Has law and order broken down in this country ?

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

On occasions I can remember I think being caught 'red handed' led to it being 'a fair cop', and punishment followed.

Which seems reasonable.

And there you have the crux of the matter.

You do the crime,you get caught bang to rights, you go up to answer for those crimes, it could be the headmaster, the judge, but then ..nothing, no real punishment,no deterrent.

An army of social workers, solicitors, probation officers and liberal thinking people queue up to shout your corner, tell everyone how you had a rough childhood, and ultimately, stop any real punishment for what you've done.

Now the normal thought process when you get caught doing something you shouldn't, might be to not do it again. It might be to not get CAUGHT doing it again, but when you're pretty certain nothings going to happen if you keep going , till eventually,maybe,you get some jailtime, even then it's no deterrent, just a holiday with your mates.

And that's ultimately the problem, there are no consequences.

Edit.Another example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5826515/Jail-brothers-robbed-61-HOUSES-SEVEN-MONTHS-burgling-spree-cars-jewellery.html#comments-5826515

Edited June 10, 2018 by Rewulf

[old man]

A need to be realistic here?

No solution now possible or achievable as it has all gone on far too long and has become the norm?

Who would get any votes if a clean up was proposed?

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, old man said:

A need to be realistic here?

No solution now possible or achievable as it has all gone on far too long and has become the norm?

Who would get any votes if a clean up was proposed?

Absolutely true.

However,at some point if general crime and lawlessness continues to worsen, there will come a point where we virtually beg for some kind of police state, given that usually comes with a suspension of citizens basic rights. Is this the path we want?

I often ask myself if our policymakers are doing this by design,or is it just a consequence of poor management?

I think a lot of the populace think that as time goes by, people will just get less prone to criminal behaviour,and one day you'll wake up,and crime will be virtually nil. But the pieces on the board are most definitely not set up to achieve this utopian goal, in fact the opposite is more likely, and the stats confirm it.

It won't end up in Mad max style anarchy though, rather a more big brother style dystopian hell, scratch the surface and the board IS set up for this.

[pinfireman]

On 06/06/2018 at 12:40, Rewulf said:

'Equally, the purpose of any system of justice should not just be to punish and deter, but also to rehabilitate, for the good of society as well as the criminal. Which is why there are practical reasons, as well as those connected with civil liberties, for reforming our monstrous prison regime.'

Thats the main problem right there.Deterrence , or lack of it.
Any guesses who wrote that ?

https://www.newstatesman.com/2015/12/archive-tony-blair-tough-crime-tough-causes-crime

The plonker Blair?

I get fed up with people with political agendas blaming "cuts"!  It,s the rubbish justice system to blame.......prisons like holiday camps, where prisoners are treated better than pensioners! Pathetically short sentences....................judges out of touch with the public mood. That,s where the problem lies!

[henry d]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

However,at some point if general crime and lawlessness continues to worsen, there will come a point where we virtually beg for some kind of police state, given that usually comes with a suspension of citizens basic rights. Is this the path we want?

Yeah man!

We have been there and done that, wind back to Victorian Britain, peelers, hulk ships and deportation. " What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Qoheleth

 

[old man]

Looking at the whole system from to to bottom it's not, in my opinion fit for purpose?

Constant meddling from MP's, House of Lords, back room bods and any one able, all seemingly with agendas to give someone an advantage over the general population or bias the direction of a situation filters down the ladder to ammend the actions of the judiciary and police to make the systems unworkable. All of this with maybe little application of common sense? 

What a mess, good job that lots of money is being made behind the scenes and moved off shore?

Don't forget, we are all in it together, innit?

 

 

[old man]

On 10/06/2018 at 14:57, Rewulf said:

Absolutely true.

However,at some point if general crime and lawlessness continues to worsen, there will come a point where we virtually beg for some kind of police state, given that usually comes with a suspension of citizens basic rights. Is this the path we want?

I often ask myself if our policymakers are doing this by design,or is it just a consequence of poor management?

 

An astute observation sir!

[RockySpears]

1 hour ago, old man said:

On 10/06/2018 at 14:57, Rewulf said:

Absolutely true.

However,at some point if general crime and lawlessness continues to worsen, there will come a point where we virtually beg for some kind of police state, given that usually comes with a suspension of citizens basic rights. Is this the path we want?

I often ask myself if our policymakers are doing this by design,or is it just a consequence of poor management?

 

An astute observation sir!

  When, approximately, was this observed to happen?

 

RS

[12gauge82]

38 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

  When, approximately, was this observed to happen?

 

RS

There was certainly alot of laws bought in when Labour came to power in 1997, also the human rights act when that came in, hard to put a finger in exacty when it happened but it does certainly appear to be happening.

[old man]

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

  When, approximately, was this observed to happen?

