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Has law and order broken down in this country ?


Harnser
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Like all of the laws now, they only apply to those who are easy to 'catch' and prosecute. 

It is the same with taxation ..... basically now only applies to the 'middle section'.  The lower section have largely been taken out of taxation - by virtue of increased personal allowances (something that I agree with), don't generally have liabilities for inheritance tax or capital gains tax, ......  and the very wealthy can in effect 'bypass' substantial amounts of tax by various avoidance/evasion schemes, many of which are perfectly legal.  But the middle and 'upper middle' including prudent savers are hit hard by all taxes.

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I don’t think it’s to far away for citizens to be patrolling their own streets and neighbour hoods  to keep the thugs and drug dealers out . What will the government and chief constables have to say then . They would have to admit that law and order had broken down . There are some really rough and lawless places out there .

harnser 

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48 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

The scrap from Thwaites Brewery would be paid for by cheque at the scrapyard, they are easily found or have I got it wrong.

I'm not sure how it works now, but I would think it fairly easy for untraceable elements to be taken to scrapyards and 'lost',  and the sellers paid in cash. There are plenty of dealers willing to deal in cash in hand for items that can't be traced, despite legislation introduced in an effort to stop it. 

Last year just after the horse fair at Appleby the local JT Atkinson ( building suppliers ) was broken into and the entire stock of plumbing ( copper ) materials stolen, and nothing else. It was either stolen to order for a specific job, or went for scrap. They gained access via the only two windows not alarmed, which indicates a good recce beforehand. 

Travellers were never happy about us photographing their vehicles whenever they would turn up in the yard to try and sell us power tools etc. 

48 minutes ago, Harnser said:

I don’t think it’s to far away for citizens to be patrolling their own streets and neighbour hoods  to keep the thugs and drug dealers out . What will the government and chief constables have to say then . They would have to admit that law and order had broken down . There are some really rough and lawless places out there .

harnser 

Perhaps that is what it will take to get politicians and police to sit up and take notice. There are already people out there 'entrapping' online groomers and potential peodophiles. . 

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6 hours ago, Scully said:

Absolutely scandalous! I sincerely hope the locals get the media involved and don't let this rest, because once they do, those responsible have got away with it....and so have the police. 

In the preceding weeks to the Horse Fair itself, many hundreds of travellers congregate at various outlying villages and roadsides, prior to the hill being opened at Appleby. Many of these roads ( which are public highways ) as a result, become congested to the point they are often blocked, with vehicles being parked at random and people literally camping their caravans and vehicle on the road itself. A couple in their 60's were trying to negotiate one of these roads near Soulby when they rounded a corner to find numerous kids playing on the road. A toddler was struck at low speed and when the horrified driver got out of the vehicle to see what he could do, he was met with angry travellers. He tried togged back in his vehicle but his ignition keys were seized and thrown into the hedge. When he tried to retrieve his keys he was set upon by around 'ten' ( police quote ) travellers and badly beaten. Police eventually arrived and arrested the driver who was taken to hospital and treated for a fractured vertebrae plus other injuries. The child had a broken leg. 

As far as I can find, no other arrests were made.  

There have been countless incidences of flouting laws such as driving without seat belts and use of mobiles whilst driving. No fines were levied from what I can gather. 

Over the years I have witnessed who knows how many incidences of police and ministry ignoring breaches of laws which you or I would ...and in my case have been, prosecuted for.

I realise this is a rant, and I could itemise dozens of such incidences, but one rule for them and another for us really sticks in my craw. It stinks. 

I don't see a rant there just the truth.

They ued to say 'the truth will out' difficult to see it these days in some instances.

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A quick update to the above. The couple were eventually rescued by a lone copper who just happened to be travelling by, and wasn't arrested but taken to hospital in the police car as there was little prospect of an ambulance getting through. 

It isn't stated how the child got to hospital but over a week later there still hasn't been any arrests made. 

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I am a frequent visitor to the US, I just got back from my latest jaunt, what never ceases to amaze me over there are the number of police everywhere, in cars, on the streets, in the malls. Just showing the badge as they call it. If there is an incident anywhere there are ten cars on it immediately.

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10 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I am a frequent visitor to the US, I just got back from my latest jaunt, what never ceases to amaze me over there are the number of police everywhere, in cars, on the streets, in the malls. Just showing the badge as they call it. If there is an incident anywhere there are ten cars on it immediately.

  .. and still there is crime?  So having lots of coppers is not the solution?

  It basically comes down to the fact that if criminals want to, they will.  They do not fear capture or punishment.  Maybe more cops on the beat gets a faster response, but it seems to do little to actually prevent crime.

  We have crime because we have criminals.  What we should NOT have is a second time around criminal.  

One strike and you are out, that is probably the only way to get this sorted.   I don't mean locking them up at our expense either,

 

RS

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2 hours ago, RockySpears said:

  .. and still there is crime?  So having lots of coppers is not the solution?

  It basically comes down to the fact that if criminals want to, they will.  They do not fear capture or punishment.  Maybe more cops on the beat gets a faster response, but it seems to do little to actually prevent crime.

  We have crime because we have criminals.  What we should NOT have is a second time around criminal.  

One strike and you are out, that is probably the only way to get this sorted.   I don't mean locking them up at our expense either,

 

RS

The crime rate for a lot of crimes in many areas is far lower in America than it is here. But they also have terrible poverty and social exclusion. They also have very heavy prison sentences though. Something that could get you let off with a caution in UK can easily get you 7-10 in the US. That works

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On 21/06/2018 at 11:51, RockySpears said:

  No one should have to break the law to show others who is breaking the law.  

