Novochick strikes again!

[ordnance]

Quote

It seems odd in regard of the chap who created the agent quoting "there is no cure" and "if it's novochok, it kills in 100% of cases!" Then Skripal and his daughter miraculously walk out of hospital.

The Skripals have survived because they've had great medical care," says Prof Hay.

"I'm sure if the paramedics hadn't been on the scene as quickly as they were - and were able to ensure that the Skripals kept breathing - they wouldn't have survived."

The precise way novichok is metabolised by the body is not fully known, says Prof Hay.

However, if someone can be kept alive long enough after the initial poisoning, then the body stands a chance of ridding itself of the toxin.

"The nerve agents are eventually metabolised and excreted from the body," explains the professor.

"So it's highly unlikely there is any nerve agent present… after even a couple of weeks.

"We don't know too much about how these compounds are metabolised, but we do know they would eventually be excreted."

It is possible that Ms Skripal, 33, and her father, 66, were sedated to reduce stress on the brain while the body flushed out the nerve agent.

Edited July 6, 2018 by ordnance

[Lord Geordie]

3 hours ago, ordnance said:

The Skripals have survived because they've had great medical care," says Prof Hay.

"I'm sure if the paramedics hadn't been on the scene as quickly as they were - and were able to ensure that the Skripals kept breathing - they wouldn't have survived."

The precise way novichok is metabolised by the body is not fully known, says Prof Hay.

However, if someone can be kept alive long enough after the initial poisoning, then the body stands a chance of ridding itself of the toxin.

"The nerve agents are eventually metabolised and excreted from the body," explains the professor.

"So it's highly unlikely there is any nerve agent present… after even a couple of weeks.

"We don't know too much about how these compounds are metabolised, but we do know they would eventually be excreted."

It is possible that Ms Skripal, 33, and her father, 66, were sedated to reduce stress on the brain while the body flushed out the nerve agent.

Or perhaps it's a cover to try and pass off a substance that carries a close chemical similarity as novochok, as actually BEING novochok? I am not a chemist! But I am also not convinced this is actually novochok that was actually used as the poison! But rather a substance that has VERY close symptoms. Why didn't they use polonium again? If it was an assassination then surely it would have been successful. They don't clown with a "maybe" substance! I still don't believe this was Kremlin sanctioned! 

[Hamster]

20 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

Or perhaps it's a cover to try and pass off a substance that carries a close chemical similarity as novochok, as actually BEING novochok? I am not a chemist! But I am also not convinced this is actually novochok that was actually used as the poison! But rather a substance that has VERY close symptoms. Why didn't they use polonium again? If it was an assassination then surely it would have been successful. They don't clown with a "maybe" substance! I still don't believe this was Kremlin sanctioned! 

Exactly, lets just get real for half a minute or so here, MILITARY grade hot sauce would kill most people let alone noviruddychok ! There are some very clever people and organs out there who do nothing but plan this sort of thing to the nth degree, this alternative substance was planned and meticulously planted on the first couple and the new victims were selected because their lifestyle fits the "accidental" aftermath story. Tis not novichok but chock full of con. 

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, ordnance said:

The Skripals have survived because they've had great medical care," says Prof Hay.

"I'm sure if the paramedics hadn't been on the scene as quickly as they were - and were able to ensure that the Skripals kept breathing - they wouldn't have survived."

The precise way novichok is metabolised by the body is not fully known, says Prof Hay.

However, if someone can be kept alive long enough after the initial poisoning, then the body stands a chance of ridding itself of the toxin.

"The nerve agents are eventually metabolised and excreted from the body," explains the professor.

"So it's highly unlikely there is any nerve agent present… after even a couple of weeks.

"We don't know too much about how these compounds are metabolised, but we do know they would eventually be excreted."

It is possible that Ms Skripal, 33, and her father, 66, were sedated to reduce stress on the brain while the body flushed out the nerve agent.

The latest is that a shower of rain diluted the toxin on his door handle, it's only took 5 months to come to this conclusion.

Whilst £1 mil has been put aside to purchase Skripals house and car, and for some reason DS Baileys house too , security reasons are sited, and demolition has not been ruled out.

No word yet on the compulsory purchase and demolition of the Mill pub and Zizzis, that the Skripals smeared deadly nerve agent all over in the 6 hours they wined and dined their way around Salisbury, before succumbing to the toxin.

In the new case it would seem the deadly ' military grade' nerve agent still doesn't seem that deadly, as it takes many hours to incapacitate.

Emergency services in the area will be very busy this summer, as some of the mamba and spice  zombies that inhabit the place ,will get a rude space suited surprise once they start staggering around.

