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scolopax

Led up the garden path....

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    3 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

    Quoting the £/$ is one thing

    The reason is that the dollar is a 'reference' as oil and all major commodities tend to be quoted in dollars

    5 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

    if your local Library etc that says ‘built with EU funding would have been built or would you be happy with the old 60’s building it replaced. This is just the first example along with things like I believe the Eden Project  sprung to mind)

    The EU has certainly funded things here ....... but you cannot escape the fact that we have been (very major) net contributors all of our time 'in' - and all over the EU (including the UK) these EU funded projects have been partly built with our pounds - as well as Euros from (actually rather few) other net contributors like Germany and Holland.

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    32 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

    if your local Library etc that says ‘built with EU funding would have been built or would you be happy with the old 60’s building it replaced. This is just the first example along with things like I believe the Eden Project  sprung to mind).

    EU funding? there's no such thing when it comes to the UK. It's all been funded from the UK via the EU they give us back some of our own money, we have never got back more than we put in. I take your point about the Library probably not getting rebuilt, because our government would've probably wasted the money elsewhere.

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    46 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    The reason is that the dollar is a 'reference' as oil and all major commodities tend to be quoted in dollars

    The EU has certainly funded things here ....... but you cannot escape the fact that we have been (very major) net contributors all of our time 'in' - and all over the EU (including the UK) these EU funded projects have been partly built with our pounds - as well as Euros from (actually rather few) other net contributors like Germany and Holland.

    I’m the ‘Net contributor’ in my marriage, as I’m sure many others are- I didn’t go into it thinking I was getting good value or more out than I put in, in fact from a financial point it’s crippling, but does have other benefits ?

    Like all marriages, there are good and bad parts and ultimately some end in divorce- some divorcees go on to have happy and fulfilling lives and others not.

    Lets wait and see how this one pans out

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    14 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

    I’m the ‘Net contributor’ in my marriage, as I’m sure many others are- I didn’t go into it thinking I was getting good value or more out than I put in, in fact from a financial point it’s crippling, but does have other benefits ?

    Like all marriages, there are good and bad parts and ultimately some end in divorce- some divorcees go on to have happy and fulfilling lives and others not.

    Lets wait and see how this one pans out

    But its safe to assume you entered into the marriage of your own free will. I had no choice but to join the EU, and when I got the chance to choose, I chose out. There was no benefit from my point of view to me voting to stay in. 

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    12 minutes ago, Scully said:

    But its safe to assume you entered into the marriage of your own free will. I had no choice but to join the EU, and when I got the chance to choose, I chose out. There was no benefit from my point of view to me voting to stay in. 

    Actually your right- you didn’t have a choice, it was made by the then Government who are elected to place ‘all our needs’ first.

    It should also in my opinion have been a decision once again made by the ‘Current’ Government and not we, the general public - otherwise why do we have a Government when we could just have ‘Facebook’ Polls or decisions made by Jeremy Kyle ( no offence intended, but some people in Society shouldn’t even be allowed to use scissors, yet alone make these sort of decisions- it’s not choosing a new sofa that you can change in a few month if you don’t like it)

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    Since when has spending £350 million a week to be able to trade, been in 'all of our needs'.

    If the supermarket you shop in started charging you to use their shop ie a membership would you still trade with them? Because that is exactly what the EU do.

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    1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

    Actually your right- you didn’t have a choice, it was made by the then Government who are elected to place ‘all our needs’ first.

    It should also in my opinion have been a decision once again made by the ‘Current’ Government and not we, the general public - otherwise why do we have a Government when we could just have ‘Facebook’ Polls or decisions made by Jeremy Kyle ( no offence intended, but some people in Society shouldn’t even be allowed to use scissors, yet alone make these sort of decisions- it’s not choosing a new sofa that you can change in a few month if you don’t like it)

    Well it's all water under the bridge now, the votes been made and it's soon time to leave, the best thing this country can do now, regardless of which Side of the debate your on, is pull together and get behind us leaving.

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    10 hours ago, Jaymo said:

    Actually your right- you didn’t have a choice, it was made by the then Government who are elected to place ‘all our needs’ first.

