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Moorland fire in Manchester


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18 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Controlled cutting/burning (or lack of it) is the moor management I was referring to!

I agree - this was forwarded to me by someone else.  I don't know the original author but I quote as it explains it better than I can;

"It's very clear reading the science on upland ecology that if we want to avoid the catastrophic fires that are happening on Saddleworth and other upland areas in the UK we have to reduce the 'fuel load' that feeds a fire to the extent that it ignites the underlying peat causing untold damage.

Whatever your views are on shooting, surely it is wrong to deny the contribution gamekeepers make in doing this vital work using controlled burning in the winter. This burning has the added advantage of creating a patchwork of varying heights of heather that results in, not only more grouse (which pays for this work) but other endangered upland breeding species such as curlew, lapwing and golden plover. This is why areas around managed grouse moors represent the last stronghold for these endangered (IUCN Red listed) species.

A paper published by Mackay and Tallis in 1996 concluded that - a decline in management standards because of shortage of gamekeepers after the First World War precipitated a catastrophic burn of moorland on Bowland in 1921. The alternative of mowing heather which is practiced by some conservation organisations leaves the 'fuel load' on the ground, so is likely to be less effective in preventing damaging fires than controlled burning.

Sadly for George Monbiot we will need to continue managing this ecosystem until he achieves his 'rewilding' ambitions and there is a full suite of large fauna living in the UK. These include Elk, reindeer, wild horse, forest bison, saga antelope, lynx, wolf and bear. It is true to say that when all these are present we can let nature correct the imbalance we created commencing over 2000 years ago when we started chopping down the trees."

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I think it's fair to say, especially in the case of the saddleworth fire, that a lack of managed burning in recent years in the area it started is one of the major reasons it got hold to the extent it has.  The original footage showed firefighters working in almost chest high degenerate heather and bracken.  The fuel load must have been phenomenal. 

I'm happy to be corrected, but I'd suggest one of the reasons they've been able to get some control over the saddleworth fire is that it worked it's way up into an area managed for grouse production where there was a lesser fuel load and more chance to break the fire up. 

The winter hill situation is a bit different as that's an area that is mainly grassland and overgrazed heather.  I accept that in dry conditions such as this that large areas of dry rough grazing will go up quickly.  

I'd be interested to know whether the repeat fire referred to by the poster above was on a true heather moor burned for heather regeneration and grouse production on a commercial basis, or on a grass moor. 

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How the fire started is a distraction, the real question that needs investigating is, what made the fire take/run the devastating course it has? 

Sorry to keep banging on about this but the anti shooting protectionists, left wing jealous class haters, and other ignorant social numpties are trying to mislead public opinion on controlled heather burning (moorland management) in their attempt to ban Grouse shooting, claiming it is vandalism and only done for the benefit of rich toffs to shoot Grouse!.......When in reality it is done for a variety of reasons, including regeneration and fire control, at the same time protecting some of our most endangered avian species!....yes moorland management helps produce Grouse for Sport! But It also provides employment on the estate, income and ancillary jobs to the area, and helps the riparian owners finance the upkeep and management of the moor!

Hopefully the shooting organisations will capitalise on what is becoming a major ecological disaster, and finally bury the antis deceitful attack on Grouse shooting using heather burning and other moorland management techniques as a stalking horse, in their crusade to ban Grouse shooting!

 

 

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5 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I did not suggest moor management would prevent it, I suggested moor management would have made it "unlikely it would have been such a massive,devastatingly destructive fire" 

Controlled cutting/burning (or lack of it) is the moor management I was referring to! 

I know what you meant, the point I made was an entire hill behind me burnt to the soil and the same thing happened 18 months later. Cutting burning old heather won't stop a fire spreading, all that will do is limit the intensity in the location it's removed from. Grass last years bracken etc. burns and spreads just as readily in these conditions, it'll blow on the wind until it finds something else to set a light. In conditions such as these everything bar the rock is flammable. 

We've has two sizeable fires in my parish so far this year, well big enough to make the news. Bring on the rain.  

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10 minutes ago, Uilleachan said:

I know what you meant, the point I made was an entire hill behind me burnt to the soil and the same thing happened 18 months later. Cutting burning old heather won't stop a fire spreading, all that will do is limit the intensity in the location it's removed from. Grass last years bracken etc. burns and spreads just as readily in these conditions, it'll blow on the wind until it finds something else to set a light. In conditions such as these everything bar the rock is flammable. 