It is all a mess sadly and as has been said already there is probably no fixing it,

 

RS

An astute observation, but seemingly the way that society is sliding?

Too fractured to fix?

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17 hours ago, henry d said:

It was all over the media like a rash, everyone knew what was going on andd he just waded in with his own agenda, he`s now in Hull I believe

Which is obviously making you very happy, because that's twice you've posted that 'comedy' link.

Why don't you post the link to the newspaper, who got a fine for doing exactly the same thing ?

Back on topic meet Joshua slinger.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/kidnapper-who-wanted-rape-woman-1706260

What the news piece doesn't mention, is this scumbag had very recently been through the court system TWICE , for beating people up in pubs.

https://www.worksopguardian.co.uk/news/jail-warning-for-bassetlaw-thug-s-disgusting-pub-attack-1-8467233

So maybe ,if we had a justice system that actually worked, that poor woman's life wouldn't have been wrecked.

But don't worry, as long as you keep locking the 'right' people up, we can all sleep safe in our beds at night aye ?

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16 hours ago, old man said:

Too fractured to fix?

  I have to believe there is hope.  I have to!  But looking at the current situation, our laws have just become a jumble of nonsense, comprehensible by only a few, and then only after years of training and experience.  The law should not be like that, it is almost always obvious who the bad guy is and what he has done.  Having served Jury Service, I am astounded by some peoples attitudes, in one case a fellow juror did not want to find a guy guilty of rape, DESPITE the overwhelming evidence, both forensic and witnessed, her reasoning was "What if I am wrong?"  She could not even trust her own judgement.  If people do not even trust themselves and have belief in their own convictions, what chance do we have?

  Cases just seem to take far too long.  I am all for a fair trial, but if it goes on for months, how are you, as a juror, expected to remember the finer points from 16 weeks ago.  Not to mention the fact that if you are self employed tough, your business goes under.  You can get away with refusing once, my wife has for exactly this reason, but you pretty much have to take the next service call.

    The system is not fractured, it is bloated to hell,

 

RS

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12 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

if you are self employed tough, your business goes under.  You can get away with refusing once, my wife has for exactly this reason, but you pretty much have to take the next service call.

That's why you don’t refuse, you let them remove their request.

I'm self-employed and had a request for jury service, I wrote them a letter stating my daily earnings asking for appropriate compensation also stating that I may have to employ someone to cover my work and also asking for appropriate compensation for that. I had a letter back removing the request for jury service on the grounds that it would put my business and lively hood at risk as they wouldn't be able to cover the cost.

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1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

If people do not even trust themselves and have belief in their own convictions, what chance do we have?

This is very true.  You have to stand up for what you believe is right ....... and not leave it for others.

 

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

But looking at the current situation, our laws have just become a jumble of nonsense, comprehensible by only a few, and then only after years of training and experience.

The statute book (the laws) has become HUGE.  Far to big for anyone to really know and understand.  Tax law alone runs to thousands of pages.

 

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

I am all for a fair trial, but if it goes on for months, how are you, as a juror, expected to remember the finer points from 16 weeks ago.

This is also true, though to be fair, the judges 'summing up' should direct the jury to the important points.  The key decision for the jury can often come down to 'which version' they believe to be true ........ and of course it has to be 'beyond reasonable doubt', which does make it difficult to find guilty in some cases.

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Going back to the original title of the thread, I've just read a news article online via the BBC about a Food Bank being broken into and robbed in Dorset. 

(a) I can't believe that people could be so stupid to rob a Food a Bank that is supplying families who face hardship.

(b) I can't understand how they expect to profit from it.

I don't think that law and order has broken down, but is in the process of breaking down.

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17 hours ago, Ricko said:

Going back to the original title of the thread, I've just read a news article online via the BBC about a Food Bank being broken into and robbed in Dorset. 

(a) I can't believe that people could be so stupid to rob a Food a Bank that is supplying families who face hardship.

(b) I can't understand how they expect to profit from it. 

I don't think that law and order has broken down, but is in the process of breaking down.

  With respect to b), our garage was broken into a couple of years back, they took a small chainsaw, orange juice, washing up tablets, tinned food and packets of pasta we keep in a cupboard out there.  They were not looking for profit, they were looking for food.

Let that sink in.  People in the UK feel they need to steal FOOD.  Was this not how the French Revolution begann?

 

RS

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On 23/06/2018 at 18:05, Ricko said:

Going back to the original title of the thread, I've just read a news article online via the BBC about a Food Bank being broken into and robbed in Dorset. 

(a) I can't believe that people could be so stupid to rob a Food a Bank that is supplying families who face hardship.

(b) I can't understand how they expect to profit from it.

I don't think that law and order has broken down, but is in the process of breaking down.

They were proberbly drug addicts . They wouldn’t have necessarily been stealing food as such to eat but stealing to sell on and fund their habit . The food bank would have been a soft target .

harnser

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On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 13:00, Bazooka Joe said:

The scrap from Thwaites Brewery would be paid for by cheque at the scrapyard, they are easily found or have I got it wrong.

They can just take it to the nearest branch of The Money Shop or similar and cash it.

Lots of self employed builders and plumbers etc cash their cheques at these places. The shop charges 10% but that is still cheaper than putting it through the books and having to pay tax at a much higher rate.

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