 

[ordnance]

Quote

Or perhaps it's a cover to try and pass off a substance that carries a close chemical similarity as novochok, as actually BEING novochok?

I am no expert either, so i will go with what the experts at Proton Down and  the OPCW say, rather that what internet forum experts think. 

Quote

 

The international chemical weapons watchdog has backed the UK’s findings on the identity of the chemical used to poison the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury.

 

Quote

Porton Down. Following the detailed analysis of these samples, we can confirm that the man and woman have been exposed to the nerve agent Novichok, which has been identified as the same nerve agent that contaminated both Yulia and Sergei Skripal."

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by ordnance

[Hamster]

13 minutes ago, ordnance said:

I am no expert either, so i will go with what the experts at Proton Down and  the OPCW say, rather that what internet forum experts think. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/05/novichok-wiltshire-poisoning-russia-putin-world-cup?CMP=share_btn_fb

By the way missing from the msm news is that NO nerve/chemical agents have been found by OPCW  in Syria's Douma, instead chlorine traces (as supplied by the West to the friendly rebels) were found. 

Trouble with the experts at Porton Down is that they seem to be changing their story and failing to explain how this deadly substance is failing to kill and why it has not been necessary to demolish or at least jet wash the restaurant and the neighbourhood the Skirpals frequented. 

 

[ordnance]

34 minutes ago, Hamster said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/05/novichok-wiltshire-poisoning-russia-putin-world-cup?CMP=share_btn_fb

By the way missing from the msm news is that NO nerve/chemical agents have been found by OPCW  in Syria's Douma, instead chlorine traces (as supplied by the West to the friendly rebels) were found. 

Trouble with the experts at Porton Down is that they seem to be changing their story and failing to explain how this deadly substance is failing to kill and why it has not been necessary to demolish or at least jet wash the restaurant and the neighbourhood the Skirpals frequented. 

 

Yeah just one big conspiracy, involving the police, NHS, Army, Fire Brigade,Proton Down, the OPCW European and American governments, etc. just to upset the Russians. Makes perfect sense. 

[Hamster]

7 hours ago, ordnance said:

Yeah just one big conspiracy, involving the police, NHS, Army, Fire Brigade,Proton Down, the OPCW European and American governments, etc. just to upset the Russians. Makes perfect sense. 

There have been even bigger conspiracies, 9-11, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen (total blackout of biblical suffering there in the msm), soon to be Iran.................Skirpal is chicken feed in comparison and as mentioned already the reason it works is because most of the actors are oblivious that they're in a play. Own the media and you can make anyone believe anything. The media are willing accomplices, most know the score some pretend they don't and a few actually believe they're the good guys. 

If tomorrow they told you I was an accomplice and had been discovered to be a sleeping cell ?  ?  for the Russian and Iranian underworld you and everyone else will draw gasps of disbelief and believe every single word. 

[Hamster]

 

Above is just a small sample of how your msm lies so effectively. 

A lie can travel half way round the world while the truth is still putting its shoes on - Mark Twain.

[Hamster]

The lies don't even have to be believable : ?  ?

 

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, Hamster said:

 

If tomorrow they told you I was an accomplice and had been discovered to be a sleeping cell ?  ?  for the Russian and Iranian underworld you and everyone else will draw gasps of disbelief and believe every single word. 

No I wouldn’t. Give us a bit of credit please; we’re not all gullible idiots or fantasists who see conspiracies at every turn. Some of us just don’t care; after all, we have lives to get on with. 

Let us know what YOU intend to do with your seemingly superior knowledge....unless it’s all just theory of course. 

I don’t mind you constantly rabbiting on about such things, but when You constantly insult people with your persistent low regard for their intelligence, simply because they don’t buy into your theories, I find it annoying. 

If you’re so clever why don’t you find a forum where your superior intelligence may be appreciated?  

 

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

No I wouldn’t. Give us a bit of credit please; we’re not all gullible idiots or fantasists who see conspiracies at every turn. Some of us just don’t care; after all, we have lives to get on with. 

Let us know what YOU intend to do with your seemingly superior knowledge....unless it’s all just theory of course. 

I don’t mind you constantly rabbiting on about such things, but when You constantly insult people with your persistent low regard for their intelligence, simply because they don’t buy into your theories, I find it annoying. 

If you’re so clever why don’t you find a forum where your superior intelligence may be appreciated?  

 

I have, one of them is called PigeonWatch, I have no idea what you're going on about regarding my so called superior intelligence etc, I have never alluded to such but merely presented counter arguments. 