 

RS

Just observation over 50 years.

[das]

On 09/06/2018 at 04:16, Retsdon said:

Sign Up Now

 

 

"Failure is not a single, cataclysmic event. You don't fail overnight. Instead, failure is a few errors in judgment, repeated every single day." —Jim Rohn

Societies' failures, in no particular order.

1) Social acceptance of single parent families.

2) Mass immigration

3) Doing away with corporal punishment in schools.

4) Doing away with formal religious teaching.

5) A massive relative fall in pay for unskilled labour.

6) Victimhood as a legitimate form of self-identity.

7) Catastrophically incompetent political leadership

? Doing away with compulsory sport in schools.

9) Doing away with single gender secondary schools.

10) The demise of genuine patriotism.

Apologies for the emjois. Don't know where they came from or how to get rid of them.

?

 

Unfortunately, you are dead right my friend.  ☹️

[Tollerman]

When the punishment fits the crime perhaps thinks may get better. Society makes excuses for just about any anti -social or criminal behaviour .I just read today's Daily Mail story about the Lancashire brewery taken over and trashed by ' travellers ' and just could not understand how  it was allow to happen .Beyond belief !

[JohnfromUK]

24 minutes ago, Tollerman said:

When the punishment fits the crime perhaps thinks may get better. Society makes excuses for just about any anti -social or criminal behaviour .I just read today's Daily Mail story about the Lancashire brewery taken over and trashed by ' travellers ' and just could not understand how  it was allow to happen .Beyond belief !

I read that as well.  Appalling.

There is a also an article in the same paper today about a 'road rage' incident captured on dashcam where the police are taking no action 'because they don't know where it took place'.  It was captured with the dashcam including roadsigns on a roundabout and the registration number of the alleged offender (all clearly readable).

Unfortunately, the police these days are more interested in appearing as the stars on high profile stuff like "Police, Camera, Action", catching simple offences (speeding, parking etc.) than doing the harder tasks.

Some years ago 'travellers' set up in the car park of an office in which I was working.  There were about 15 persons, 3 or 4 caravans and several dogs, so not a huge group.  Forced their way in, and took over about 1/3 of the car park.  Police attended, but 'couldn't do anything' as it would 'inflame the situation' and we were advised to find somewhere else to park, and make no contact.  Company involved hired a bailiff service to 'reason with them', and they moved on after a couple of days, thankfully leaving minimal damage and not a great deal of mess.

[RockySpears]

22 hours ago, RockySpears said:

we virtually beg for some kind of police state

 My question was more aimed at this bit ⬆️

We may all think the coppers are not doing enough, and want "better" policing, but we have never invited a Police State.  I cannot think of another country that has done this either, at least, not one where the Police State was not already in force,

RS

[Tollerman]

No not a police state but one where the existing laws are actually enforced and appropriate  sentences  handed down .

[ditchman]

3 hours ago, Tollerman said:

No not a police state but one where the existing laws are actually enforced and appropriate  sentences  handed down .

there lays the rub............................enter stage right..yes folks our good old friend............................ttaaaa dddaddaaaaaa........"the court of human rights"....now what are you going to do..

[Yellow Bear]

17 minutes ago, ditchman said:

.."the court of human rights"....now what are you going to do..

Hopefully, sooner or later, someone will ask, what about the "Human Rights" of the victim to get justice?.   One lives in hope but I am not holding my breath.

[ditchman]

56 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Hopefully, sooner or later, someone will ask, what about the "Human Rights" of the victim to get justice?.   One lives in hope but I am not holding my breath.

apparently ....  im not sure ,,,but i believe we will be exiting the european court of human rights hold over us when we leave the EU and "developing " our own system..............

 

[Gordon R]

This is not Lancashire Police's finest hour. Total and utter disgrace.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5850281/ROBERT-HARDMAN-did-police-stop-travellers-destroying-historic-brewery.html

A lad who shot at the same ground last week gave me the details - in full - before I read this.

Law and order chucked out of the window.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Gordon

Taken from a  recent Lancashire Telegraph item;

"The Lancashire Telegraph reported earlier in the month that Chief Constable Andy Rhodes said those responsible would be brought to justice.

He said: “The Blackburn force is determined to make sure the people who carried out this criminal act pay.”

I wonder if he will offer his resignation?

[guzzicat]

On 06/06/2018 at 15:01, pigeon controller said:

My idea is that the Victorians had it right, they built sufficient prisons to hous the required number. No suspended sentences. They put them to work , no play stations etc. The workhouse was there to prevent people starving but no handouts. The Quakers built garden cities in Bournvile, to give the workers some pride in the company. Built hospital complexes which included mental homes and also sanitariums for recovering patients, no bed blocking. They smacked children, at home as well as at school. Hung murderers.