    It should also in my opinion have been a decision once again made by the ‘Current’ Government and not we, the general public - otherwise why do we have a Government when we could just have ‘Facebook’ Polls or decisions made by Jeremy Kyle ( no offence intended, but some people in Society shouldn’t even be allowed to use scissors, yet alone make these sort of decisions- it’s not choosing a new sofa that you can change in a few month if you don’t like it)

    I thought the government of the time joined the EEC and then there was a vote some time later in which the general public voted to stay in?

    The current government ( if they had had the choice to decide ) would have voted for the status quo, as they obviously didn’t want to leave, but Cameron rightly gave us a referendum and the majority voted out. Some people need to get over the fact the outcome didn’t go their way. 

    To suggest that some shouldn’t be allowed to vote and such decisions should be left to governments is indicative of the kind of arrogance that is everything that is wrong about today’s politicians, and especially those in the EU, and most of those who voted remain. 

    Its the ignoring of the masses by those who claim they know best, which led to the out vote for us and the in vote for Trump. As a famous dead man once said: ‘You can fool all the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all of the time.’ Or something like that. 

    Edited by Scully

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    16 minutes ago, Scully said:

    I thought the government of the time joined the EEC and then there was a vote some time later in which the general public voted to stay in?

    The current government ( if they had had the choice to decide ) would have voted for the status quo, as they obviously didn’t want to leave, but Cameron rightly gave us a referendum and the majority voted out. Some people need to get over the fact the outcome didn’t go their way. 

    To suggest that some shouldn’t be allowed to vote and such decisions should be left to governments is indicative of the kind of arrogance that is everything that is wrong about today’s politicians, and especially those in the EU, and most of those who voted remain. 

    Its the ignoring of the masses by those who claim they know best, which led to the out vote for us and the in vote for Trump. As a famous dead man once said: ‘You can fool the people some of the time, but you can’t fool the public all of the time.’

    Good post Scully 

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    12 hours ago, Jaymo said:

    I’m the ‘Net contributor’ in my marriage, as I’m sure many others are- I didn’t go into it thinking I was getting good value or more out than I put in, in fact from a financial point it’s crippling, but does have other benefits ?

    Like all marriages, there are good and bad parts and ultimately some end in divorce- some divorcees go on to have happy and fulfilling lives and others not.

    Lets wait and see how this one pans out

    The 'marriage' analogy is an interesting one.
    You say you didnt go into it thinking you would get 'good value', but then, you did it for a reason of some sort?

    We entered the EEC because we thought it would make trade easier, and it does.
    Despite the then leaders of this 'trade alliance' making many noises of ever closer union, and the fairly obvious path it was going to go, we kept in, and reaped  the 'benefits' of frictionless trade.
    A bit like marriage, this honeymoon period was relatively good ,despite the economic stresses of the time.
    But as in many relationships, the cracks begin to show after a while.
    An innocent sounding treaty here and there, and you find yourself bound by the ties of what soon appears to be a loveless marriage of convenience.
    As a partner, it appears our not inconsiderable voice becomes largely ignored, the 'love' has all but gone, and the only interaction is when the hand is opened to receive the money.
    You sit down to talk about it, tell them your concerns, and how unhappy you are, they just smile and say 'We shall talk about it another time' and you know you have got no where.

    Ultimately, you can stand it no longer 'the children' are deeply disturbed by the atmosphere, and you ask for a divorce.
    Obviously , there will be conditions, money, a lot of money is mentioned, and time , you cant go straight away , because they want you to stay.
    Not because they really want/love you, because they want your income, and you know this, you want an amicable split, NO ! they say.

    Years go by, and you are still entangled, but with no say in the marriage, even though you still pay for everything.
    Still you try to talk to them, but all they say is 'THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT !'
    You plead your case, all you want is a clean split, the reply 'Over my dead body'

    A cynical analysis perhaps ?

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    15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    The 'marriage' analogy is an interesting one.
    You say you didnt go into it thinking you would get 'good value', but then, you did it for a reason of some sort?

