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Has law and order broken down in this country ?


Harnser
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2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You could start by making a rule that the Chief Constable role is only open to those who have risen through the ranks.  People (all walks of life) should be promoted by merit, not a slick ability with statistics, metrics, spin and powerpoint.  Blair and Campbell introduced that culture

I always find it strange how lots of money is wasted on a so called Crime Commissioner. Especially as we now have an IPCC.

1 hour ago, Westley said:

I think you are a little confused. The 7000 that you refer to,  is the total number of people employed by Merseyside Police. A quick phone call has revealed that there is actually less than 3,500 Police Officers, which is WHY so many 'Civvies' are being taught how to drive Police vehicles.  You will know times are bad if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a crime and the 'Officer' attending (if there is one) is wearing an apron and headscarf and carrying a mop and bucket  !

? I shouldn't laugh, but having met some of the 'new generation' of bobbies, (Not all!) You may be better off if someone with a mop and bucket turns up!

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the only thing that breeds respect for man and police is corporal punishment (pain) whip their ***** until they cry for mummy 40 years ago  worked in Portsmouth navy guy wreck a pub was a good week end went to the isle of man got 21 as he thought days in the brig    instead had 21 lashes of the birch and he grew up that day his whole attitude to mankind changed from being an chav stinking attitude to an all round decent guy  there must be a price to pay if you are old enough you will remember a whooping for doing wrong these days you get  whooping for getting caught sad really

in the 70s in Dublin there was a problem with joyriders locals got together took baseball bats to offenders made  a mess of them then phoned the Gardi to come and get them locals  caught one guy three times in  a casts busted him up every time before he got the message pain works again personal pain is a  deterrent sorry for the rant but parents are responsible no matter what for breeding and instilling right from wrong full stop

 

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5 hours ago, Saltings said:

 

the only thing that breeds respect for man and police is corporal punishment (pain) whip their ***** until they cry for mummy 40 years ago  worked in Portsmouth navy guy wreck a pub was a good week end went to the isle of man got 21 as he thought days in the brig    instead had 21 lashes of the birch and he grew up that day his whole attitude to mankind changed from being an chav stinking attitude to an all round decent guy  there must be a price to pay if you are old enough you will remember a whooping for doing wrong these days you get  whooping for getting caught sad really

 

I think he was pulling your leg.  The last formally awarded adult corporal punishment in the RN took place in 1936.

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16 hours ago, AVB said:

What’s that got to do with being mugged? He got mugged because he was wearing a Rolex not because he was driving a 4x4! 

 

Some of the replies on this thread make me wince - we should ban the sales of nice cars and nice watches because clearly if you have either you’re asking to be mugged and are fair game. 

Indeed, if you’ve just painted your house or put a new kitchen in then you must be asking to be burgled. 

Tell the wife / girlfriend not to look too nice when she goes out or she’ll be asking to get....

Nothing about a reasonable expectation of not being mugged on the school run.

And in answer to the OP’s question the answer is ‘yes’ we are at that tipping point where the average criminal has the reasonable expectation of carrying out a crime and not being detected, caught or punished. We need more police and ‘boots on the ground’ (and those boots not connected to a CCTV camera) coupled with a period of zero tolerance to restablish law and order.

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18 hours ago, Vince Green said:

There is a massive surge in moped robberies in London and its virtually all done by young men, who came into this country in the back of a lorry from Calais or by claiming asylum on some dubious pretence. All the bleeding heart liberals who were saying we had to let them in on humanitarian grounds will not be so vocal now will they?

London has created its own problems by pure greed.

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7 hours ago, GingerCat said:

....

I agree that the thread has become 'one sided'.  It is a shame, because like so many things - it is the system that appears broken, not those doing their best to work within that system.  Our police men and women do a very difficult job.  Of that there is no doubt.  By and large - they do it well and take considerable risks some times, and a lot of abuse/stick. 

MY personal view is that the 'system' is the problem.  Our police HQ is HUGE.  They have such a shortage of space that some departments (e.g. firearms licensing) have been moved out to satellite offices.  The HQ car park there is packed and it is a hub of activity.  Joe Public sees all this.

But on the streets, it is a different story.  My local town (which used to have a 24 hour staffed police station, now sold) has had a spate of minor crimes and vandalism recently.  Car mirrors snapped off, bicycles stolen, fly tipping, lots of things that are very 'visible' to Joe Public, and are highlighted in local Facebook groups.  More and more posts here have posts like: - tried to contact police, unable to get through on non-emergency number: - rang police who said they would make a note - and offered a crime reference number: - rang police but they are too busy to attend.  It doesn't give a good impression.

Personally I believe that the police management have 'lost the plot'.  They don't see/understand/recognise Joe Public's frustrations - and they are obsessed with meeting government targets, and supplying metrics that show they need more money.  'Customer satisfaction' is not high on the managements list of priorities.