We've has two sizeable fires in my parish so far this year, well big enough to make the news. Bring on the rain.  

Granted! I appreciate we will not stop moorland fires in hot weather, however as a first defence, what we can do is try to lessen the intensity of any fire and minimise the consequent damage to the moor, by proper management!

I think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet?

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Just wondering with a big wid fires like thiis and such dry conditions is it possible to burn controlled fire breaks, or just to great a risk of thoose spreading??

 

While i'm sure the army will be a great benefit with there 4x4's and heli's a few teams of keepers with argo's/softtracks and misters would also be a blessing.

I don't think many keepers willl burn nowadays and use fire beaters, most are onto pressure washer driven misters which are easier worked.

Be another good bot of PR if an org could get a few teams together, most grouse keepers will be relatively quite the now leaving the moor young birds  in peace

And has been said the shooting orgs should be going on the attck with this, it has shown many of the les  for wot they are

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they have been digging fire breaks, can't see them doing much because of the wind up there.

i thought it had gone up again the other night, coming home and the setting sun was lighting up the smoke that was rolling down the hill, looked amazing.

helicopter crews have also reported seeing other people trying to light more fires!!!!

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4 hours ago, scotslad said:

Just wondering with a big wid fires like thiis and such dry conditions is it possible to burn controlled fire breaks, or just to great a risk of thoose spreading??

 

While i'm sure the army will be a great benefit with there 4x4's and heli's a few teams of keepers with argo's/softtracks and misters would also be a blessing.

I don't think many keepers willl burn nowadays and use fire beaters, most are onto pressure washer driven misters which are easier worked.

Be another good bot of PR if an org could get a few teams together, most grouse keepers will be relatively quite the now leaving the moor young birds  in peace

And has been said the shooting orgs should be going on the attck with this, it has shown many of the les  for wot they are

Teams of keepers have been working alongside the fire service from the outset, particularly on the saddleworth fire. News outlet comment on this has been limited, as you might expect. 

I think they may have stepped aside a little now, but they were definitely involved at the outset, mainly as you say because they have the kit and experience to handle moorland fires. I imagine the fire brigade have been involved in an element of catch up and learning on the job with these events. 

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Cheers novice, i imagined they would be but only the more locally based, i thought if they got some boys down from say yorkshire/northumbria etc and got a big load of them.

Some of the off road equipment they'll have will be immense from ur argo's soft traks throu to volvo's and haag lunds,  would be a massive help even getting a squad to near the fire face without having to walk in

Is there many grouse moors in that area?? Not an area i know too well.

I think with Untied Utilities owning much ground surrounding the resivior the idea is they can conrol the use so control water quality/contaminants.. Can imagine this could have ssome serious water quality issues for smome time to come, as be plenty soot/carbon of surface run off  from such a large area, esp if into the peat itself. Also be a good chance of some serious soil/peat erosion over the next few years or even longer if top peat badly damaged.

Wot there experiencing is exactly wot they claim grouse keepers do/cause by burning all the time, which is nonsense, and as will be shown is exactly wot happens by not burning when a wild fire actually happens

This is an ideal chance for the orgs to really gain some positve PR just at a critical time before the 12th when much BS always starts to fly

 

Never done much burning myself, but know plenty of keepers who all say its hard work, and thats doing it throu the winter/early spring so can't even begin to imagine how hard it will be in this weather even getting on/off the moor.

 

My mate has been on a few wild fires as a fireman, but nothing near to this scale, thankfully, dunno how it is down south esp with big city brigades, but many of the FT firemen often take the mick out of the PT retained(pretend) firemen/rural stations but often those more rural part timers where the 1's with more experience of wild fires

 

I know wild fires in Oz seem to be getting worse/more sevre in recent times, but when u spoke to the old timers in the past the rural fire stations would have periodic burns of whole forests (just the same as with heather) idea being to burn all the dead wood/fuel so thatthe next fire won't burn so hot. Many ozzy trees plants are quite fire resistant as ong as fire not too hot andintense.

About 20 or so years ago when i was out there they lost a whole crew fighting a wild fire, wind turned on them so surrounded the fire truck and eventually it ran out of water. Poor sodfs, bloody scary stuff

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There are driving moors in that area, but as you say they're hamstrung by UU to a certain extent on what they can do, so they're never going to be top grouse producers. 

