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18 hours ago, panoma1 said:

If politicians force a carp deal on the UK or conspire to impose another referendum, and the remainers carry on frustrating democracy to finally rob us of Brexit, they better watch out..........the frustrated/disempowered/disenfranchised voters of the UK may well turn to a new party (or a threatened new party lead by Nigel Farage!........In fact any new party!) who will promise them what they voted for...........Brexit...........the current, two main parties risk haemorrhaging votes to them!.........

I certainly would never vote for the Tories again whilst any of the current crop are involved....I couldn't vote Labour whilst Corbin, Mc Donall, Abbot and their momentum, commie buddies run the show, the Lib Dems are a joke.....so, apart from not voting (not an option for me!) what other choice would I have?

Same road for me.

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2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Alternatively, Parliament exercises it's sovereignty in the truest sense, makes a decision that the Brexit process isn't in the best interests of the country and revokes Article 50. This would not surprise me, the majority would take, and indeed prefer, this option. They would be backed up by the Lords.

The British public would erupt in a huge harrumph. But that would be it.

 

Not really, when you think parliaments job is to enact the will of the people, going against the largest democratic vote in the country would hardly be a exercise of sovereignty, more the act of a a dictatorship.

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4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not really, when you think parliaments job is to enact the will of the people, going against the largest democratic vote in the country would hardly be a exercise of sovereignty, more the act of a a dictatorship.

I think we've all fallen for believing that, shame it is starting to dawn on a large majority that it is not what "they" planned all along!

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7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not really, when you think parliaments job is to enact the will of the people, going against the largest democratic vote in the country would hardly be a exercise of sovereignty, more the act of a a dictatorship.

That isn't Parliaments job. We elect our MPs to make decisions on our behalf, not carry out our will I'm afraid.

 

Quote

Members of the House of Commons hold, in effect, a triple mandate. They represent all the people of their constituency, their party and the interests of the country. It is a tenet of representative democracy that MPs are not delegates for their constituents. This means that, while the views of constituents are frequently considered, the actions of MPs are governed by their determination of the best interests of their constituency, their party and the country as a whole.

http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/mps-and-political-artiesp

 

Edited by mick miller
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15 minutes ago, mick miller said:

That isn't Parliaments job. We elect our MPs to make decisions on our behalf, not carry out our will I'm afraid.

Why didnt we just ask them to vote on whether to leave or remain then, as instructed via poll in each constituency ?

Or if they dont want to carry out the will of the people who elected them, as is their JOB.
Next time around , or maybe even before, via a no confidence by election, make them JOB-LESS ?

 

26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The British public would erupt in a huge harrumph. But that would be it.

Are you sure about that ?
I think you underestimate the anger building up.

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23 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Im sorry but that link is both inaccurate and conflicting.
The 'party' political system within Parliament is an artificial construction for convenience.
It is no more than a series of alliances.
Parliament could quite conceivably function without it.

To say that the main job of an MP is anything other than to represent the people of that constituency (even if they didnt vote for him/her) is a fallacy, the duty of representing party and country must come a distant 2nd and 3rd.
As without the support of the voters in their constituency, any other issue is moot.

 

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Why didnt we just ask them to vote on whether to leave or remain then, as instructed via poll in each constituency ?

Because they couldn't decide themselves. The Tories have been historically split on this issue for decades. That's why the dopey Camerooooon handed it to us, confident we'd 'stick it to the anti-EU lot. We didn't (by a small margin) and he did a runner, knowing that he'd made an epic error and was unwilling to be party to the results of his decision. The country is split, the Tories are split, the divisions are deeper than ever. All round a good job, so your right. Next time your MP comes up for election, if they have contributed the the frustration of the referendum result, vote them out. Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery.

So, where do we find Cameron so that we can give him a swift, and hopefully painful kick in the klackers? That's the real question I guess.

Just now, Rewulf said:

ITo say that the main job of an MP is anything other than to represent the people of that constituency (even if they didnt vote for him/her) is a fallacy, the duty of representing party and country must come a distant 2nd and 3rd.

With the Tories it has always, and will always be, party first.

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2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

A delay in the vote will not change the outcome.

 

She'll never get it through Parliament!!!!!!!

But that has been patently obvious for weeks....these are cunning politicians despite the appearance ....they`re playing a planned deception trick on the electorate to rob us of Brexit.

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6 minutes ago, matone said:

But that has been patently obvious for weeks....these are cunning politicians despite the appearance ....they`re playing a planned deception trick on the electorate to rob us of Brexit.