Then - the court systems, and the sentences delivered are frustrating for the police staff and Joe Public alike.  We have seen on this 'Off Topic' forum how generally there is a view that sentences are too light, certain groups appear to be above the law, parking on a yellow line seems to be a worse offence than stealing someone's possessions.

Then there is the perception (covered in a previous post) that the victims are 'encouraging crime' by having an expensive car, smart watch, being out late ........ I could go on.

In my view, the whole system needs a major shake up - and we need people leading who understand good old fashioned community policing, and understand what Joe Public wants.  We need a court system, backed up by laws that enables the police to deliver on safety, public order, reducing crime - and also gives the police men and women 'on the beat' the feeling they are backed by strong laws and courts, and regain pride in their job, and the respect of the public. 

It is a difficult job, and it has to be done - and needs commitment from the highest levels - and above all - wearing that uniform should command respect from Joe Public.

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12 hours ago, old'un said:

With each generation crime seems to-be getting worse, is it real or perceived?

I can remember my dad saying to me when I was in my 20s (the 70s) “it was never this bad when I was a young man” I now find myself saying the same thing.

I think it's perceived. 

Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous, it sounds like crime was only invented in the last ten years by foreigners who brought it over here in the back of a lorry! 

some of you agoraphobic old codgers need to lighten up, turn off the telly draw the curtains and leave your house.

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57 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

I think it's perceived. 

Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous, it sounds like crime was only invented in the last ten years by foreigners who brought it over here in the back of a lorry! 

some of you agoraphobic old codgers need to lighten up, turn off the telly draw the curtains and leave your house.

You are correct we do have our own home grown criminals but the question is, do we need to import more from abroad?

Not far from me is a hand car wash run by a Romanian guy, he’s about 38 and a nice guy to talk to, about 2 months ago I was there getting my car washed, we got talking about how long he had been here and how he wanted to open more car wash places and earn money for his family, he then told me about the town he came from in Romania and the criminal gangs who talk about coming to the UK because of how easy it was to commit crime here and get away with it, his words where “you have got a lot of very bad men coming here from my country”  
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1 minute ago, old'un said:

You are correct we do have our own home grown criminals but the question is, do we need to import more from abroad?

Here is a problem that occurs round here. 

Around the local town, there are housing estates, various vintages.  With the present high levels of internet shopping, eBay etc., it is normal to see large numbers of 'white vans' driving along slowly looking for the right house to make a delivery.  Most roads have many of these a day, all legit.

However ....... in the last 12 months or so ........ these delivery vans have been joined by similar (but usually older) vans.  If they see something 'not bolted down' - garden furniture, bicycle, building materials, they hop out and pinch it.  If intercepted, they profess no English and hand it back, or some say they thought it had been put out for scrap.  If you do a search on the van registration number it invariably comes up with 'no tax, no MoT' status.  Some vans are even carrying logos from local companies ........ one such was scrapped by the owning company (beyond economical repair) - and with a well known local name and number, seemed above suspicion.  Former owners were very embarrassed.  The drivers of these vans are very bold, and if the house looks empty, will have a look round the back garden as well, see if the shed is locked, possibly even try the house doors ....... they are confident they will not be caught.

When locals phone the police, they are frequently told that 'yes we know about that van, but can't do anything'.  This is why there has been so much loss of respect for the police.  There are simple, easy to detect crimes taking place - and people are reporting them with registration numbers ....... but the difficulty seems to be that it is almost impossible to prove and offence.  People now don't bother to phone the police - as they have no confidence anything will be done.

I find this hard to understand when the vehicles are untaxed and without MoT - and locals are concerned.

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30 minutes ago, old'un said:

You are correct we do have our own home grown criminals but the question is, do we need to import more from abroad?

 

 

Not far from me is a hand car wash run by a Romanian guy, he’s about 38 and a nice guy to talk to, about 2 months ago I was there getting my car washed, we got talking about how long he had been here and how he wanted to open more car wash places and earn money for his family, he then told me about the town he came from in Romania and the criminal gangs who talk about coming to the UK because of how easy it was to commit crime here and get away with it, his words where “you have got a lot of very bad men coming here from my country”  

But that's not a new story is it? 

The only thing that has changed is that it is easier to travel here, there has always been one race or another blamed for the country's crime or troubles. 

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10 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So where the hell are they all?

Good question.

Here are 2 of Gloucestershire's finest, hard at work "protecting the public": https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/cotswold-police-responding-most-hot-1548852

Their very own Hot Fuzz moment. Can't help wondering why the fat one (How does he pass the fitness tests??) is wielding his truncheon

I believe the great majority of the population want our police to give top priority to maintaining law and order. I also strongly suspect that view is shared by a majority of serving police officers. Unfortunately the Police Chiefs Council (formerly ACPO) along with other senior management level officers show little or no concern for what the public want and have been permitted to set their own priorities and decide not only which laws they want to uphold but in some cases (e.g. shotgun/firearm certificates) they virtually make up their own. And now we have that spineless little worm Javid as Home Secretary sweet grovelling around the Police Chiefs and kissing their backsides when he should be kicking them

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19 hours ago, Vince Green said:

There is a massive surge in moped robberies in London and its virtually all done by young men, who came into this country in the back of a lorry from Calais or by claiming asylum on some dubious pretence. All the bleeding heart liberals who were saying we had to let them in on humanitarian grounds will not be so vocal now will they?