I understand that they pulled in keepers from elsewhere in the peak district and so had a fair few bods on the ground, but obviously not enough. 

What i do find interesting, although this relates more to the winter hill fire, is that they're apparently digging ditches as fire breaks. I appreciate these are desperate times, but it'll be very interesting to see if they're filled in afterwards. I suspect not, citing the cost involved. Imagine the run off damage that they'll bring to bear come winter. 

As i say, perhaps I'm being pessimistic, but i look forward to being wrong. 

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48 minutes ago, Mice! said:

can't imagine the fire fighters or army filling them in, hopefully united utilities will, but i doubt it 

RSPB are managing the moor - they should be the ones to fill them, or at least PAY to have them filled.  But since they are totally clueless about habitat management I am not going to hold my breath waiting.

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Can imagine on that scale would take a whole army of bodies (and meaning no offence to firefighter or soldiers ) but if u rounded upa team of 100 keepers with their own gear i'd imagine it would be fairly effective at controlling the fire, after all they do it  almost FT weather permitting for 3-4 months of the year

 

Intresting to hear there digging ditches, would be intresting to see wot the ditches look like, can't imagine wot we'd describe as a ditch being much good to a fire with the wind begind it.

 

Could see stripping vegetation/top soil of the top for a 30ishm break might be more benefical or a small sod bank and burn small conrolled fires into them.

In oz they will come in with big bulldozers D8/9's and just doze fire breaks in the trees

I know some drier moors in scotland put in dew drains around dry hills which basically follow the contours to trap water and benefit quite a lot of wildlife. So with a bit of imagination it could create morr habitat when?/if the reinstating comes

Will be 1 hell of a clean up bill and a massive blow to the local ecosysytem, esp in short term but mibee surprising how quick it will recover.

Biggest problem will be lack of any nesting cover for next 4-5 years

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1 hour ago, scotslad said:

 

Can imagine on that scale would take a whole army of bodies (and meaning no offence to firefighter or soldiers ) but if u rounded upa team of 100 keepers with their own gear i'd imagine it would be fairly effective at controlling the fire, after all they do it  almost FT weather permitting for 3-4 months of the year

 

Intresting to hear there digging ditches, would be intresting to see wot the ditches look like, can't imagine wot we'd describe as a ditch being much good to a fire with the wind begind it.

 

Could see stripping vegetation/top soil of the top for a 30ishm break might be more benefical or a small sod bank and burn small conrolled fires into them.

In oz they will come in with big bulldozers D8/9's and just doze fire breaks in the trees

I know some drier moors in scotland put in dew drains around dry hills which basically follow the contours to trap water and benefit quite a lot of wildlife. So with a bit of imagination it could create morr habitat when?/if the reinstating comes

Will be 1 hell of a clean up bill and a massive blow to the local ecosysytem, esp in short term but mibee surprising how quick it will recover.

Biggest problem will be lack of any nesting cover for next 4-5 years

The idea of digging ditches is to dig them and then soak them with the reservoir buckets of water this creates a decent fire break, its not the surface burn that is dangerous its the underground peat burning that causes the unpredictable spread, from Auntie,.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 02/07/2018 at 19:26, Uilleachan said:

I know what you meant, the point I made was an entire hill behind me burnt to the soil and the same thing happened 18 months later. Cutting burning old heather won't stop a fire spreading, all that will do is limit the intensity in the location it's removed from. Grass last years bracken etc. burns and spreads just as readily in these conditions, it'll blow on the wind until it finds something else to set a light. In conditions such as these everything bar the rock is flammable. 

We've has two sizeable fires in my parish so far this year, well big enough to make the news. Bring on the rain.  

I had heard that one had got to the outskirts of Diabaig. Honeymooned in Torridon last year and the wife still keeps tabs on the wonderful restaurant in the harbour at Diabaig.

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21 hours ago, Penelope said:

I had heard that one had got to the outskirts of Diabaig. Honeymooned in Torridon last year and the wife still keeps tabs on the wonderful restaurant in the harbour at Diabaig.

Thats right, took a couple of days to deal with it as there was another hill fire burning concurrently in strath carron, at achantee/attadale estate. 

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