Yup. I'm betting the ultimate outcome will be... scrap Brexit 'for the sake of the country, jobs, security (and the gravy train of EU jobs into our dotage, plus, let's not forget, 40 odd years of echoing EU decisions in a UK Parliament has left us unable to make a decision ourselves without considerable hand holding).

If you want to riot, fill your boots, you'll get rubber bullets and tear gassed till you give in (and tarred with the brush of being 'racist', 'far-right extremist' and all the other slurs in the process).

You have to love (the illusion of) democracy don't you?

Edited by mick miller
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3 minutes ago, mick miller said:

. Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery.

Indeed, but thats something to be contended with come the day.
If a labour candidate promises (presuming it hasnt already happened) a clean break from the EU as part of their campaign , or to spport that end within government, then this could go badly for a tory who didnt represent those constituents who wanted out.

There are a good few examples of vocal remain MPs who have done this , on both sides, soubry being a good example.

Like people have said, be careful what you wish for.

2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

If you want to riot, fill your boots, you'll get rubber bullets and tear gassed till you give in. You have to love (the illusion of) democracy haven't you?

Or next time that ballot paper comes round ,stick an x somewhere different to the mainstream parties.
There will be plenty about if this goes south.

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My plan is, if this goes south, to write across every ballot paper I get henceforth, in large, indelible letters, the word BREXIT. I'm sure 'they'll' take note.😶

A Liebour government will promise you Brexit, Remain, Unicorns at Christmas, the moon on a selfie stick, bigger norks, free money and just about anything else you want to hear in order to gain power.
 

If you want to put a tick in that box I have only two words to dissuade you.

Diane.

&

Abbot.

Edited by mick miller
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4 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Yup. I'm betting the ultimate outcome will be... scrap Brexit 'for the sake of the country, jobs, security (and the gravy train of EU jobs into our dotage, plus, let's not forget, 40 odd years of echoing EU decisions in a UK Parliament has left us unable to make a decision ourselves without considerable hand holding).

If you want to riot, fill your boots, you'll get rubber bullets and tear gassed till you give in (and tarred with the brush of being 'racist', 'far-right extremist' and all the other slurs in the process).

You have to love (the illusion of) democracy don't you?

Anyone with a doubt should listen to Enoch Powell`s speeches on the EU,they are amazingly current and indeed he could be describing the current deceit of the nation that is being played out by the faceless Mandarins !

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1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Now that Mrs Mays vote has been delayed, anyone got any bets on what her and her remaniac chums next plan will be to subvert democracy?

She cares not one jot about any of it, PM's wages for life, sell out the country and get paid for it? 

The real problem here is that you can't force politicos to give a fig by virtue of the parliamentary set up, in government...win. Out of government....win?

They certainly don't need Horlicks to sleep at night.

Edited by old man
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On 08/12/2018 at 20:31, Newbie to this said:

seems project fear isn't a new thing!

 

No,and the lack of spirit shown by most MP`s in comparison to Shore,Powell ,Rees-Mogg etc is similarly not new sadly.

Great men who could/can see the lies but a Parliament of trough cleaners with only their own interests at heart !

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10 minutes ago, mick miller said:

My plan is, if this goes south, to write across every ballot paper I get henceforth, in large, indelible letters, the word BREXIT. I'm sure 'they'll' take note.

Having attended counts in the past, a spoiled paper is just that - a spoiled paper - no one even reads what is on it - let alone does anything.

 

12 minutes ago, mick miller said:

A Liebour government will promise you Brexit, Remain, Unicorns at Christmas, the moon on a selfie stick, bigger norks, free money and just about anything else you want to hear in order to gain power.

Correct - and to quote another post of yours "Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery."  I would add high interest rates giving unaffordable mortgage repayments, inflation, unemployment and strikes.  In fact a good old traditional labour government.

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12 minutes ago, mick miller said:

A Liebour government will promise you Brexit, Remain, Unicorns at Christmas, the moon on a selfie stick, bigger norks, free money and just about anything else you want to hear in order to gain power.

Dont doubt it for a moment, theyve done it before , they will try it again, but people do remember the lies.

UKIP got 4 m votes in 2015, in 2017 , people thought they had achieved their objective and went back to their traditional mainstream parties.
As a political party they were spent.
They were never a threat to government, they barely achieved a single MP , but what they did do was drag votes away from other parties, they could indeed have been kingmakers in a sense.
If Brexit isnt delivered, something like this could happen again, it could end up with a core of tory and labour rebels setting up a party to continue fighting for Brexit ?