    We entered the EEC because we thought it would make trade easier, and it does.
    Despite the then leaders of this 'trade alliance' making many noises of ever closer union, and the fairly obvious path it was going to go, we kept in, and reaped  the 'benefits' of frictionless trade.
    A bit like marriage, this honeymoon period was relatively good ,despite the economic stresses of the time.
    But as in many relationships, the cracks begin to show after a while.
    An innocent sounding treaty here and there, and you find yourself bound by the ties of what soon appears to be a loveless marriage of convenience.
    As a partner, it appears our not inconsiderable voice becomes largely ignored, the 'love' has all but gone, and the only interaction is when the hand is opened to receive the money.
    You sit down to talk about it, tell them your concerns, and how unhappy you are, they just smile and say 'We shall talk about it another time' and you know you have got no where.

    Ultimately, you can stand it no longer 'the children' are deeply disturbed by the atmosphere, and you ask for a divorce.
    Obviously , there will be conditions, money, a lot of money is mentioned, and time , you cant go straight away , because they want you to stay.
    Not because they really want/love you, because they want your income, and you know this, you want an amicable split, NO ! they say.

    Years go by, and you are still entangled, but with no say in the marriage, even though you still pay for everything.
    Still you try to talk to them, but all they say is 'THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT !'
    You plead your case, all you want is a clean split, the reply 'Over my dead body'

    A cynical analysis perhaps ?

    Cynical perhaps, but an accurate analysis nonetheless. Good post.

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    1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

    Rewulf 

    I did it for those special ‘mummy and daddy cuddles’ ?

     

    You know, you dont have to be married to get them ? ?

    And you dont have to be in the EU to trade with it ,ask the swinging Swiss, or the naughty Norwegians !

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    3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

    You know, you dont have to be married to get them ? ?

    And you dont have to be in the EU to trade with it ,ask the swinging Swiss, or the naughty Norwegians !

    Oh I know all about the Swiss and Norwegians ?

    but I also know how expensive the cost of living there is- typical burger in one the hotels we stay at is over £30 and that’s without drinks.

     

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    11 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

    Oh I know all about the Swiss and Norwegians ?

    but I also know how expensive the cost of living there is- typical burger in one the hotels we stay at is over £30 and that’s without drinks.

     

    True but the Swiss make over $10000 dollars a month average GDP per capita, one of the richest on the planet.

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    Just now, 12gauge82 said:

    True but the Swiss make over $10000 dollars a month average GDP per capita, one of the richest on the planet.

    I don't know Switzerland, but do know Norway.  It is very expensive, but they have the pay to match and a very good standard of living.  They also have a fully paid up and funded pension scheme and have saved all their money raised by North Sea Oil - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

    Make no mistake, Norway has been immensely successful and very wise and is now a VERY, VERY rich country.

    Unlike us where we have never (as a State) saved our windfall from oil, but spent it all, and have never saved to fund pension liabilities (we are paying current pensions from current general taxation), Norway has saved wisely and has a HUGE (over 2 trillion dollars for the oil and pension funds together) saved up fund (on which they receive income) - we by contrast have an equally HUGE (also over 2 trillion dollars) borrowing debt - on which we are paying interest.

    If we had ever had a fund, I am quite sure the EU would have raided it, so perhaps it is a good thing we didn't from that point of view. 

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    2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

    Oh I know all about the Swiss and Norwegians ?

    but I also know how expensive the cost of living there is- typical burger in one the hotels we stay at is over £30 and that’s without drinks.

     

    Keeps the riff raff out ?

    But seriously, the argument of 'Look how bad the Swiss and Norwegians are doing for not being part of the EU club' is an unconvincing argument.
    And yes. I know the Norsemen have to pay to trade with the EU , but getting to sell all their oil and gas to us with reduced tax just makes their payments a drop in the ocean.
    You have to disect all these arguments about the 'advantages' of being a net contributing member of the EU, and try to see why you have to pay the exhorbitant wages of 50000 beurocrats to have these 'privileges'  when others pay nothing for them.

    9.32 billion euros a year.
    Thats what it costs to 'run' the EU.

    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-annual-budget/2017/

    Our net contribution last few years.
    EU_budget_transactions_historical.png

    Which , if you do a quick conversion makes the UK ,the EU s second biggest net contributors payment, just about cover the EU admin bill for the year.

