners'.

That said , there is a problem with a disproportionate number of criminal migrants, maybe not in the same vein as Vince insinuated, but it's the fear of addressing the issue which riles me particularly.

Of course there is no way of saying how many moped gang bangers are Calais migrants ect, because most of them don't get caught (you have probably heard the police won't pursue them in case they hurt themselves) but you can't disprove it either.

Just try and see the other side of the argument, instead of just seeing bigotry and racism, and then maybe they will see your argument too ?

[jam1e]

7 hours ago, matone said:

If you import 3rd world country occupants ,what else is to be expected...they`ll drag their new found home down to their level I`d suppose.

Sums it up from what i believe... Along with, who would you rob. Someone in shiny new Landrover Sport (I think it was) or a knackered old Astra?

 

[Jaymo]

Rewulf

Fortunately I do see both sides, unfortunately it is a little one sided from others.

( and you know me, never take it personally- thick skinned me)

[Westley]

1 minute ago, jam1e said:

Sums it up from what i believe... Along with, who would you rob. Someone in shiny new Landrover Sport (I think it was) or a knackered old Astra?

 

Problem is, with the shiny new Range Rover, there is more chance of having a gun shoved under your nose  !

[jam1e]

Just now, Westley said:

Problem is, with the shiny new Range Rover, there is more chance of having a gun shoved under your nose  !

Normally i'd agree, but that depends where you live. And most ****s are well aware of who is in charge of their 'Manner', and what cars they drive.

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, old'un said:

Police numbers have fallen dramatically over the last 5 or 10 years, I cannot remember the last time I saw a bobby on the beat apart from big cities like Brum, the criminals know it is taking an average of 15 to 30 minutes to respond to 999 calls and most burglars are in and out in 10 minutes, as others have said, it will get worse.

The one thing you notice in America all the time is the number of police on the streets. In New York there is literally a policeman on every corner, standing, chatting to the tourists, showing a prescence. Most are just "showing the badge"

Other places, Disney, shopping malls, always police in view. Not doing anything, it must be a very boring job but they are there and they are visible.

Why pay an ex soldier to be on the dole when you could pay them to be a policeman? there is virtually no difference in cost to the public purse? just different budgets

Edited June 6, 2018 by Vince Green

[billytheghillie]

9 hours ago, Harnser said:

What with the murders ,robberies and increased crime levels what ever is happening . If you carnt take your kids to school without thugs on scooters smashing into your car something very serious is happening and a very serious answer is required . What is that answer .

harnser

the answer is a big boat!

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The one thing you notice in America all the time is the number of police on the streets. In New York there is literally a policeman on every corner, standing, chatting to the tourists, showing a prescence. Most are just "showing the badge"

Used to be the same here .......... until the present generation of 'manager' Chief Constables put them all in offices compiling 'metrics' and tweeting how well they are doing.  If our police spent as much time policing as they did tweeting how wonderful they are, there would at least be better public support.

[jam1e]

7 hours ago, yod dropper said:

Do I think the police are becoming less able to protect us?  Yes.  Am I confident they have the will to? No.

Having just watched the article on Newsnight about withholding crucial evidence in the rape and sexual assault cases that have come to light over the last few months you have to question whether they actually want to fulfil their duties.  When they know that the complainant's case is not consistent with the evidence and then when asked do not hand over that evidence to the defence there have to be some very serious questions.

I disagree with your first point, but agree with your second.

As for the first, When i joined the 'Force' (not 'Service') in the early 1990's, it was drilled into us about how much 'legal power' you had, and the fact of taking away someone's liberty, even for a drugs search was a big responsibility, and not to be taken lightly. Although, if we 'acted' in good faith, then the Chief (No IPCC then) would back us up. And whether he did or didn't, wasn't important. As Police Officers were acting on behalf of the Chief. So any balls up and the Chief was blamed, and paid out accordingly.... Not sure what, if anything has changed since??

Yet even in the 6 years I've been out, a friend of mine who joined much later, became 'Tutor'. And during his training to be a 'tutor' he couldn't believe that it had changed so much. That he had to tell new Probationers, sorry, 'students' that if they balls up, used unnecessary force, or numerous other things. The Officers themselves 'could' be sued. 

When that came into effect official or otherwise, the use of force, arrests, use of cs or pepper spray, and or baton strikes fell dramatically, and the assaults on Officers went up dramatically too.

Well handled ****'s pick up things very quickly indeed, and are always keen to exploit what helps them. 

I used to recall regularly seeing marked Police cars having pulled up known ****s, or their cars. I can't recall the last time i saw one....

They teach them all this law, then scare them so much, thy're too afraid to use it!

Jamie

 

 

 

[walshie]

Much the same as the lady being able to walk alone at 4am, anyone SHOULD be able to drive a flash car or wear a nice watch without some scrote deciding they want it.

As for the answer? The wishy-washy policing of today, scared to death of offending anyone, always making excuses for why someone is a thieving toerag instead of coming down on them like a ton of bricks obviously is not the answer, so let's try something else instead of hoping the situation will go away. 

I await the usual dialogue from the criminal apologists.

Edited June 6, 2018 by walshie

[jam1e]

5 hours ago, Harnser said:

I find it very sad that our police forces are now basically a fire brigade who clear up after a crime has been reported . They don’t protect us and they don’t prevent crime . All the chief constables are interested in is cutting costs . They won’t report or turn up for some minor crimes . A strong firm hand is needed and if necessary a big stick .

harnser

 

??

[RockySpears]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

• Tory majority
• Labour majority
• Tory minority, propped up by DUP
• Labour minority propped up by SNP, possibly LibDems

  sadly I see none of those options as being "effective",  Jeremy aside they are all centrists with a vested interest in the status quo,

 

RS

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, jam1e said:

??

You could start by making a rule that the Chief Constable role is only open to those who have risen through the ranks.  People (all walks of life) should be promoted by merit, not a slick ability with statistics, metrics, spin and powerpoint.  Blair and Campbell introduced that culture

[RockySpears]

  Oh, by the way, there are more officers now than there were in the 70's:

 

 

https://fullfact.org/crime/police-officer-numbers-have-fallen/

 

RS