Its not a pipe dream, 17.4 m possible voters , disillusioned with the mainstream who didnt deliver what was voted for, some fresh faces, money and publicity, could smash the opposition to pieces.

Dare to believe ?

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On 05/12/2018 at 08:37, oowee said:

^^^^ true but democracy has spoken for Brexit and we must now go through the process of sorting it out. Hopefully he wont get in but when the country votes for disruptive change who knows where the train will stop. That said I am sure those voting knew what they were doing. 

Yes, they did!

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Not really, when you think parliaments job is to enact the will of the people, going against the largest democratic vote in the country would hardly be a exercise of sovereignty, more the act of a a dictatorship.

Correct! We fought for a thousand years for one man , one vote, and the majority wins!  Any government opposing that will be defeated at an election, and a current Opposition complicit with the treachery, will probably only rule for one term. It will give time for a new Party, one that listens to the majority, and carries out its will...............I have no idea who that will be, but it will get the support from me, and my extended family! We are fed up with the garbage we have been fed for the last 30 months!

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9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dont doubt it for a moment, theyve done it before , they will try it again, but people do remember the lies.

UKIP got 4 m votes in 2015, in 2017 , people thought they had achieved their objective and went back to their traditional mainstream parties.
As a political party they were spent.
They were never a threat to government, they barely achieved a single MP , but what they did do was drag votes away from other parties, they could indeed have been kingmakers in a sense.
If Brexit isnt delivered, something like this could happen again, it could end up with a core of tory and labour rebels setting up a party to continue fighting for Brexit ?

Its not a pipe dream, 17.4 m possible voters , disillusioned with the mainstream who didnt deliver what was voted for, some fresh faces, money and publicity, could smash the opposition to pieces.

Dare to believe ?

That would be good but remember but remember `the gang of four`! Had more joined them they may have become a real force but predictably the rest thought of themselves and stayed close to the trough .....

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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Why didnt we just ask them to vote on whether to leave or remain then, as instructed via poll in each constituency ?

Or if they dont want to carry out the will of the people who elected them, as is their JOB.
Next time around , or maybe even before, via a no confidence by election, make them JOB-LESS ?

 

Are you sure about that ?
I think you underestimate the anger building up.

Those who went on the Brexit means exit march might have been taken more seriously if they'd worn high vis yellow jackets.

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1 hour ago, mick miller said:

That isn't Parliaments job. We elect our MPs to make decisions on our behalf, not carry out our will I'm afraid.

 

 

The House of Commons voted OVERWHELMINGLY to carry out the will of the people in resopect to the Referendum result! Face it, 580, out of 650 MPs, voted for a Referendum, and supported the  principle of carrying out the country,s wishes! They cannot say that they now believe they should  go against the people! It,s bad enough  that they  have pre-election manifestos that they have neither the will, or the funds, to carry out! We are used to be lied to in this way, but the Referendum was a promise to carry out our wishes! They should do so, or resign from politics!

51 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Because they couldn't decide themselves. The Tories have been historically split on this issue for decades. That's why the dopey Camerooooon handed it to us, confident we'd 'stick it to the anti-EU lot. We didn't (by a small margin) and he did a runner, knowing that he'd made an epic error and was unwilling to be party to the results of his decision. The country is split, the Tories are split, the divisions are deeper than ever. All round a good job, so your right. Next time your MP comes up for election, if they have contributed the the frustration of the referendum result, vote them out. Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery.

So, where do we find Cameron so that we can give him a swift, and hopefully painful kick in the klackers? That's the real question I guess.

With the Tories it has always, and will always be, party first.

I see you ignore the fact that 580 (out of 650) MPs voted FOR a Referendum! That includes virtually all your pals in the Labour Party! They were just as complicit in this!

52 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Because they couldn't decide themselves. The Tories have been historically split on this issue for decades. That's why the dopey Camerooooon handed it to us, confident we'd 'stick it to the anti-EU lot. We didn't (by a small margin) and he did a runner, knowing that he'd made an epic error and was unwilling to be party to the results of his decision. The country is split, the Tories are split, the divisions are deeper than ever. All round a good job, so your right. Next time your MP comes up for election, if they have contributed the the frustration of the referendum result, vote them out. Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery.

So, where do we find Cameron so that we can give him a swift, and hopefully painful kick in the klackers? That's the real question I guess.

With the Tories it has always, and will always be, party first.

and 1.4 MILLION is not a small margin!