Yet again you use that tired old line of what do YOU intend to do about it..........................what does that even mean ? Do you throw that line at everything/everyone you find annoying ? 

People will believe what they're told on the news and even if they don't they'll still go along with it, that's all that matters. 

[Hamster]

Judging by the number of views V replies this thread appears to be of some interest to many forum members, perhaps those who find it annoying ought to consider ignoring it, just a thought. 

[ordnance]

Quote

People will believe what they're told on the news and even if they don't they'll still go along with it, that's all that matters. 

People get information from the media, they don't necessarily beleave it they make a judgement. Where do you get your information and views from, the twilight zone maybe. You do the usual conspiracy thing trough out wild theories accusations with absolutely no evidence, and dismiss any real evidence as just part of the conspiracy.  But if it makes you feel better more secure fine.  

Quote

 Other studies reveal that conspiracy theories help people make sense of the world when they feel out of control, are anxious or feel powerless if their needs are threatened. People can find it difficult to accept that we live in a world where random acts of violence, such as mass-murder.

 

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, ordnance said:

People get information from the media, they don't necessarily beleave it they make a judgement. 

 

You could argue all day long about the strange conundrum that statement throws up, but I will try to summarise.

'People get information from the media'
Yes they do, for most people thats the only source of news they have, you cant really count talking to you friends/ family ect , because they use , broadly the same sources.
The media doesnt  always invent stories, most of the time their news is based on commercial and governmental stats and news briefs/ statements, or interviews with private or civil persons, on occasion it has been later proven (sometimes) these sources were either blatently false , or tactically misleading.

'They dont necessarily believe it'
So are you saying that the source of our world view when it comes to home and world events is suspect ?
The fact you say that we dont always believe it to be true, and needs analysis and 'judgement' seems to say that you and yours are not exactly trusting of the this media.
Are you inadvertantly saying you dont really trust the government, and are in fact a bit of a conspiracy theorist ?

'they make a judgement'
Obviously in this case, you have made your analysis, based on your knowledge of the world and its workings.
Come to the conclusion, that the government line is the true one.
Which, with respect, is your right.
However, do you think the UK government has a proven track record of sincerity ?
Have they never lied to further their home and foreign agenda ?

You know the answer to the last question.

 In the case of the Skripals, I personally see more reason to not trust the official government line, than to believe it.
Simply because they have more to gain in political brownie points by accusing Russia, but more importantly levelling the blame squarely at Putin.
What Russia has to gain from it is absolutely nothing but negative press/sanctions.
Go figure.

[Hamster]

?☝️??

[ordnance]

Quote

They dont necessarily believe it'
So are you saying that the source of our world view when it comes to home and world events is suspect ?
The fact you say that we dont always believe it to be true, and needs analysis and 'judgement' seems to say that you and yours are not exactly trusting of the this media.
Are you inadvertantly saying you dont really trust the government, and are in fact a bit of a conspiracy theorist ?

Anyone that believes any government on everything they say is extremely naive, we have being shafted to many times by successive British governments in this part of the UK to beleave  everything they say, but that doesn't i don't  beleave anything they say.  As i said i look at different sources and make a judgement, In this case for example sources like Proton Down, the OPCW and others and make a judgement, that could be wrong and i would change my view if evidence came to light to say different. What i do not do jump on the conspiracy bandwagon with absolutely no evidence , doing that is what i call being naive. 

 

Quote

 

You know the answer to the last question.

 In the case of the Skripals, I personally see more reason to not trust the official government line, than to believe it.
Simply because they have more to gain in political brownie points by accusing Russia, but more importantly levelling the blame squarely at Putin.
What Russia has to gain from it is absolutely nothing but negative press/sanction

  

 

Fair enough, then give me your version of events how and why by who. I am happy to consider a different version of what happened, as long as there is some evidence to back it up that makes it more convincing than the official line. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by ordnance

[Retsdon]

The story seems to have dropped off the front page. I suppose that must either be  because it's no longer considered particularly newsworthy, or else because the government has clammed up and there's no information forthcoming. My guess is that it's probably the latter.

But time should reveal a lot. The government was very quick (again) to  point the finger at Russia, but again there seems to be a singular lack of hard evidence  and you would think, given how skeptical people seem to be,  that the government would present any evidence  it had were it there to be presented in the first place. In the meantime, Javid whatshisname says that the government is going to consult allies and seek a joint response. Again, this a re-run of the Skripal incident.