They may have had perversion and prostitutes and drug taking behind closed doors but they outwardly presented themselves to be a well regulated society. 

We seem to have an open door society that allows the minority to rule. LBGT has gone mad, I do not need to know the orientation of an individual , criminals have seemed to rule the prisons. 

Thats my thoughts know doubt I will be corrected as required ?

The judge sentencing them called them "21st century highwaymen",BUT an 18th century highwaymen faced the risk of being shot as very few travellers worth robbing went unarmed & if they were caught faced the certainty of  a " Tyburn Morris"

[yod dropper]

47 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Gordon

Taken from a  recent Lancashire Telegraph item;

"The Lancashire Telegraph reported earlier in the month that Chief Constable Andy Rhodes said those responsible would be brought to justice.

He said: “The Blackburn force is determined to make sure the people who carried out this criminal act pay.”

I wonder if he will offer his resignation?

It looks like he's said something we know and I'm sure he knows he won't be able to do. As such his word means nothing and the local people won't trust him.  That sort of thing is the beginning of the breakdown of law and order.  You don't believe the police and you don't believe in their ability to protect you so you feel the need to do it yourself.  Forget the PR, the man would have been better keeping his mouth shut.  This sort of thing stays in the deep memory.  When we had associated troubles in Cromer our CC was careful enough not to promise something he couldn't deliver on.

[old man]

12 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

Hopefully, sooner or later, someone will ask, what about the "Human Rights" of the victim to get justice?.   One lives in hope but I am not holding my breath.

Old saying here, 'live in hope, die in despair'

[Scully]

12 hours ago, Gordon R said:

This is not Lancashire Police's finest hour. Total and utter disgrace.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5850281/ROBERT-HARDMAN-did-police-stop-travellers-destroying-historic-brewery.html

A lad who shot at the same ground last week gave me the details - in full - before I read this.

Law and order chucked out of the window.

Absolutely scandalous! I sincerely hope the locals get the media involved and don't let this rest, because once they do, those responsible have got away with it....and so have the police. 

In the preceding weeks to the Horse Fair itself, many hundreds of travellers congregate at various outlying villages and roadsides, prior to the hill being opened at Appleby. Many of these roads ( which are public highways ) as a result, become congested to the point they are often blocked, with vehicles being parked at random and people literally camping their caravans and vehicle on the road itself. A couple in their 60's were trying to negotiate one of these roads near Soulby when they rounded a corner to find numerous kids playing on the road. A toddler was struck at low speed and when the horrified driver got out of the vehicle to see what he could do, he was met with angry travellers. He tried togged back in his vehicle but his ignition keys were seized and thrown into the hedge. When he tried to retrieve his keys he was set upon by around 'ten' ( police quote ) travellers and badly beaten. Police eventually arrived and arrested the driver who was taken to hospital and treated for a fractured vertebrae plus other injuries. The child had a broken leg. 

As far as I can find, no other arrests were made.  

There have been countless incidences of flouting laws such as driving without seat belts and use of mobiles whilst driving. No fines were levied from what I can gather. 

Over the years I have witnessed who knows how many incidences of police and ministry ignoring breaches of laws which you or I would ...and in my case have been, prosecuted for.

I realise this is a rant, and I could itemise dozens of such incidences, but one rule for them and another for us really sticks in my craw. It stinks. 

[old'un]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Absolutely scandalous! I sincerely hope the locals get the media involved and don't let this rest, because once they do, those responsible have got away with it....and so have the police. 

In the preceding weeks to the Horse Fair itself, many hundreds of travellers congregate at various outlying villages and roadsides, prior to the hill being opened at Appleby. Many of these roads ( which are public highways ) as a result, become congested to the point they are often blocked, with vehicles being parked at random and people literally camping their caravans and vehicle on the road itself. A couple in their 60's were trying to negotiate one of these roads near Soulby when they rounded a corner to find numerous kids playing on the road. A toddler was struck at low speed and when the horrified driver got out of the vehicle to see what he could do, he was met with angry travellers. He tried togged back in his vehicle but his ignition keys were seized and thrown into the hedge. When he tried to retrieve his keys he was set upon by around 'ten' ( police quote ) travellers and badly beaten. Police eventually arrived and arrested the driver who was taken to hospital and treated for a fractured vertebrae plus other injuries. The child had a broken leg. 

As far as I can find, no other arrests were made.  

There have been countless incidences of flouting laws such as driving without seat belts and use of mobiles whilst driving. No fines were levied from what I can gather. 

Over the years I have witnessed who knows how many incidences of police and ministry ignoring breaches of laws which you or I would ...and in my case have been, prosecuted for.

I realise this is a rant, and I could itemise dozens of such incidences, but one rule for them and another for us really sticks in my craw. It stinks. 

Yes, because you have a permanent address and they know where to find you.