51 minutes ago, matone said:

But that has been patently obvious for weeks....these are cunning politicians despite the appearance ....they`re playing a planned deception trick on the electorate to rob us of Brexit.

Correct!

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44 minutes ago, mick miller said:

My plan is, if this goes south, to write across every ballot paper I get henceforth, in large, indelible letters, the word BREXIT. I'm sure 'they'll' take note.😶

A Liebour government will promise you Brexit, Remain, Unicorns at Christmas, the moon on a selfie stick, bigger norks, free money and just about anything else you want to hear in order to gain power.
 

If you want to put a tick in that box I have only two words to dissuade you.

Diane.

&

Abbot.

That,s a frightening thought!

43 minutes ago, matone said:

Anyone with a doubt should listen to Enoch Powell`s speeches on the EU,they are amazingly current and indeed he could be describing the current deceit of the nation that is being played out by the faceless Mandarins !

And just for the record (and the few  Labour supporters on here,)  Tony Benn stood side by side with Enoch Powell on this issue, and never wavered! And Corby, until he got his snout in the leadership trough, spent almost 35 years  opposing the EU....(he was, after all, Benn,s apprentice!)

37 minutes ago, matone said:

No,and the lack of spirit shown by most MP`s in comparison to Shore,Powell ,Rees-Mogg etc is similarly not new sadly.

Great men who could/can see the lies but a Parliament of trough cleaners with only their own interests at heart !

How very true!

34 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Having attended counts in the past, a spoiled paper is just that - a spoiled paper - no one even reads what is on it - let alone does anything.

 

Correct - and to quote another post of yours "Be aware though, that is likely to hand control of the country to a frothy-mouthed, marxist government and an immediate exit of jobs, manufacturing, a deep fall in the value of the pound and decades of resulting misery."  I would add high interest rates giving unaffordable mortgage repayments, inflation, unemployment and strikes.  In fact a good old traditional labour government.

Correct!

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26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dont doubt it for a moment, theyve done it before , they will try it again, but people do remember the lies.

UKIP got 4 m votes in 2015, in 2017 , people thought they had achieved their objective and went back to their traditional mainstream parties.
As a political party they were spent.
They were never a threat to government, they barely achieved a single MP , but what they did do was drag votes away from other parties, they could indeed have been kingmakers in a sense.
If Brexit isnt delivered, something like this could happen again, it could end up with a core of tory and labour rebels setting up a party to continue fighting for Brexit ?

Its not a pipe dream, 17.4 m possible voters , disillusioned with the mainstream who didnt deliver what was voted for, some fresh faces, money and publicity, could smash the opposition to pieces.

Dare to believe ?

I do dare to believe! In fact, I,ll campaign for them...........

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12 minutes ago, matone said:

That would be good but remember but remember `the gang of four`! Had more joined them they may have become a real force but predictably the rest thought of themselves and stayed close to the trough .....

Or live to fight another day ?

 

10 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Those who went on the Brexit means exit march might have been taken more seriously if they'd worn high vis yellow jackets.

Some wore orange ones, but its difficult to find any footage of the march.
Many are saying that only 1500 turned up, whilst counter protesters did 10 x that.
What I saw was a lot more than 1500, but there were no eyes in the sky to estimate properly.

1 minute ago, pinfireman said:

I do dare to believe! In fact, I,ll campaign for them...........

So will I .

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2 minutes ago, matone said:

That would be good but remember but remember `the gang of four`! Had more joined them they may have become a real force but predictably the rest thought of themselves and stayed close to the trough .....

The 'gang of four' suffered several disadvantages;

  • There were only four, Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Bill Rodgers and Shirley Williams
  • Roy Jenkins could talk a good story, but it was all waffle
  • David Owen was smarmy and hard to believe
  • Bill Rodgers seemed nice enough, but was fundamentally 'dull'
  • Shirley Williams like the sound of her own voice too much - and had lost her Labour seat, so had nothing to loose by giving it a try.
  • With only four of them, they joined up with the Liberals who had recently ditched Jeremy Thorpe who was engaged in dodgy practices that had led to a long MI5 file and his resignation and a near miss with court proceedings.  Many who might have supported the 'gang of four' wouldn't touch the liberals with a barge pole (and Thorpe wasn't the only dodgy one as Cyril Smith was a big player in the Liberals then.
  • They were VERY pro Europe (Jenkins had held what is now Junckers job then).

The intention was to be 'centre left', but the country didn't really want 'left at all then'.  Many of their 'ideas' were subsequently respun by Blair, Mandleson , Campbell and Co. - and found success as new Labour policy.

With

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