Last time, although there were some doubtful voices, western governments  went along with the Russia thing even if not with much apparent enthusiasm.  Seeing as the victims this time are an even less likely target for the Russian secret services, you'd have to think that the government would need genuine evidence to get the backing that they are looking for. Consequently if there's no news within a week or so, I think it would be safe to assume that the allies are not too impressed. . 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Anyone that believes any government on everything they say is extremely naive,

 

Fair enough, then give me your version of events how and why by who. I am happy to consider a different version of what happened, as long as there is some evidence to back it up that makes it more convincing than the official line. 

Weve been here before, but its good to know that you dont trust the government as much as you seemed to last debate.

I cant give you a version of events, what I can give you is a version of evidence that flys in the face of the official line.

No1 The Skripals were poisoned with novichock.
The only agency that could (and has) physically take samples from the scene is the governments facility at Porton down.
The OPCW was given a sample by Porton down and rather non commitedly said it was a novichok family of nerve agents.
No independent tests have been carried out by any other agency on the site(s) of contamination or indeed the Skripals, in fact the UK government forbade any independent investigation.
To clarify, no one except our own government can confirm novichok was used, and with its own stocks of novichok (for research purposes) could easily have supplied that to the OPCW.

No2 The 'deadly' nerve agent.
Whatever you think about the above analysis, there is a pretty big hole in the whole story, no one is dead.
The seemingly lethal WMD , that is 7-8 times stronger than VX  (our own top of the line nerve agent) isnt that lethal obviously.
I know you have said that they got excellent care from the NHS , but it was 24 hours before they even knew it was a nerve toxin, then another 24 hours before they knew it was novichok , which requires different treatment than the usual vanilla nerve agents.
Either way, skin contact should produce symptoms in a few minutes, symptoms that Skripal would been trained to recognise, as a former para and GRU agent.
This doomsday chemical '1 drop can kill a 100 people' should incapacitate and kill in well under an hour, it wouldnt be much good if it got sprayed into the target zone and the target is still fighting 5-6 hours later would it ?
But Skripal and daughter left home (where he was supposedly exposed) drove around, fed the ducks, surrounded by kids, had a few beers, and then walked round the corner to Zizzis, had a bit of a wait for his pizza ,ate it , and then walked out and BAM !

DS Bailey, once exposed to the Skripals, who had been in contact with multiple persons, surfaces and places, goes down virtually immediately ?

No3 Motive
Weigh up the pros and cons of our own government and the Russian governments  motives.
It doesnt really take a lot of thinking about, you had bumbling Boris accusing the Russkies of foul play before they even knew what was wrong with the Skripals!
Novichok can only have come from Russia ! - Blatently untrue, as was revealed once every media outlet have finished their feeding frenzy.
Its what Russia does with its ex spies ! Does it ? Lots of Russian ex spies seem to be OK , maybe vlad hasnt got to them yet ?

Obviously this is all food for thought, and any version different to the governments cant be proved, but the governments version cant be proved either, because they havnt allowed independent scrutiny, you just have to believe them..or not.
They wouldnt lie surely ?

[ordnance]

 

Quote

Rewulf No1 The Skripals were poisoned with novichock.
The only agency that could (and has) physically take samples from the scene is the governments facility at Porton down.
The OPCW was given a sample by Porton down and rather non commitedly said it was a novichok family of nerve agents.
No independent tests have been carried out by any other agency on the site(s) of contamination or indeed the Skripals, in fact the UK government forbade any independent investigatio

The OPCW is the independent body that investigates chemical weapons attack, who else would you suggest tested it. ? 

Quote

Rewulf The only agency that could (and has) physically take samples from the scene is the governments facility at Porton down.
The OPCW was given a sample by Porton down and rather non commitedly said it was a novichok family of nerve a

Wrong again. 

Quote

The OPCW had access to blood samples, which were consistent with exposure of the patients to a nerve agent which got into the bloodstream and caused the reported effects, and also conducted on-site sampling of environmental samples, which was consistent with presence of the same nerve agent at these sites. Thus, environmental and biomedical data are consistent with presence and patient exposure to a nerve agent.

 

 

Quote

Rewulf The OPCW was given a sample by Porton down and rather non commitedly said it was a novichok family of nerve agents.

No they said they agreed with the UK.