Of course they will Vince until it happens to them personally, then their cry becomes about the poor childhood the perpetrators had so they didn't know any better?

FWIW my opinion? The slide started when successive politicos, police, bankers and judiciary (the so called ruling elite) continually broke the rules and went unpunished, it didn't take the so called underclasses long to catch on to easy street. 

Sadly I don't see any possibility of the current situation being remedied, we all know where it will end up eventually as that seems a cycle of life.

Historically society went from lawlessness (personal responsibility for safety) to someone saying let's have a police force, via Dixon of Dock Green (care for all) to todays unworkable situation by dilution via constant interference politics (someone always needs preferential treatment) So we arrive back at lawlessness (personal responsibility) 

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1 hour ago, poontang said:

There are more coppers, but those extra few men have to police nearly an extra 11 million people.  

 

Good point.  ?  But I think the extra 11 million have decided they do not need policing, so we keep our share of the coppers ☺️

 

RS

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6 minutes ago, Westward said:

Here are 2 of Gloucestershire's finest, hard at work "protecting the public"

I'm near Gloucestershire - their Force seem to be particularly 'Social Media' active ........ not (in my view) a good thing.  I'm also opposed to all of the "Police, Camera, Action" programmes.  I don't think it shows the police in a good light and must waste their time.

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Quote

criminals have seemed to rule the prisons. 

A documentary by BBC Panorama about HMP Northumberland confirms that.

I'm amazed at the Police Interceptors program in Durham, phone the police you cannot get them to come out, yet they manage to get half a dozen cars to attend on the program...smoke & mirrors.

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21 hours ago, Rewulf said:

'Equally, the purpose of any system of justice should not just be to punish and deter, but also to rehabilitate, for the good of society as well as the criminal. Which is why there are practical reasons, as well as those connected with civil liberties, for reforming our monstrous prison regime.'

Thats the main problem right there.Deterrence , or lack of it.
Any guesses who wrote that ?

https://www.newstatesman.com/2015/12/archive-tony-blair-tough-crime-tough-causes-crime

I was watching Michael Portillo in Secret Britain a few weeks back and they were visiting Shepton Mallet. An interesting point that was raised was that prisons can't both punish and rehabilitate. I would say, as an outsider (no pun intended), they were right. How can you punish and rehabilitate simultaneously? 

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1 hour ago, Westward said:

 

Here are 2 of Gloucestershire's finest, hard at work "protecting the public": https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/cotswold-police-responding-most-hot-1548852

Their very own Hot Fuzz moment. Can't help wondering why the fat one (How does he pass the fitness tests??) is wielding his truncheon

 

I believe the picture is indeed a still from the film 'Hot Fuzz' with the actor with the truncheon being the well fed Nick Frost.

On a more serious note.
Yes you SHOULD be able to walk the streets at night without fear of harm.
You SHOULD be able to have a nice car or watch without some little scrote wanting to take it from you with violence.
And yes you SHOULD be able to do many other legal things without fear of harassment, intimidation or violence.
You should also be able to speak your mind, without some of these rare policeman knocking on your door to warn you about 'further action' if you continue.
You hear that they dont have the resources to visit every burglary or car theft, yet there seems to be plenty for the more mundane duties.

Anyone with a bit of cynicism might think they want you to feel the fear of crime, and this is not your average bobbies fault, its the upper echelons, the political class within government and the police.
But why would they want that?
Who knows, if we were allowed to take a more proactive defence of life and property, then you could say they want to pass some of the policing burden on to the public ?
But try defending yourself or your property too vigorously, and we all know what happens there.

I live in a rough area, we have even had a few moped gang robberies, I live next door to a drug dealer (just weed by the constant smell) he has no issues with cars pulling up, and him walking out with a clear plastic bag of skunk and passing it through the window, he fears no law.
Hes around 25 and lives with his mother, who never leaves the house (depression after her partner stabbed her in the bum 6 years ago apparently)
A few months back he upset someone and they destroyed his car and put his windows out, plenty of police in attendance for that, both times the house was thoroughly searched, but within hours the cars are pulling up outside again.
A few might say, report him, but I have 2 teenage daughters living with me, and I will not put them in any more danger than they already are.
I believe the police wouldnt be interested anyway, they seem little interested when a large motorbike goes past them  with up to 3, yes 3 , early teen kids on the back of it , no helmets on.

What Im saying is, there are parts of this country that are becoming lawless, we arent a million miles away from no go areas if it continues.
Mr Khan said ' Its part and parcel of living in a big city' is that the case with the moped gangs now too ?
If the people dont fear the law, you have no law.

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