    Does that make any sense to you ?
    It doesnt to me, it tells me that we are wasting a huge amount of money on a bloated gravy train of civil servants.

    A waste of time , money, and a crooked ,corrupt situation that unchecked, will get worse, and more expensive.

    So when Brussels and associated cronies are wriggling and whinging, trying  to get us to rethink, THEY are the ones fighting for survival.
    Make no mistake here, they are on the back foot, they have nothing to offer, all they can do is offer a trade tariff, which we could just as easily negotiate with member countries separately, unless of course the EU 'threatens ' them.
    WE ARE STILL NATION STATES no matter how you think about this, no EU member has handed control of their country over to Brussels.
    The whole sorry mess of them wants abolishing, and replacing with a small delegation from each country, elected preferably, and accountable, based in their own countries, meeting via video link or occasionally in person, so NO junkets !
    See how many clamour for the job then.
    Lets stop letting them push us around, theyve got nothing if we dont pay them.

    Edited by Rewulf

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    22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    Keeps the riff raff out ?

    But seriously, the argument of 'Look how bad the Swiss and Norwegians are doing for not being part of the EU club' is an unconvincing argument.
    And yes. I know the Norsemen have to pay to trade with the EU , but getting to sell all their oil and gas to us with reduced tax just makes their payments a drop in the ocean.
    You have to disect all these arguments about the 'advantages' of being a net contributing member of the EU, and try to see why you have to pay the exhorbitant wages of 50000 beurocrats to have these 'privileges'  when others pay nothing for them.

    9.32 billion euros a year.
    Thats what it costs to 'run' the EU.

    http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-annual-budget/2017/

    Our net contribution last few years.
    EU_budget_transactions_historical.png

    Which , if you do a quick conversion makes the UK ,the EU s second biggest net contributors payment, just about cover the EU admin bill for the year.

    Does that make any sense to you ?
    It doesnt to me, it tells me that we are wasting a huge amount of money on a bloated gravy train of civil servants.

    A waste of time , money, and a crooked ,corrupt situation that unchecked, will get worse, and more expensive.

    So when Brussels and associated cronies are wriggling and whinging, trying  to get us to rethink, THEY are the ones fighting for survival.
    Make no mistake here, they are on the back foot, they have nothing to offer, all they can do is offer a trade tariff, which we could just as easily negotiate with member countries separately, unless of course the EU 'threatens ' them.
    WE ARE STILL NATION STATES no matter how you think about this, no EU member has handed control of their country over to Brussels.
    The whole sorry mess of them wants abolishing, and replacing with a small delegation from each country, elected preferably, and accountable, based in their own countries, meeting via video link or occasionally in person, so NO junkets !
    See how many clamour for the job then.
    Lets stop letting them push us around, theyve got nothing if we dont pay them.

    Absolutely right, but sadly some can't see the wood for the trees

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    3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

    If we had ever had a fund, I am quite sure the EU would have raided it

    some of us had private funds - that prudent chancellor    chancer Broon raided that!!

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    4 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

    some of us had private funds - that prudent chancellor    chancer Broon raided that!!

    Don't I just know it!  Mine was part of his 'raid'.

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    I do genuinely believe that politicians generally but Cameron and Osborne in particular were so keen to remain out of laziness. They realised how much work was ahead of them if we voted Brexit. Remain on the other hand meant do nothing, sit back and let it all carry on as before. The quiet life.

    Cameron's visibly growing panic was obvious, after announcing the referendum he should have remained totally above the debate. That way he would have kept his dignity and his integrity. By refusing to give interviews or express an opinion he would have appeared Statesman Like. Impartial and unwilling to be seen to be interfering.

    He could have carried it off very well, but he didn't. 

     

     

    1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

    Don't I just know it!  Mine was part of his 'raid'.

    And me, and I will never forgive the slimey toad

    Edited by Vince Green

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    On 15/06/2018 at 10:16, JohnfromUK said:

    Perhaps someone might like to tell them?  The vast majority are there purely for themselves - and they have no intention of changing that.

    Just so!

    Just the usual Politicos way, laziness and the ability to push responsibility somewhere else, all allowing more time for snouting the trough.

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