Quote

 

 The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”

 

 

 

Quote

Rewulf No2 The 'deadly' nerve agent.
Whatever you think about the above analysis, there is a pretty big hole in the whole story, no one is dead.
The seemingly lethal WMD , that is 7-8 times stronger than VX  (our own top of the line nerve agent) isnt that lethal obviously.
I know you have said that they got excellent care from the NHS , but it was 24 hours before they even knew it was a nerve toxin, then another 24 hours before they knew it was novichok , which requires different treatment than the usual vanilla nerve agents.
Either way, skin contact should produce symptoms in a few minutes, symptoms that Skripal would been trained to recognise, as a former para and GRU agent.
This doomsday chemical '1 drop can kill a 100 people' should incapacitate and kill in well under an hour, it wouldnt be much good if it got sprayed into the target zone and the target is still fighting 5-6 hours later would it ?
But Skripal and daughter left home (where he was supposedly exposed) drove around, fed the ducks, surrounded by kids, had a few beers, and then walked round the corner to Zizzis, had a bit of a wait for his pizza ,ate it , and then walked out and BAM !

That all depends how and how much they were exposed to, do you know how much they were exposed to. ?

Edited July 7, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

The OPCW is the independent body that investigates chemical weapons attack, who else would you suggest tested it. ? 

Wrong again. 

 

 

No they said they agreed with the UK.

That all depends how and how much they were exposed to, do you know how much they were exposed to. ?

WHEN did the OPCW  do its 'on site' investigation ? - Months later, it relied on our own investigations, in the absence of fresh evidence.
It also relied on samples of blood ect , supplied by us, it did not take samples itself directly from the Skripals.
If they hadnt been spirited away and kept virtually incommunicado , a hair and tissue test NOW would cast light on whether they had ever  been exposed to novichok, but for 'security reasons' this has not been allowed.

Use your common sense , the agent has been applied to his door handle (allegedly) how much do you need to get a fatal dose, a bucket full over your head !

"The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”

"The OPCW had access to blood samples, which were consistent with exposure of the patients to a nerve agent which got into the bloodstream and caused the reported effects, and also conducted on-site sampling of environmental samples, which was consistent with presence of the same nerve agent at these sites. Thus, environmental and biomedical data are consistent with presence and patient exposure to a nerve agent."

Read that  back to yourself.
Where does it mention 'novichok' ? Thats what I meant by non commital.
They have worded the report to give them a get out if it all blows up in their face.

[JRDS]

On ‎05‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 09:04, JRDS said:

2 days before she shafts us on Brexit how coincidental!!

Well the shaftings out in the open, our so called Brexit Ministers should be hanging their heads in abject shame at the scale of the betrayal and their total lack of opposition to it.

[ordnance]

Quote

Read that  back to yourself.
Where does it mention 'novichok' ? Thats what I meant by non commital.
They have worded the report to give them a get out if it all blows up in their face

They said they agreed with the UK,s findings, the UK,s finding was that  novichok was used what part of that do you not understand. 

Quote

The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW teamconfirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”

Quote

Use your common sense , the agent has been applied to his door handle (allegedly) how much do you need to get a fatal dose, a bucket full over your head !

 The amount they received could of had something to do with their survival,  that is what some experts are saying not me because i don't know. Maybe they did not know about pigeon watch chemical weapons experts, or they would have being in touch for advice. 

Instead of innuendos spell it out for us what do you think happened, by who and why. ? You are as i said earlier, doing the usual conspiracy thing innuendos what ifs accusations etc with absolutely no evidence.  

[Retsdon]

54 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Instead of innuendos spell it out for us what do you think happened, by who and why. ?

Given this new incident my guess is a nutter from Porton Down,  So there's no ''why' about anything. The thing is, if these latest people were poisoned at random, why not the Skipals?  People always seek an explanation that conforms to their prejudice, so 'it's the Russians', or 'it's MI6, or whatever. But maybe it's just a common or garden psycho or else there's some other explanation that's precluded from coming out because it would clash with the governments precipitous -  'It must have been the Russkies!' -  announcements. And all these announcements have done is to muddy the water.

It's time for the government to behave responsibly. And that means that, in the absence of proper evidence, it refrains from accusation/speculation. On an aside, it just shows how far standards have sunk that this should even need to be mentioned. 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Retsdon

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

Instead of innuendos spell it out for us what do you think happened, by who and why. ? You are as i said earlier, doing the usual conspiracy thing innuendos what ifs accusations etc with absolutely no evidence.  

I'm not sure you're really bothering reading what I'm saying.

Have it your way ,the Russians are chucking nerve toxins all over our streets, not in the least bothered who is killed by it ( if Indeed anyone ever dies from it ) 

If that's the case why aren't we declaring war on them ,we've got the 100 percent concrete evidence haven't we ?

Why aren't we doing something really radical to show our displeasure? Send a few diplomat's home ,that really sends a message doesn't it lol! They just used a weapon of mass murder on our streets man, a weapon of war .

We take stronger action when a chlorine bomb gets dropped in Damascus (allegedly) Pathetic.